Vet Rank Removal has really highlighted difference in racial bonuses (aka "My Nord is Rubbish")

Epona222

Not a complaint really, just wondered whether anyone has noticed this sort of thing - and whether the issue of racial bonuses is noticeable by more players since vet rank removal.

Prior to DB, I had various different characters of different races and different Vet levels. Now I have a full stable of characters of the same level. This has really highlighted to me some differences between them, specifically between their racial bonuses. This is not something I had ever paid much attention to previously - I am not a min/maxer.

Since removal of vet ranks though, with all my characters now being the same level, I have noticed that my Nord character underperforms in just about every way compared to most other races when doing the same content at the same level, with the same class, the same allocation of CP, the same allocation of skillpoints and attribute points, and wearing the exact same gear (can't afford to provide every character with their own gear right now, so when I say the exact same gear I mean I am taking it off another character to put in the bank for my Nord to use).

It doesn't matter for ordinary PvE questing because the content is easy enough that it can be got through on almost any build short of a pure crafter with absolutely nothing put in combat skills, but it's more noticeable than I would have imagined before I was able to do a direct "like to like" comparison.

Nifty2g

I think it was soft caps that did this, not veteran rank removal

Epona222

Nifty2g wrote: »

I think it was soft caps that did this, not veteran rank removal

I am talking about vet rank removal in terms of noticing the difference - because I now have a max level Nord to compare with max level other races (I have every other race except Argonian and Orc, and they are now all at max level) - so for the first time I am directly seeing for myself how a max level Nord performs compared to say a max level Redguard, Khajiit, Bosmer, Imperial etc.

CossackHD

"with the same class, the same allocation of CP, the same allocation of skillpoints and attribute points, and wearing the exact same gear"
Uhh, aren't different races making just as big difference in the play-style as class choices? Of course Nords aren't as good at DPS as Khajiit, but Nords are "hardy" and supposedly better at tanking. Just as different classes, different races have different roles on field too. All dem RPG games with different racials are "racist", you know.

Vangy

Epona222 wrote: »

Not a complaint really, just wondered whether anyone has noticed this sort of thing - and whether the issue of racial bonuses is noticeable by more players since vet rank removal.

Prior to DB, I had various different characters of different races and different Vet levels. Now I have a full stable of characters of the same level. This has really highlighted to me some differences between them, specifically between their racial bonuses. This is not something I had ever paid much attention to previously - I am not a min/maxer.

Since removal of vet ranks though, with all my characters now being the same level, I have noticed that my Nord character underperforms in just about every way compared to most other races when doing the same content at the same level, with the same class, the same allocation of CP, the same allocation of skillpoints and attribute points, and wearing the exact same gear (can't afford to provide every character with their own gear right now, so when I say the exact same gear I mean I am taking it off another character to put in the bank for my Nord to use).

It doesn't matter for ordinary PvE questing because the content is easy enough that it can be got through on almost any build short of a pure crafter with absolutely nothing put in combat skills, but it's more noticeable than I would have imagined before I was able to do a direct "like to like" comparison.

And that right there is your problem. I can make an altmer stam DK or a redguard stam DK with same gear cp, etc etc and ofcourse the redguard is gona wreck dat elfs face. Dosent mean altmer is gimped. Its just altmer does better as mag. Dosent mean that altmer can't do stam. Just slightly weaker. Same goes for Nord. Im not saying Nord racials are totally fine, they could use a teeny little more love, but they make some of the best tanks. Personally, I have an imperial DK tank, dunmer mag DK, Altmer sorc, Khajiit NB, Altmer Magblade and Breton Sorc, Nord Tankplar. They are all fantastic and they all have v16 gear in all gold. So yeah. Comparing between races means u need to build them for their proper role with different gear sets. Ie: A redguard stam DPS dosent need too much invested into recovery while an Imperial DPS has a higher stam pool (so they hit harder) but need more points into recovery since they lack it.

Aka: Have u seen a blazing shield Nord templar running 60-70k health with their health recovery bonus God they are beast lol.

Mojmir

race change is coming,not soon enough though

Epona222

Vangy wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

Not a complaint really, just wondered whether anyone has noticed this sort of thing - and whether the issue of racial bonuses is noticeable by more players since vet rank removal.

Prior to DB, I had various different characters of different races and different Vet levels. Now I have a full stable of characters of the same level. This has really highlighted to me some differences between them, specifically between their racial bonuses. This is not something I had ever paid much attention to previously - I am not a min/maxer.

Since removal of vet ranks though, with all my characters now being the same level, I have noticed that my Nord character underperforms in just about every way compared to most other races when doing the same content at the same level, with the same class, the same allocation of CP, the same allocation of skillpoints and attribute points, and wearing the exact same gear (can't afford to provide every character with their own gear right now, so when I say the exact same gear I mean I am taking it off another character to put in the bank for my Nord to use).

It doesn't matter for ordinary PvE questing because the content is easy enough that it can be got through on almost any build short of a pure crafter with absolutely nothing put in combat skills, but it's more noticeable than I would have imagined before I was able to do a direct "like to like" comparison.

And that right there is your problem. I can make an altmer stam DK or a redguard stam DK with same gear cp, etc etc and ofcourse the redguard is gona wreck dat elfs face. Dosent mean altmer is gimped. Its just altmer does better as mag. Same goes for Nord. Im not saying Nord racials are totally fine, they could use a teeny little more love, but they make some of the best tanks. Personally, I have an imperial DK tank, dunmer mag DK, Altmer sorc, Khajiit NB, Altmer Magblade and Breton Sorc, Nord Tankplar. They are all fantastic and they all have v16 gear in all gold. So yeah. Comparing between races means u need to build them for their proper role with different gear sets. Ie: A redguard stam DPS dosent need too much invested into recovery while an Imperial DPS has a higher stam pool (so they hit harder) but need more points into recovery since they lack it.

Aka: Have u seen a blazing shield Nord templar running 60-70k health with their health recovery bonus God they are beast lol.

Oh I don't disagree with that at all, just that it's a bit disconcerting to have made a character a long time ago only to find when it suddenly hits max level that it (for example) "should be a tank" - what if I didn't ever intend to play a tank? There's nothing in character creation that tells you that. And at low levels the racial bonuses are not divergent enough to determine that for yourself. At max level, it's glaring.

SJD_Phoenix

Mojmir wrote: »

race change is coming,not soon enough though

My Magblade will loss his tail, literally.

I love my lizard NB but that was a bad choice for a mag DPS character.

Phinix1

I am really pretty disappointed that in a "play how you want" game, there are still these stupid OP racial passives. Like you are basically shoehorned into Redguard if you want decent enough stamina sustain to be competitive in endgame content.

I think the whole racial passive system needs to go. Make passives something you spec into like skills. For each tier, let each character choose any one of the available passives for that tier currently existing across all races.

This would be far better for role play purposes than the current min max BS.

CossackHD

Epona222 wrote: »

Oh I don't disagree with that at all, just that it's a bit disconcerting to have made a character a long time ago only to find when it suddenly hits max level that it (for example) "should be a tank" - what if I didn't ever intend to play a tank? There's nothing in character creation that tells you that. And at low levels the racial bonuses are not divergent enough to determine that for yourself. At max level, it's glaring.

Well, just looking at Nord racials tells you that they can ignore a fair %s of incoming damage. Pretty sure they don't have DPS bonuses, so, yeah, Stamina Tank is it.

Why you didn't notice the difference before? Because you never had your chars in exact same circumstances and it was much harder to evaluate properly, which is not surprising at all. It's only natural that you can compare things better when you eliminated those differences you could eliminate, that's how analysis work. You could have seen it earlier if you studied/looked up which race fits for which role.

Epona222

CossackHD wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

Oh I don't disagree with that at all, just that it's a bit disconcerting to have made a character a long time ago only to find when it suddenly hits max level that it (for example) "should be a tank" - what if I didn't ever intend to play a tank? There's nothing in character creation that tells you that. And at low levels the racial bonuses are not divergent enough to determine that for yourself. At max level, it's glaring.

Well, just looking at Nord racials tells you that they can ignore a fair %s of incoming damage. Pretty sure they don't have DPS bonuses, so, yeah, Stamina Tank is it.

Why you didn't notice the difference before? Because you never had your chars in exact same circumstances and it was much harder to evaluate properly, which is not surprising at all. You could have seen it earlier if you studied/looked up which race fits for which role.

I think you may have missed the part of my original post where I said that I wasn't complaining, just asking whether anyone else had noticed differences since having multiple characters suddenly hit max level.

Vangy

Epona222 wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

Not a complaint really, just wondered whether anyone has noticed this sort of thing - and whether the issue of racial bonuses is noticeable by more players since vet rank removal.

Prior to DB, I had various different characters of different races and different Vet levels. Now I have a full stable of characters of the same level. This has really highlighted to me some differences between them, specifically between their racial bonuses. This is not something I had ever paid much attention to previously - I am not a min/maxer.

Since removal of vet ranks though, with all my characters now being the same level, I have noticed that my Nord character underperforms in just about every way compared to most other races when doing the same content at the same level, with the same class, the same allocation of CP, the same allocation of skillpoints and attribute points, and wearing the exact same gear (can't afford to provide every character with their own gear right now, so when I say the exact same gear I mean I am taking it off another character to put in the bank for my Nord to use).

It doesn't matter for ordinary PvE questing because the content is easy enough that it can be got through on almost any build short of a pure crafter with absolutely nothing put in combat skills, but it's more noticeable than I would have imagined before I was able to do a direct "like to like" comparison.

And that right there is your problem. I can make an altmer stam DK or a redguard stam DK with same gear cp, etc etc and ofcourse the redguard is gona wreck dat elfs face. Dosent mean altmer is gimped. Its just altmer does better as mag. Same goes for Nord. Im not saying Nord racials are totally fine, they could use a teeny little more love, but they make some of the best tanks. Personally, I have an imperial DK tank, dunmer mag DK, Altmer sorc, Khajiit NB, Altmer Magblade and Breton Sorc, Nord Tankplar. They are all fantastic and they all have v16 gear in all gold. So yeah. Comparing between races means u need to build them for their proper role with different gear sets. Ie: A redguard stam DPS dosent need too much invested into recovery while an Imperial DPS has a higher stam pool (so they hit harder) but need more points into recovery since they lack it.

Aka: Have u seen a blazing shield Nord templar running 60-70k health with their health recovery bonus God they are beast lol.

Oh I don't disagree with that at all, just that it's a bit disconcerting to have made a character a long time ago only to find when it suddenly hits max level that it (for example) "should be a tank" - what if I didn't ever intend to play a tank? There's nothing in character creation that tells you that. And at low levels the racial bonuses are not divergent enough to determine that for yourself. At max level, it's glaring.

Ah I see what you mean but this is crossing over into dangerous territory. There have been countless discussions and arguments between the;

Creating character with meaningful choices crowd vs Racials shouldnt matter crowd.

With race changes coming, I guess everyone can have what they want. As long as its not 5k crowns lol. Wonder if they will allow an alliance change too haha.

CossackHD

Epona222 wrote: »

I think you may have missed the part of my original post where I said that I wasn't complaining, just asking whether anyone else had noticed differences since having multiple characters suddenly hit max level.

Ah, OK. It's just hard to remember that someone isn't complaining when there's so much text describing "the issue"
Obviously, now it's easier to see the race differences when it's easier to get chars to equal level. I personally didn't notice this because I only have one lvl 50 char (previously V16) and few ~lvl 15 crafters with maxed skills

radiostar

Would have been nice to see the actual passives during char creation.

susmitds

It should not apparent much. My Nord DK kicks ass. Check the gear and number of skillpoints, etc you have on your Nord. Also check the Champion System layout.

Jar_Ek

@Vangy what role is Argonian then?

Vangy

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Vangy what role is Argonian then?

@Jar_Ek

9% max health, 9% increased healing and 12% restoration to mag/health/stam every time you drink a potion. With those kind of stats, Id love to have a self-healing templar tank beast. My guildie has one and its awesome. He heal tanks vWGT and we run with 3 DPS lol. Id imagine a nord or imperial might find doing this role considerably harder than it is for argonian.

Julianos

Nifty2g wrote: »

I think it was soft caps that did this, not veteran rank removal

correct

Kendaric

Jar_Ek wrote: »

what role is Argonian then?

Slave obviously... (sorry, couldn't resist. I hate Argonians with a passion )

On topic:

While I think it's somewhat noticable, I'm not concerned by it. Sure, it will be an issue for anyone min/maxing but beyond that it doesn't matter as much. I'd love to see softcaps return though...

SlayerTheDragon

Racials are a big flaw in the game. They should either not affect combat stats, or be open to pick any three you want.

stevepdodson_ESO888

Nifty2g wrote: »

I think it was soft caps that did this, not veteran rank removal

+1 on this...oh for the days of 1.6 (or earlier)

Tdroid

Phinix1 wrote: »

I am really pretty disappointed that in a "play how you want" game, there are still these stupid OP racial passives. Like you are basically shoehorned into Redguard if you want decent enough stamina sustain to be competitive in endgame content.

I think the whole racial passive system needs to go. Make passives something you spec into like skills. For each tier, let each character choose any one of the available passives for that tier currently existing across all races.

This would be far better for role play purposes than the current min max BS.

I'm with you there. Just give each race something minor(like the Nords and Dunmer having a little bit frost and fire resist) to give a nod to their lore and drop all the Max/Regen/Adrenaline Rush/etc stuff.

I think that being encouraged to play a race based on their lore and appearance is a good thing. It also does away with inter-faction imbalance.

Tonnopesce

SJD_Phoenix wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

race change is coming,not soon enough though

My Magblade will loss his tail, literally.

I love my lizard NB but that was a bad choice for a mag DPS character.

I also have a magblade argonian and is not bad as a choice.
Now that it is cp160 i run around with 34k magika 1.2k mag recovery 4k Sd and 25k health.
Different races serve a different use, with this kind of build and an altmer i will be free ap running around, the +9% to health and healing are quite good, and Since is a potion/clever alchemist build i can even make a good use of the 12% stat recovery.

There is no underperforming race, just different roles and different builds.

Lord_Eomer

Phinix1 wrote: »

I am really pretty disappointed that in a "play how you want" game, there are still these stupid OP racial passives. Like you are basically shoehorned into Redguard if you want decent enough stamina sustain to be competitive in endgame content.

I think the whole racial passive system needs to go. Make passives something you spec into like skills. For each tier, let each character choose any one of the available passives for that tier currently existing across all races.

This would be far better for role play purposes than the current min max BS.

Racial Passives have importance and should never go...

STEVIL

Epona222 wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

Not a complaint really, just wondered whether anyone has noticed this sort of thing - and whether the issue of racial bonuses is noticeable by more players since vet rank removal.

Prior to DB, I had various different characters of different races and different Vet levels. Now I have a full stable of characters of the same level. This has really highlighted to me some differences between them, specifically between their racial bonuses. This is not something I had ever paid much attention to previously - I am not a min/maxer.

Since removal of vet ranks though, with all my characters now being the same level, I have noticed that my Nord character underperforms in just about every way compared to most other races when doing the same content at the same level, with the same class, the same allocation of CP, the same allocation of skillpoints and attribute points, and wearing the exact same gear (can't afford to provide every character with their own gear right now, so when I say the exact same gear I mean I am taking it off another character to put in the bank for my Nord to use).

It doesn't matter for ordinary PvE questing because the content is easy enough that it can be got through on almost any build short of a pure crafter with absolutely nothing put in combat skills, but it's more noticeable than I would have imagined before I was able to do a direct "like to like" comparison.

And that right there is your problem. I can make an altmer stam DK or a redguard stam DK with same gear cp, etc etc and ofcourse the redguard is gona wreck dat elfs face. Dosent mean altmer is gimped. Its just altmer does better as mag. Same goes for Nord. Im not saying Nord racials are totally fine, they could use a teeny little more love, but they make some of the best tanks. Personally, I have an imperial DK tank, dunmer mag DK, Altmer sorc, Khajiit NB, Altmer Magblade and Breton Sorc, Nord Tankplar. They are all fantastic and they all have v16 gear in all gold. So yeah. Comparing between races means u need to build them for their proper role with different gear sets. Ie: A redguard stam DPS dosent need too much invested into recovery while an Imperial DPS has a higher stam pool (so they hit harder) but need more points into recovery since they lack it.

Aka: Have u seen a blazing shield Nord templar running 60-70k health with their health recovery bonus God they are beast lol.

Oh I don't disagree with that at all, just that it's a bit disconcerting to have made a character a long time ago only to find when it suddenly hits max level that it (for example) "should be a tank" - what if I didn't ever intend to play a tank? There's nothing in character creation that tells you that. And at low levels the racial bonuses are not divergent enough to determine that for yourself. At max level, it's glaring.

Imo its not so much should be tank.
Its should build to strength and weakness.

Outside of more egregious mag v sta disconnects, the race simply provides different tools.

Maybe a sorc with a high stamina race could focus on more roll/dodge to supplement mag defenses even if stam sorc wasnt desired.

Or Argonians work potions in more aggressively.

Etc

But tackling the SAME job the SAME wsu with DIFFERENT tools does not show problems of the tools unless the tools are both meant for that job.

Didaco

IMO depends on what you mean by "performing".
You mean he can't kill stuff fast enough?
My redguard stamblade has roughly 3900 wd and 37k stam, if he was a nord he'd have 34k stam. Those 3k stam equates roughly 130wd, how can you feel such change?

Also, I thought that nord mitigation passive would have had its spot in the new penetration meta (sound so bad, I know...).

Jar_Ek

@Vangy Thx that's pretty much confirmed what I thought. The problem I have is that certain races are relatively pigeon- holed compared to others. So an Argonian may make a decent self heal tank, but a Redguard can make a decent stamina anything.

Schemering

Ther is a difference in new maxed chars and older ones with for example undaunted skilline at 9 (more resources) and medicilan use (more resources) and indeed some races are weaker than others playing same role and class because of passives. The difference is noticable but not a game breaker.

Asmael

Didaco wrote: »

IMO depends on what you mean by "performing".
You mean he can't kill stuff fast enough?
My redguard stamblade has roughly 3900 wd and 37k stam, if he was a nord he'd have 34k stam. Those 3k stam equates roughly 130wd, how can you feel such change?

Also, I thought that nord mitigation passive would have had its spot in the new penetration meta (sound so bad, I know...).

3k stam is not 130 wd.

Raw damage = Stam / 10.46 + WD, so 3k stam is actually 286 WD. That's almost Hunding's 5th piece.

Also, mitigation is multiplicative, so that 6% mitigation is actually 3% on a resist capped build. Nords are best for health regen tanks, but that's about it.

Teridaxus

Nifty2g wrote: »

I think it was soft caps that did this, not veteran rank removal

This so much. Race barely mattered before so you could do lore friendly things like argonian guerilla warriors or breton knights, but after the removal after the soft caps, many people got screwed over.

Still waiting for race change...

Phinix1

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

I think it was soft caps that did this, not veteran rank removal

This so much. Race barely mattered before so you could do lore friendly things like argonian guerilla warriors or breton knights, but after the removal after the soft caps, many people got screwed over.

Still waiting for race change...

That's the thing though; I don't think this will solve anything other than creating Elder Altmer vs. Redguards Online (with maybe a few token Dark Elf vampires or Werejiit) when everyone respecs into the "optimal" race.

There are certain races like Nord and Argonian that are really just not good for much of anything besides looks and lore, and people should be free to play the race they like the look and feel of best without having to worry about OP Adrenaline Rush passives and not being able to efficiently role magicka later without making a separate character.

I'm all for racials but honestly I don't think every game has to be a carbon copy of WoW either. This game has race-specific armor motif's. I would much rather have a system like this:

New character passive system: A proposal.