Witch hunt is on will you be the hunter or be hunted?

cyx54tc

Background: ZoS has made some promises about the upcoming anti cheat detection as well as perma ban for players caught cheating.

TLDR Version: just jump to conclusion

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Long version:


So what will happen next?
PlayerA: Hey that guy is infinite dodge rolling, must be cheating! REPORT HIM!
PlayerB: That guy just 1vX us, must be cheating! REPORT HIM!
PlayerC: This guy just crit me for {fill in the number here}, must be cheating! REPORT HIM!
PlayerD: Someone just got a high score in VMA that I cannot get, must be cheating! REPORT HIM!
.....
Troll: I am reporting anyone whos better than me!

Lets get back to the technical point of view. Since the server does not validate those data, there is a high possibility that the data is not in the server AT ALL. Let alone logs since I doubt they will be logging every single action like used blah blah skill, then dodge roll, then got hit by X amount of damage. If they do log those then the data will grow so fast to terabyte (1000 TB) level easily.

So what could they do to verify if the player is cheating or not after they received a report? Either check videos or screenshots (don't forget about PSed ss sent by trolls) that are sent and see if the action is obvious cheating or....just count the number of times the player got reported and take some action. Which is exactly a .... WITCH HUNT!

Now about the client side detection as they promised, will it help a lot?
Probably not...they stated that they will try to detect the so call "known" hack programs. A half decent hacker could still by pass that easily by writing his own little tool. Will make it harder for people using a generic one but certainly is NOT a solution.

So its a matter of a choice between taking the risk of banning good players vs letting the not so obvious hackers get away.

In the end the result is likely to be
- Hackers adjusting their stats a little bit higher than what they should be and have complete advantage over legit players
- Legit players always feel better players are hacking (or they are really hacking)
- ZoS got flooded by hack report and trying to find out what to do with them.

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Conclusion
The game's atmosphere will always be filled with the smell of hack until ..... ZoS completely rewrite the whole network connection code to use server side trust which is likely never going to happen


The hunt is on, fellow hunter and hunted

vyndral13preub18_ESO

Did they promise permanent bans?

Cously

There are times of peace and times of war. May the hunt begin!

arena25

Welcome to the 2016 Hunger Games sponsored by ZeniMax...may the odds be ever in your favor.

Joking aside, a crappy solution is better than no solution at all, but yes...ZoS needs to be careful so that this doesn't turn into the modern version of the Salem Witch Trials.

Reapor

Just because certain "points" lets say ultimate are not handled server side, does not mean its not logged server side when a skill is used.

jus sayin

cyx54tc

Reapor wrote: »

Just because certain "points" lets say ultimate are not handled server side, does not mean its not logged server side when a skill is used.

jus sayin

Well, I'm saying the amount of disk space required is so large to a point that its not viable to log every single action.

And plus why do we think unlimited ultimate is the only thing hackers could do? if they can hack ultimate they could do the same for any resources/attack power/regen/movement speed and much more lol

CokeVoAYCE

i'm pretty sure when ZOS gets a report before they hand out a permaban they confirm that there was definitely cheating. they aren't *that* stupid guys..

cyx54tc

CokeVoAYCE wrote: »

i'm pretty sure when ZOS gets a report before they hand out a permaban they confirm that there was definitely cheating. they aren't *that* stupid guys..

what if the person is cheating not so obviously? like....he shoulda have 30k stam but hacked it to around 50k? And lets assume ZOS does NOT have the data to verify it.

Sheey

This story is sad and says the truth about how they manage banning ppl because of reports.

Smileybones

cyx54tc wrote: »

CokeVoAYCE wrote: »

i'm pretty sure when ZOS gets a report before they hand out a permaban they confirm that there was definitely cheating. they aren't *that* stupid guys..

what if the person is cheating not so obviously? like....he shoulda have 30k stam but hacked it to around 50k? And lets assume ZOS does NOT have the data to verify it.

You're assuming a bit too much, but heh let's not ruin your moment with your thread.

Korah_Eaglecry

CokeVoAYCE wrote: »

i'm pretty sure when ZOS gets a report before they hand out a permaban they confirm that there was definitely cheating. they aren't *that* stupid guys..

They have a script thats doing it. Theres no way for them to possibly filter through every last one of them in person. Now if the person feels they were wrongly targeted. They can send a few messages to Support for an opportunity to challenge the ban.

Does it possibly catch up a few people not doing it? Sure thats quite possible. But hacking is a pretty big deal regardless of what level its at. So its always going to be approached with the most all encompassing banhammer they can bring to bear. The best thing anyone can do if they find themselves banned is to approach Support and challenge the ban.

clayandaudrey_ESO

cyx54tc wrote: »

Reapor wrote: »

Just because certain "points" lets say ultimate are not handled server side, does not mean its not logged server side when a skill is used.

jus sayin

Well, I'm saying the amount of disk space required is so large to a point that its not viable to log every single action.

And plus why do we think unlimited ultimate is the only thing hackers could do? if they can hack ultimate they could do the same for any resources/attack power/regen/movement speed and much more lol

The 3rd party program they were using could do all that and much more.

ArchMikem

The great thing though is, I'm just so bad at this game that no one will ever think I'm cheating.

But really yeah, cheating claims can and, if not already are, will be through the roof over the stupidest reasons. A lot of the time in a competitive environment some people are just extremely lucky and have bouts of being untouchable. Others will immediately think they're cheating. On Youtube, this Streamer was up against Lt. Eddy in Counter Strike and Eddy was just wrecking him. Eventually he's like "This guy's up to something", so he reports him for cheating and puts the type of cheating as "Other", cause his only offense was just being too good at the time.

AmberLaTerra

cyx54tc wrote: »

Reapor wrote: »

Just because certain "points" lets say ultimate are not handled server side, does not mean its not logged server side when a skill is used.

jus sayin

Well, I'm saying the amount of disk space required is so large to a point that its not viable to log every single action.

And plus why do we think unlimited ultimate is the only thing hackers could do? if they can hack ultimate they could do the same for any resources/attack power/regen/movement speed and much more lol

I would assume the system would be set up to record all actions for a time after a report is received to log for memory reasons. The report turning the flag to log every action for X amount of time on for them to be able to review. That is the logical way to do it and not have run away memory needs for the logs.

Psychotius

People have reported others for hacking since beta, people have reported others for hacking in every MMO, people will always report others. Especially when that person is either better than or just annoying the reporter. Nothing ZOS does will ever change that.

cyx54tc

Psychotius wrote: »

People have reported others for hacking since beta, people have reported others for hacking in every MMO, people will always report others. Especially when that person is either better than or just annoying the reporter. Nothing ZOS does will ever change that.

use server trust will eliminate most of those kind of reports since you need to hack the server in order to do things hackers have been doing for the past few days

wayfarerx

cyx54tc wrote: »

Well, I'm saying the amount of disk space required is so large to a point that its not viable to log every single action.

Speaking as someone who's day job is partially to create and analyze logs for systems much larger than ESO: that is a silly statement. Disk space is cheap, ZOS should absolutely be logging every single thing we do in game.

Smileybones

cyx54tc wrote: »

Psychotius wrote: »

People have reported others for hacking since beta, people have reported others for hacking in every MMO, people will always report others. Especially when that person is either better than or just annoying the reporter. Nothing ZOS does will ever change that.

use server trust will eliminate most of those kind of reports since you need to hack the server in order to do things hackers have been doing for the past few days

This won't change the fact that people will still report others for hacking: you need to know that few people are actually aware about client/server architecture of the game they're playing.

clayandaudrey_ESO

Are you for real?

cyx54tc

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

cyx54tc wrote: »

Reapor wrote: »

Just because certain "points" lets say ultimate are not handled server side, does not mean its not logged server side when a skill is used.

jus sayin

Well, I'm saying the amount of disk space required is so large to a point that its not viable to log every single action.

And plus why do we think unlimited ultimate is the only thing hackers could do? if they can hack ultimate they could do the same for any resources/attack power/regen/movement speed and much more lol

I would assume the system would be set up to record all actions for a time after a report is received to log for memory reasons. The report turning the flag to log every action for X amount of time on for them to be able to review. That is the logical way to do it and not have run away memory needs for the logs.

I highly doubt they do that. The main reason client trust model is used is that they want to reduce server load. Logging every single action a player did for the entire game play requires huge amount of IO since you are pretty much required to dump things onto disk every couple seconds due to the number of players in game. Probably require even more computational power than a server trust implementation .

Abeille

I never achieve anything worthy of note, let alone something that could lead to a false report

Phinix1

Another sensationalized conspiracy theory thread, woohoo.

Look there is no rational reason to read into what Zenimax has said. They have anti-cheat code. They keep logs. Some people are caught by scripts while others are INVESTIGATED. If you haven't cheated, then going over the logs will clear you of any wrongdoing.

Other than that I have to assume the reason for so many "oh noes the false bans" threads must be this old chestnut:

"Everyone in prison is innocent. Just ask them."

cyx54tc

Phinix1 wrote: »

Another sensationalized conspiracy theory thread, woohoo.

Look there is no rational reason to read into what Zenimax has said. They have anti-cheat code. They keep logs. Some people are caught by scripts while others are INVESTIGATED. If you haven't cheated, then going over the logs will clear you of any wrongdoing.

Other than that I have to assume the reason for so many "oh noes the false bans" threads must be this old chestnut:

"Everyone in prison is innocent. Just ask them."

I do believe they keep a partial log. But a complete log..meh. And plus even if they do, how much man power do you think it requires to verify all cases reported by players?

Since we cannot see other player's gears/stat and we all know the fact that it is easy to hack the game. Any one doing better than 'me' might be hacking.

One verification might take 10-30min to verify the log if it is a complete log. How many verifications can ZoS afford to make per day?

Garwulf

Witch Hunt?
Definition: A witch-hunt is a search for people labelled "witches" or evidence of witchcraft, often involving moral panic or mass hysteria.

Now having watched my group leader being hit by 10 Meteors all from the same person and having experienced it myself ,then the 'Witches' are definitely real....

Recremen

Actually they have logs they can look through during investigations and can parse acceptable v. unacceptable events from there. The only thing anyone has to worry about is a potential, temporary increase in the use of the report function. This is why it's also important to be as specific as possible when using the report function. Exact time, exact place, exact sequence of events if you can manage it, video links highly encouraged, etc. It will make the search process way easier on the people whose job it is.

alexkdd99

Smileybones wrote: »

cyx54tc wrote: »

CokeVoAYCE wrote: »

i'm pretty sure when ZOS gets a report before they hand out a permaban they confirm that there was definitely cheating. they aren't *that* stupid guys..

what if the person is cheating not so obviously? like....he shoulda have 30k stam but hacked it to around 50k? And lets assume ZOS does NOT have the data to verify it.

You're assuming a bit too much, but heh let's not ruin your moment with your thread.

So do you think people are not currently doing exactly what he is taking about? Honestly I think any mmo worth a damn should have anything related to character stats and inventory done server side. That is really just common sense. There are some things developers should just know. Can't believe "hackers" have not been running rampant a year ago considering how easy zos made it. And I use the term hacking lightly since it seems all they are doing is fishing through the code and editing hex data which any 15 year old and Google can do.

SirDopey

How salty are those permabans? Don't cheat, won't get banned. I've never reported someone in game until I saw a fellow AD drop bats, standard and then bats again with no more than a few seconds between each.

Based on history (as in having played from launch and knowing how they react), ZOS only bans when the evidence is pretty damning.

Smileybones

alexkdd99 wrote: »

Smileybones wrote: »

cyx54tc wrote: »

CokeVoAYCE wrote: »

i'm pretty sure when ZOS gets a report before they hand out a permaban they confirm that there was definitely cheating. they aren't *that* stupid guys..

what if the person is cheating not so obviously? like....he shoulda have 30k stam but hacked it to around 50k? And lets assume ZOS does NOT have the data to verify it.

You're assuming a bit too much, but heh let's not ruin your moment with your thread.

So do you think people are not currently doing exactly what he is taking about? Honestly I think any mmo worth a damn should have anything related to character stats and inventory done server side. That is really just common sense. There are some things developers should just know. Can't believe "hackers" have not been running rampant a year ago considering how easy zos made it. And I use the term hacking lightly since it seems all they are doing is fishing through the code and editing hex data which any 15 year old and Google can do.

I think, as it has been said if you care reading the thread, is as long as the report function exists, people will report others.

I also think that this "witch hunt" is called in my country a storm inside a glass of water, but as I said I won't prevent you enjoying your thread.

Rohamad_Ali

This is nothing but tinfoil hat conspiracy nonsense . Stop cheating or have your account burned at the stake . I hope ZOS catches every last Witch (except RP Witches) .

THBronx

cyx54tc wrote: »

what if the person is cheating not so obviously? like....he shoulda have 30k stam but hacked it to around 50k? And lets assume ZOS does NOT have the data to verify it.

Smileybones wrote: »

You're assuming a bit too much, but heh let's not ruin your moment with your thread.

^ This....

Psychotius wrote:

People have reported others for hacking since beta, people have reported others for hacking in every MMO, people will always report others. Especially when that person is either better than or just annoying the reporter. Nothing ZOS does will ever change that.

^ and this....

Phinix1 wrote:

Another sensationalized conspiracy theory thread, woohoo.

^ ....

wrote:

One verification might take 10-30min to verify the log if it is a complete log. How many verifications can ZoS afford to make per day?

omg bro...Where do you get those conclusions?

Smileybones wrote:

You're assuming a bit too much, but heh let's not ruin your moment with your thread.

...Jeez it seems that some people started to play MMO yesterday...

Volkodav

I'm neither hunter nor hunter.I am a bystander who doesnt really care a lot about the flavor of the month issues.