Why I'm ditching divines in the Dark Brotherhood update (PvE Templar healer)

jrgray93

I, like many others, have been using 7/7 divines for a long time. It is generally regarded as a trait you'll want plenty of as a healer or DPS, especially coupled with the thief stone (crit chance) or Ritual if you want pure healing. With the upcoming patch, other traits are looking more appealing. Specifically, I moved from divines to nirnhoned / reinforced in anticipation. I'm losing 5.77% critical chance to make this change (as I've been using thief), and gaining somewhere in the neighborhood of 2.4k physical and spell resistance, or roughly 3.6% damage mitigation.

Damage mitigation may seem like a weird choice as a healer, so I'll explain my logic. The first thing to understand is that a dead healer is useful to nobody. If I go down, the group stands a pretty solid chance of going down with me. To prevent deaths from silly mistakes or high, unavoidable damage hits, I always tried to shoot for somewhere between 20k and 21k health. This range kept me alive well enough with, I believe, around 9.5k physical resistance, leaving me with around 70% critical chance for spells.

In general, as a healer, I find reliability to far outweigh the "glass cannon" approach. Although huge critical heals are cool, I think consistently solid heals are a better choice. When you focus on critical healing and invest champion points into something like elfborn to make those crits more potent, you widen the gap between the values of standard and critical heals. I would much prefer to increase the base healing value than the critical healing value, as it directly correlates anyway. I know that may sound confusing, so I made some visual explanations for an example.

Let's assume your base heal is 2000, represented by the darker of the two greens. With the base 1.5 multiplier for crits, that makes the crit 3000.



So say you invested in 100 points of elfborn for a 25% bonus to critical healing. That increases the critical heal multiplier to 1.75 and results in 2000/3500. This leaves a larger gap between base and crit.



Now assume you instead invested those 100 points into blessed for a 25% boost to base healing. You retain a 1.5 crit multiplier, but your end result is 2500/3750. That's a higher base AND higher crit than the previous two situations.



Now you of course have to consider that elfborn benefits damage as well. I'm not saying to abandon it, but it is simply isn't as beneficial to healing as pure heal value is. Basically, I'm saying you should invest more into pure healing than critical healing. As such, the role of a crit is reduced in the build, and the benefit of 5.77% crit chance is reduced along with it.

So this is where that damage mitigation starts to make a bit more sense. Because of my increased mitigation, I was able to reduce my target health pool. This meant more attribute points to spend. After passives, I am getting (very) roughly 150 health and 150 magicka per point. So pretty much every point removed from health adds relatively equal amounts of magicka. I lowered my health pool but my ability to survive is still better than before and my heals are more potent because of the increased magicka.

So I gave up about 6% critical chance in exchange for being a bit tankier and having more potent heals through increased magicka and redistributed champion points. I no longer have the exact figures, but my overall healing over the course of 100 casts is within half a percent of what it used to be.

So after abandoning divines for mitigation, I can take more abuse and my heals are more consistently high, just with a few less crits. I think the end result is a more reliable healer. It also doesn't hurt that I'll be able to handle solo endeavors like VMA easier.

EDIT:

Something that didn't occur to me until I got around to really putting this to the test is that a smaller health pool with higher mitigation results in effectively making heals more powerful. The healing value is the same no matter how much health you have, so a smaller, tougher health pool means you'll be harder to kill.

Waffennacht

I can only speak via logic, but what you're saying makes sense, in as much a 20k heal is no better than a 10k heal (for arguments sake) if a player only needs 10k health.

Therefore there is a point in which an increase to health healed is wasted while keeping yourself alive is always in style.

Gees I already forgot the name, but they stated that if your resist is less than 15k, for defense, it's far more valuable to get to 15k than, let's say, impenetrable.

RedFireDisco

Absolutely.

Crits are chance. Sometimes you want the definitive over the maybe.

Nothing wrong with reinforcing your armor, healers take a lot of damage sometimes because of your spread focus.

Between looking at the group health bars, finding your tank and watching your resources, it's easy to take damage from somewhere in the 360.

Stannum

jrgray93 wrote: »

I, like many others, have been using 7/7 divines for a long time. It is generally regarded as a trait you'll want plenty of as a healer or DPS, especially coupled with the thief stone (crit chance).

Someone has calculated that the most efficient mundus for healing is ritual, but not thief or shadow.

jrgray93

dancing.in.the.webeb17_ESO wrote: »

jrgray93 wrote: »

I, like many others, have been using 7/7 divines for a long time. It is generally regarded as a trait you'll want plenty of as a healer or DPS, especially coupled with the thief stone (crit chance).

Someone has calculated that the most efficient mundus for healing is ritual, but not thief or shadow.

It definitely is. 11% crit is 5.5% more healing, assuming the probability works out as it should. That stone is a base 10% increase. I still used thief for the versatility outside of a healing role, but I may consider switching soon.

On another note, I remade all of my gear and healed a few veteran dungeons last night. I'm pleased to report it's hilariously effective. While the DPS almost die from boss AoEs, I just stood in them like it was nothing. My sustain is also improved since I got rid of Kena in favor of another Magnus set item, but I didn't have too much trouble prior to that. I'll be even more effective once DB is live.

Oh, and I'm updating the OP with some extra info.

Daraugh

Thanks for sharing! Are you using all Magnus or something else?

jrgray93

Daraugh wrote: »

Thanks for sharing! Are you using all Magnus or something else?

I'm currently using 5/5 Julianos and 3/5 Magnus. I'm actually making a build thread right now. I'll post it soon and throw it in my signature if you want to check it out

DHale

Or you can keep your divines which are fine and just run sword and board resto staff. when I heal for my guildies I use duel wield sword and board. Or sword and board destro staff. That will give you the damage mitigation you seek. On my sword an board bar I can throw down a ritual and a rune, power of the light then sweep bosses while standing in red for the entire time when I am trying to improve clear times (vet dungeons) Block the big hits then sweep again. Templars really don't need a resto staff. They are great for magic return though.

jrgray93

DHale wrote: »

Or you can keep your divines which are fine and just run sword and board resto staff. when I heal for my guildies I use duel wield sword and board. Or sword and board destro staff. That will give you the damage mitigation you seek. On my sword an board bar I can throw down a ritual and a rune, power of the light then sweep bosses while standing in red for the entire time when I am trying to improve clear times (vet dungeons) Block the big hits then sweep again. Templars really don't need a resto staff. They are great for magic return though.

I prefer to use two resto staves. They provide too many benefits for me to want to use 1h & shield. As I previously stated, I'm working on a build thread right now. It will give a good explanation of my setup.

jrgray93

(forum error double post)

jrgray93

OH BABY A TRIPLE post. Forum broked.

Asmael

jrgray93 wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

Or you can keep your divines which are fine and just run sword and board resto staff. when I heal for my guildies I use duel wield sword and board. Or sword and board destro staff. That will give you the damage mitigation you seek. On my sword an board bar I can throw down a ritual and a rune, power of the light then sweep bosses while standing in red for the entire time when I am trying to improve clear times (vet dungeons) Block the big hits then sweep again. Templars really don't need a resto staff. They are great for magic return though.

I prefer to use two resto staves. They provide too many benefits for me to want to use 1h & shield. As I previously stated, I'm working on a build thread right now. It will give a good explanation of my setup.

Triple post victim. RIP.

That aside, I wouldn't consider resto on both bars. That'd be fine for extremely bad groups, where everyone dies the second you stop healing (which, hopefully doesn't occur often) while still having a top combined group DPS below 5k...

For decent groups, a simple HoT is enough (RR / Mutagen), and you can spend most of your time actually DPS-ing, which means you're actually losing a fairly big chunk of DPS by not using a destro staff, and being a DD when you actually get the opportunity.

Usually, popping Combat prayer (+ SPC if I had the patience to farm it...) + a HoT is all I have to do with good groups, which means I have more than 50% of my time spent DPS-ing.

When it comes to survivability, I don't see why you'd need that much health + mitigation, since you can complete any dungeon with 16k health and never really be in danger, even as a melee DD. You still have Harness for boss fights using magicka attacks, if you really need it, and still, I use it less and less as time goes by.

Overall, I can see the logic behind it, but don't agree with it, as I wouldn't consider it to be competitive enough.

jrgray93

I see nothing particularly useful about using a destro staff. Also, keep in mind DB is changing nirnhoned to add weapon damage. I'll have more spell power than ever. My offensive abilities are class based and they do just fine. I contribute enough DPS in other ways when I can, especially with the changes to ritual in the DB update. I play with random people a lot. I don't join guilds. I have an equal chance of getting horrible players as I do good players. One of the major points I made is that I don't have to give up spell potency since I'm able to improve my magicka pool and spell power. 16k HP is all good and well if you enjoy dying every time you get a bad group.

Daraugh

I use resto + destro on my Templar, but I always hate losing my resto passives. The destro passives aren't that great, I like knowing I'm getting the extra magicka back, the extra hots given and chances are pretty good someone else in a group has a destro staff and is applying those passive procs aleady. Plus I don't know if they stack, so I've been sticking to numbers I know. It's rare I use anything but my Templar skills for damage anyway, since I have a nice rotation down that's in my fingers and I can cancel out of without thinking if things escalate quickly.

Autolycus

Allow me to start off by saying I don't see any problem with reworking your traits to accommodate your playstyle preference. You are the one playing and paying for this game, and you should play it how you want to play.

I personally have found all of the survivability I could ever reasonably expect through the use of class skills. In the DB update, the changes to Annulment (and a couple of other skills) make that less necessary. As healers, we don't stack hardly any physical and spell resistances, choosing typically to stack our magicka and SD instead.

If vMA taught us anything, it's how to keep yourself alive without giving up the ability to do damage. The same concept applies to healers too, and I know a great number of other healers who went into vMA with their typical heal setup and completed it. Sure, changing up your bars is necessary, but changing your build is not.

Take Major Ward/Resolve, for example. Every class has access to this in one form or another. Applying this buff is worth about double what you're getting out a nirnhoned piece. Annulment can effectively double your health pool (so to speak), while at the same time supplementing your magicka sustain, and eliminating the need for resistances (since shields don't have a resistance table). As long as that shield is active, there's no need to mitigate anything. It's after the shield expires that your resistances will mitigate incoming damage. And to top it off, Annulment is buffed with your max magicka.

So, if you're going to get rid of divines, you would be doing yourself more of a favor by using infused to buff your healing potential and ward capacity. Perhaps a better alternatives, however, is to keep divines and switch your Mundus to the Ritual, because it sounds like reliable and consistent heals is what matters most, and that's pretty much the definition of the Ritual.

Just some food for thought. Divines isn't considered BiS trait only because of damage potential. It's also the best cost/benefit tradeoff and the least punishing opportunity cost of other options in most cases.

acw37162

7/7 Gold Divines Thief is 18% crit chance , it's stupid good.

elium85

@jgray93 You mentioned double resto and said you didn't see a reason for a destro staff. There is a singular reason - Elemental Drain. In all 12-man content, it's required that the healer(s) provide this on all bosses and elite mobs.

jrgray93

elium85 wrote: »

@jgray93 You mentioned double resto and said you didn't see a reason for a destro staff. There is a singular reason - Elemental Drain. In all 12-man content, it's required that the healer(s) provide this on all bosses and elite mobs.

Fair enough, but I don't do 12-man content. I can always keep a destro staff and mix things up a bit for that content should I choose to.

Autolycus

elium85 wrote: »

@jgray93 You mentioned double resto and said you didn't see a reason for a destro staff. There is a singular reason - Elemental Drain. In all 12-man content, it's required that the healer(s) provide this on all bosses and elite mobs.

Eh... this is really not a requirement anymore. It's something you want someone in your group running, and this really only applies to certain bosses anymore, with dps being so high now that fights don't last long enough to require sustain, the obvious exception being Maw.

Most healers I know do not run destro staves any longer. I don't disagree with you, but it's not quite as important as you make it seem anymore. A lot of times you have a magicka DK running it, because magicka DKs are the most likely to do a destro/destro setup and not a destro/DW setup. And a significant portion of today's healers are resto/DW.

jrgray93

I'm actually in the process of trying out some suggestions from this thread and my build thread (in my signature) and I am working out some new solutions. I may consider a destro staff or DW for my second bar. I do like the idea of using Elemental Drain, but it is another wasted slot if someone else has it. We'll see.

elium85

Cool! If you're doing a Dungeon and you just mention you're running it, most DD's will be happy to take it off their bar. They only run it out of necessity and there are other, usually ideal, skills they can run!