So with all the doom and gloom the past month, how bad is sorc?

GoodFella146

You look at the feedback section it's just endless doom and gloom. This suck this, this sucks that, i'm grinding this character now, i'm grinding that character now....

Ok so now that it's actually out and ppl are playing it, what the real result here? I don't see much discussion on the main section.

Was all that stuff overblown? Are sorcs still around in about the same numbers?

Slurg

Maybe it depends what content you are trying to do with your sorc? Mine is perfectly fine for Dark Brotherhood and Cadwell's, which is pretty much all I've had time for since the update when I'm not crafting. Don't know about PVP though- maybe that's what all the crying is about.

Emma_Overload

Sorcs are fine except for endgame content like VMA and PvP, where the pain is real. To some people, that's only 1% of the game, to others, it's like 99% of the game. If you are in the latter group, prepare to be disappointed.

phaneub17_ESO

You have to move around like everyone else now with the shield change, but otherwise it's not that bad. Pet builds have gone to crap though, they seem to have gotten weaker or maybe no longer scale after level 50.

Nestor

If your not chasing Leaderboard times, then the Sorcerer is just fine. PvP may have some challenges related to the lack of Hardened Ward duration.

Grao

GoodFella146 wrote: »

You look at the feedback section it's just endless doom and gloom. This suck this, this sucks that, i'm grinding this character now, i'm grinding that character now....

Ok so now that it's actually out and ppl are playing it, what the real result here? I don't see much discussion on the main section.

Was all that stuff overblown? Are sorcs still around in about the same numbers?

PvE Group content - We are on the same spot, low Utility, ok DPS, worse class for tanking, probably second worse class for healing.

PvE Solo content - We suffered a heavy hit here. Those well trained in VMA will be able to complete the content with the same build as before, but there will be a reasonable drop on scores for sorcerers. New players coming to this content with the class as is will suffer.

PvP - Apparently sorcerers are sufering to survive in PvP, but Negate is once again strong, so strap that Restoration staff, stack your shields, spam Healing Springs and Negate 'till the end of times. Don't duel as a sorcerer.

Pets - Still don't scale from CPs, so their damage is low, they are a little stronger against single target fights now, surviving for more than 10 seconds, but are weaker against mobs.

The doom and gloom about sorcerers are mostly because the class can be outperformed by one or another class in every conceivable role now, so exactly what is the point to playing a sorcerer? Are our builds fun to play with? No, actually because of the stupid number of toggles or passive abilities we need slotted, sorcerers are the most boring class in the game. Are our builds super flexible? No, the lack of key skills prevents sorcerers from having any build flexibility. There is simply no real reason to play a sorcerer this patch, our skills don't feel strong, several are just plain boring and the class has no role in which it out shines other classes.

Meanwhile DKs are the best tanks and DPS in the game, Templars are the best Healers and Nightblades are demons in PvP.

Makkir

Personally I think a lot of it was overblown, but to be honest the class is just not fun to play, too much a chore, and just not engaging (PvP perspective).

Minalan

Makkir wrote: »

Personally I think a lot of it was overblown, but to be honest the class is just not fun to play, too much a chore, and just not engaging (PvP perspective).

This pretty much. The dark brotherhood armor penetration is out of control, stacking up to 17K physical or spell penetration isn't exactly hard.

So impen or not, if a light armor sorc gets hit without shields, you're dead in a couple of shots. With six second shields, you pretty much get stunned and killed constantly.

And there is the root of our frustration. The big surge heal is long gone, shields don't always help you, and everyone has read the memo on 'stun and burst the sorc five seconds into his shield!'

However, if you're part of a group, not getting focused, and stay at range. Our damage hasn't been touched, we still kill people. But not everyone likes hiding in a Zerg.

KingYogi415

OP shields where equalized. There was no DPS nerf.

Cheers!

Grao

KingYogi415 wrote: »

OP shields where equalized. There was no DPS nerf.

Cheers!

Meanwhile all the other classes go on reflecting, Healing them selves like crazy or dodging everything...

Balance @Wrobel.

Thelon

Play Sorc
Don't play Sorc
You are too concerned with what was
And with what will be

There is an old saying:
Yesterday is history
Tomorrow is a mystery
But today is a gift

That's why it's called the present

Blud

Last night in Cyro, I didn't see many sorcs. No one in my guild runs a sorc in pvp any more. We have some very good pvpers and some casuals like me.

However, I did see one sorc in EP (Trueflame, NA) running around dominating people. This player had skill and didn't seem to be held back by playing a sorc. What I could see of his play style was that he was using 1h +shield, was constantly dodging, using cover, using streak, and buffing himself. It looked like a lot of work and effort, but the guy was easily able to handle much larger groups and carefully chose where he wanted to fight. I would have to be spastic and jacked up on Red Bull to play like that. Maybe 20 years younger as well. But still. He was good.

I'm too lazy and I just like to spam heals in pvp, but I have fun watching good pvpers

driosketch

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Sorcs are fine except for endgame content like VMA and PvP, where the pain is real.

You'll need to define what kind of PvP. As long as you have situational awareness and the minimum thought to balance of attack, defense, and regen, you can run quite a few builds for objective PvP.

mtwiggz

Grao wrote: »

GoodFella146 wrote: »

You look at the feedback section it's just endless doom and gloom. This suck this, this sucks that, i'm grinding this character now, i'm grinding that character now....

Ok so now that it's actually out and ppl are playing it, what the real result here? I don't see much discussion on the main section.

Was all that stuff overblown? Are sorcs still around in about the same numbers?

PvE Group content - We are on the same spot, low Utility, ok DPS, worse class for tanking, probably second worse class for healing.

PvE Solo content - We suffered a heavy hit here. Those well trained in VMA will be able to complete the content with the same build as before, but there will be a reasonable drop on scores for sorcerers. New players coming to this content with the class as is will suffer.

PvP - Apparently sorcerers are sufering to survive in PvP, but Negate is once again strong, so strap that Restoration staff, stack your shields, spam Healing Springs and Negate 'till the end of times. Don't duel as a sorcerer.

Pets - Still don't scale from CPs, so their damage is low, they are a little stronger against single target fights now, surviving for more than 10 seconds, but are weaker against mobs.

The doom and gloom about sorcerers are mostly because the class can be outperformed by one or another class in every conceivable role now, so exactly what is the point to playing a sorcerer? Are our builds fun to play with? No, actually because of the stupid number of toggles or passive abilities we need slotted, sorcerers are the most boring class in the game. Are our builds super flexible? No, the lack of key skills prevents sorcerers from having any build flexibility. There is simply no real reason to play a sorcerer this patch, our skills don't feel strong, several are just plain boring and the class has no role in which it out shines other classes.

Meanwhile DKs are the best tanks and DPS in the game, Templars are the best Healers and Nightblades are demons in PvP.

Hit the nail on the head here.

ContraTempo

Grao wrote: »

GoodFella146 wrote: »

You look at the feedback section it's just endless doom and gloom. This suck this, this sucks that, i'm grinding this character now, i'm grinding that character now....

Ok so now that it's actually out and ppl are playing it, what the real result here? I don't see much discussion on the main section.

Was all that stuff overblown? Are sorcs still around in about the same numbers?

PvE Group content - We are on the same spot, low Utility, ok DPS, worse class for tanking, probably second worse class for healing.

PvE Solo content - We suffered a heavy hit here. Those well trained in VMA will be able to complete the content with the same build as before, but there will be a reasonable drop on scores for sorcerers. New players coming to this content with the class as is will suffer.

PvP - Apparently sorcerers are sufering to survive in PvP, but Negate is once again strong, so strap that Restoration staff, stack your shields, spam Healing Springs and Negate 'till the end of times. Don't duel as a sorcerer.

Pets - Still don't scale from CPs, so their damage is low, they are a little stronger against single target fights now, surviving for more than 10 seconds, but are weaker against mobs.

The doom and gloom about sorcerers are mostly because the class can be outperformed by one or another class in every conceivable role now, so exactly what is the point to playing a sorcerer? Are our builds fun to play with? No, actually because of the stupid number of toggles or passive abilities we need slotted, sorcerers are the most boring class in the game. Are our builds super flexible? No, the lack of key skills prevents sorcerers from having any build flexibility. There is simply no real reason to play a sorcerer this patch, our skills don't feel strong, several are just plain boring and the class has no role in which it out shines other classes.

Meanwhile DKs are the best tanks and DPS in the game, Templars are the best Healers and Nightblades are demons in PvP.

This is a result of the idiotic "play as you like" concept. If we are going to have classes they need roles. We need to acknowledge that each class will be stronger than all other classes in one function and quit calling that OP. Quit making that the basis for calling for nerfs.

If we REALLY want "play as you like" we need to eliminate classes. Let every character choose any 3 "class" skill lines. That eliminates the possibility of any one class being OP since everyone has the same options available. That also opens up the possibility of having a fire skill line, a frost skill line, necromancy, etc.

Having classes be different and yet perform all functions equally well is obviously impossible. Trying to build "balanced" classes is a fool's errand and I'm surprised the creative people at ZOS ever started down such a path.

phairdon

Runs pet build in PVE. This covers delves, quests (dailies) & public dungeons without a hassle.

Makkir

Thelon wrote: »

Play Sorc
Don't play Sorc
You are too concerned with what was
And with what will be

There is an old saying:
Yesterday is history
Tomorrow is a mystery
But today is a gift

That's why it's called the present

I like presents.

GoodFella146

I'm not trying to argue about the changes made or anything, I'm mostly just interested in the results. Like VMA scores dropping, almost zero sorcs in PVP now, etc.

If the game's population in PVP for example is now (i'm making these up as an example) 60% nightblades, 25% DKs, 10% templars, and 5% sorcs, that's just bad for the game overall and clearly shows a real problem if it continues that way from here on.

Like if every top sorc you know ditches it for nightblades, there's a fundamental issue there.

Grao

ContraTempo wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

GoodFella146 wrote: »

You look at the feedback section it's just endless doom and gloom. This suck this, this sucks that, i'm grinding this character now, i'm grinding that character now....

Ok so now that it's actually out and ppl are playing it, what the real result here? I don't see much discussion on the main section.

Was all that stuff overblown? Are sorcs still around in about the same numbers?

PvE Group content - We are on the same spot, low Utility, ok DPS, worse class for tanking, probably second worse class for healing.

PvE Solo content - We suffered a heavy hit here. Those well trained in VMA will be able to complete the content with the same build as before, but there will be a reasonable drop on scores for sorcerers. New players coming to this content with the class as is will suffer.

PvP - Apparently sorcerers are sufering to survive in PvP, but Negate is once again strong, so strap that Restoration staff, stack your shields, spam Healing Springs and Negate 'till the end of times. Don't duel as a sorcerer.

Pets - Still don't scale from CPs, so their damage is low, they are a little stronger against single target fights now, surviving for more than 10 seconds, but are weaker against mobs.

The doom and gloom about sorcerers are mostly because the class can be outperformed by one or another class in every conceivable role now, so exactly what is the point to playing a sorcerer? Are our builds fun to play with? No, actually because of the stupid number of toggles or passive abilities we need slotted, sorcerers are the most boring class in the game. Are our builds super flexible? No, the lack of key skills prevents sorcerers from having any build flexibility. There is simply no real reason to play a sorcerer this patch, our skills don't feel strong, several are just plain boring and the class has no role in which it out shines other classes.

Meanwhile DKs are the best tanks and DPS in the game, Templars are the best Healers and Nightblades are demons in PvP.

This is a result of the idiotic "play as you like" concept. If we are going to have classes they need roles. We need to acknowledge that each class will be stronger than all other classes in one function and quit calling that OP. Quit making that the basis for calling for nerfs.

If we REALLY want "play as you like" we need to eliminate classes. Let every character choose any 3 "class" skill lines. That eliminates the possibility of any one class being OP since everyone has the same options available. That also opens up the possibility of having a fire skill line, a frost skill line, necromancy, etc.

Having classes be different and yet perform all functions equally well is obviously impossible. Trying to build "balanced" classes is a fool's errand and I'm surprised the creative people at ZOS ever started down such a path.

I don't have as much an issue with classes being 'viable' in all roles, the issue I have is that even after achieving such state, every class should still have an identity, and in MMOs the classes's identities are heavily tied with their specialized role. Each class should be the best in one role and when the game was released we were close to that...

DKs were the best tanks, Templars were the best healers, Nightblades were the best Stamina DPS (which admittedly was ruined by the number of broken skills the class was released with) and Sorcerers were the best Magicka DPS.

Two or three patches later though and that was already ruined, Sorcerers were nerfed, DKs were buffed and the down hill slippery slope never stopped. Right now we have Dks as the best tanks and DPS (the favorite child of the Developers), Templars still the best healers, Nightblades as the best in PvP and finally the Sorcerers, the black sheep with no specialty and no role they are great at...

Yes, @Trueflame can still PvP as a sorcerer and do well, but if you take a Nightblade of the same skill level and pair them 1v1... I am sorry, I put my gold on the Nightblade...

Kalante

i honestly do not get all these "mag sorc is now useless thread" i do not believe that BS because almost every single person with the flawless conqueror title are mag sorcs here on ps4. Yeah, so much for being a really "bad" PVE class as many people disproportionately make it look. Shields should had been able to be crit.

Valrien

Kalante wrote: »

i honestly do not get all these "mag sorc is now useless thread" i do not believe that BS because almost every single person with the flawless conqueror title are mag sorcs here on ps4. Yeah, so much for being a really "bad" PVE class as many people disproportionately make it look. Shields should had been able to be crit.

How is it fair that I have all my defenses unjustifiably nerfed as a magicka Sorc (Streak, shields, Surge) with no compensation while stamina classes continue to get stronger?

Makkir

Going to be honest here. Pre-DB I had a few low Vr toons that I used STRICTLY as crafting writ alts.

A week after DB launches I find my sorc really boring. I dusted off my templar since now he was cp160, paid a respec to magicka and am having a blast playing a Magplar. I have spent 99% of my time playing on my Sorc with no experience PvPing or PvEing on any other class.

I pulled some stuff out of my bank (3pc willpower, 5pc Kags, and Kena, something else) I wrecked a bunch of people last night in IC Sewers on my Magplar with just toppling, sweeps, and vampires bane since I really don't have many skill lines leveled. Not to mention, I got more telvar stones per hour than I ever did on my Sorc. I can't believe ANY other class has the audacity to complain about sorcs. Magplar = Ez mode. All I did was pull a guide off these forums, slots whatever skills I had, and it was the easiest adaption/transition I ever experienced in a game. The survivability, dps, and the comfort of the class was just so much more enjoyable. This isn't to say I couldn't accomplish that on my Sorc, but I am saying it's much more of a hassal, complication, boring, and un-engaging on a sorc.

Grao

Makkir wrote: »

Going to be honest here. Pre-DB I had a few low Vr toons that I used STRICTLY as crafting writ alts.

A week after DB launches I find my sorc really boring. I dusted off my templar since now he was cp160, paid a respec to magicka and am having a blast playing a Magplar. I have spent 99% of my time playing on my Sorc with no experience PvPing or PvEing on any other class.

I pulled some stuff out of my bank (3pc willpower, 5pc Kags, and Kena, something else) I wrecked a bunch of people last night in IC Sewers on my Magplar with just toppling, sweeps, and vampires bane since I really don't have many skill lines leveled. Not to mention, I got more telvar stones per hour than I ever did on my Sorc. I can't believe ANY other class has the audacity to complain about sorcs. Magplar = Ez mode. All I did was pull a guide off these forums, slots whatever skills I had, and it was the easiest adaption/transition I ever experienced in a game. The survivability, dps, and the comfort of the class was just so much more enjoyable. This isn't to say I couldn't accomplish that on my Sorc, but I am saying it's much more of a hassal, complication, boring, and un-engaging on a sorc.

And that is pretty much the conditions sorcerers are in right now. Yes, you can still play your sorcerer and complete content, but is it worth it? Sorcerers are the most boring class thanks to toggleness and the lack of basic skills and on top of being boring, its outperformed in every role by one of the other classes.

Makkir

I think a bit of it has to do with us needing to slot toggles in order to get major/minor buffs when just about everyone else has these already built into skills. I mean why can't mages wrath proc empower for example? Why can't bolt escape provide expedition buffs, since it's called..."escape?"

ContraTempo

Grao wrote: »

ContraTempo wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

GoodFella146 wrote: »

You look at the feedback section it's just endless doom and gloom. This suck this, this sucks that, i'm grinding this character now, i'm grinding that character now....

Ok so now that it's actually out and ppl are playing it, what the real result here? I don't see much discussion on the main section.

Was all that stuff overblown? Are sorcs still around in about the same numbers?

PvE Group content - We are on the same spot, low Utility, ok DPS, worse class for tanking, probably second worse class for healing.

PvE Solo content - We suffered a heavy hit here. Those well trained in VMA will be able to complete the content with the same build as before, but there will be a reasonable drop on scores for sorcerers. New players coming to this content with the class as is will suffer.

PvP - Apparently sorcerers are sufering to survive in PvP, but Negate is once again strong, so strap that Restoration staff, stack your shields, spam Healing Springs and Negate 'till the end of times. Don't duel as a sorcerer.

Pets - Still don't scale from CPs, so their damage is low, they are a little stronger against single target fights now, surviving for more than 10 seconds, but are weaker against mobs.

The doom and gloom about sorcerers are mostly because the class can be outperformed by one or another class in every conceivable role now, so exactly what is the point to playing a sorcerer? Are our builds fun to play with? No, actually because of the stupid number of toggles or passive abilities we need slotted, sorcerers are the most boring class in the game. Are our builds super flexible? No, the lack of key skills prevents sorcerers from having any build flexibility. There is simply no real reason to play a sorcerer this patch, our skills don't feel strong, several are just plain boring and the class has no role in which it out shines other classes.

Meanwhile DKs are the best tanks and DPS in the game, Templars are the best Healers and Nightblades are demons in PvP.

This is a result of the idiotic "play as you like" concept. If we are going to have classes they need roles. We need to acknowledge that each class will be stronger than all other classes in one function and quit calling that OP. Quit making that the basis for calling for nerfs.

If we REALLY want "play as you like" we need to eliminate classes. Let every character choose any 3 "class" skill lines. That eliminates the possibility of any one class being OP since everyone has the same options available. That also opens up the possibility of having a fire skill line, a frost skill line, necromancy, etc.

Having classes be different and yet perform all functions equally well is obviously impossible. Trying to build "balanced" classes is a fool's errand and I'm surprised the creative people at ZOS ever started down such a path.

I don't have as much an issue with classes being 'viable' in all roles, the issue I have is that even after achieving such state, every class should still have an identity, and in MMOs the classes's identities are heavily tied with their specialized role. Each class should be the best in one role and when the game was released we were close to that...

DKs were the best tanks, Templars were the best healers, Nightblades were the best Stamina DPS (which admittedly was ruined by the number of broken skills the class was released with) and Sorcerers were the best Magicka DPS.

Two or three patches later though and that was already ruined, Sorcerers were nerfed, DKs were buffed and the down hill slippery slope never stopped. Right now we have Dks as the best tanks and DPS (the favorite child of the Developers), Templars still the best healers, Nightblades as the best in PvP and finally the Sorcerers, the black sheep with no specialty and no role they are great at...

Yes, @Trueflame can still PvP as a sorcerer and do well, but if you take a Nightblade of the same skill level and pair them 1v1... I am sorry, I put my gold on the Nightblade...

To the degree that one class is better than the others in a particular role, that necessarily means they will not be equal in 1v1 PVP. If the nightblade will be best at single target burst DPS, it will be damn hard to fight him 1 on 1 and so others will shout OP, OP, OP! If the Dk is a great tank, he will be hard to kill and the NB who can't take him out like he can everyone else will shout OP, OP, OP! If the Templar is a great healer...that won't keep him alive in solo PVP but it makes him an essential part of a group so he will shout Buff Me! We don't have to speculate if this will happen, it is exactly what we have seen happen, over and over.

I'm not saying non-healers should not have any healing ability. I'm not saying healers should not have any DPS. That would be silly and make doing any solo PVE impossible. But specialists will be better than anyone else at what they specialize in.

It's a fundamental choice. Binary. One or the other. If you want to make characters truly equal in 1v1 you have to give them all the same options. If you want them to be best at certain roles, they won't be equal in 1v1. Pick one.

The mess happens when trying to balance too many competing concerns. Solo PVE vs Roles in Group PVE vs End game PVE vs Solo PVP, vs Roles in Group PVP. And some of those contradict. We will never get satisfactory balance in all these categories at once.

NBrookus

Makkir wrote: »

I dusted off my templar since now he was cp160, paid a respec to magicka and am having a blast playing a Magplar. I have spent 99% of my time playing on my Sorc with no experience PvPing or PvEing on any other class.

I pulled some stuff out of my bank (3pc willpower, 5pc Kags, and Kena, something else) I wrecked a bunch of people last night in IC Sewers on my Magplar with just toppling, sweeps, and vampires bane since I really don't have many skill lines leveled. Not to mention, I got more telvar stones per hour than I ever did on my Sorc. I can't believe ANY other class has the audacity to complain about sorcs. Magplar = Ez mode. All I did was pull a guide off these forums, slots whatever skills I had, and it was the easiest adaption/transition I ever experienced in a game. The survivability, dps, and the comfort of the class was just so much more enjoyable. This isn't to say I couldn't accomplish that on my Sorc, but I am saying it's much more of a hassal, complication, boring, and un-engaging on a sorc.

Pretty much what I did. Leveling a magplar was insanely easy to begin with. I created him to heal dungeons but he got respecced now I have a templar I PvP with. Templars have some issues, but compared to sorcs... everything just works so well together. And there are viable *options* for putting together skill bars!

STEVIL

GoodFella146 wrote: »

You look at the feedback section it's just endless doom and gloom. This suck this, this sucks that, i'm grinding this character now, i'm grinding that character now....

Ok so now that it's actually out and ppl are playing it, what the real result here? I don't see much discussion on the main section.

Was all that stuff overblown? Are sorcs still around in about the same numbers?

My main mag sorc if stronger than ever. Changed but not weaker.

My second sorc who had lotsa melee went stam sorc. Great so far.

Started new stam sorc from scratch... fantastic.

Sun still came up.

iam117

GoodFella146 wrote: »

You look at the feedback section it's just endless doom and gloom. This suck this, this sucks that, i'm grinding this character now, i'm grinding that character now....

Ok so now that it's actually out and ppl are playing it, what the real result here? I don't see much discussion on the main section.

Was all that stuff overblown? Are sorcs still around in about the same numbers?

will echo what @STEVIL said, my magicka sorc is doing fine, dps has increased in pve. people saying different are either stuck in the overload meta (gtfo of overload), or couldnt hit the numbers to begin with. in pvp i never used shields other than healing ward, so my build didnt change, and is not hurting.

my stam sorc is working even better than i expected, surge is great for pve, and the dps is great. getting ready to pvp with him this weekend.

edit: yeah the sun still came up

Gargath

I love my sorcerer because he can level so fast on aoe griding and has marvellous healing and stamina restoring spell (Dark Exchange->Dark Deal). I can speed run all the time with this great stamina pool .
ps. PvE ofc.

waterfairy

Thelon wrote: »

Play Sorc
Don't play Sorc
You are too concerned with what was
And with what will be

There is an old saying:
Yesterday is history
Tomorrow is a mystery
But today is a gift

That's why it's called the present

ha nice but Oogway chopped it, the saying is:

"The clock is running. Make the most of today. Time waits for no man. Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is a mystery. Today is a gift. That's why it is called the present"

WillhelmBlack

You can kill an average one now.