Dual Wield is the most offensive based melee weapon. Why doesn't it have a gap closer?

Animus-ESO

Dual wield is the only melee weapon with out a gap closer. Anyone else feel this is wrong?

sphane

No Because this game needs to stay a matter of choices and sacrifices (which is less and less the case ).

Sunburnt_Penguin

No.

Elsonso

No, not needed

Animus-ESO

sphane wrote: »

No Because this game needs to stay a matter of choices and sacrifices (which is less and less the case ).

So what your really saying the only viable melee weapon in pvp should be two handed??

KenaPKK

Needed.

sphane wrote: »

No Because this game needs to stay a matter of choices and sacrifices (which is less and less the case ).

The accessibility of a simple gap closer and heal makes 2h by far the strongest stamina weapon skill line, making it borderline necessary in stamina builds. That discourages decision making and incurs a massive sacrifice on anyone who decides to use a stamina build that does not incorporate 2h, or use back bar 2h gap closer and Rally.

I agree that the game needs to incorporate choices and sacrifices, but in the case of stamina weapon line gap closers and heals, 2h is too much benefit and little sacrifice compared to the others.

Animus-ESO

lordrichter wrote: »

No, not needed

I want to hear why you think this is? Have you ever played a stamina DK or Templar? Notice how they ALL use two handed or S&B because its the only thing they can use?

Skyy

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

sphane wrote: »

No Because this game needs to stay a matter of choices and sacrifices (which is less and less the case ).

So what your really saying the only viable melee weapon in pvp should be two handed??

Every single class has a gap closer. Do two of those classes need theirs fixed so that actually work more than 10% of the time, yes. But there are still plenty of alternatives to using a weapon skill for gap closing.

Sallington

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

No, not needed

I want to hear why you think this is? Have you ever played a stamina DK or Templar? Notice how they ALL use two handed or S&B because its the only thing they can use?

I'll have to tell my templar that uses quick cloak for major expedition that.

Animus-ESO

Skyy wrote: »

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

sphane wrote: »

No Because this game needs to stay a matter of choices and sacrifices (which is less and less the case ).

So what your really saying the only viable melee weapon in pvp should be two handed??

Every single class has a gap closer. Do two of those classes need theirs fixed so that actually work more than 10% of the time, yes. But there are still plenty of alternatives to using a weapon skill for gap closing.

Why would adding more options to the mix EVER be a bad idea? I dont get it, you say you want choices but shoot down having the option to add one. only one class has a stamina gap closer and that is NB.

sphane

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

sphane wrote: »

No Because this game needs to stay a matter of choices and sacrifices (which is less and less the case ).

So what your really saying the only viable melee weapon in pvp should be two handed??

Or maybe learn to switch weapon. I guess you have bow on other bar. Question of choice and sacrifice...

KenaPKK

Each class should have a magicka and stamina morph of its gap closer, that are not buggy *cough* topping charge *cough* *cough* stamina morph of the new chains gap closer *cough*.

Do that, and we're good.

Oh, and Major Expedition too. Possibly even a source of snare removal... Those are really helpful with mobility being so constrained these days.

OrphanHelgen

yeah as a stam DK, I have struggled alot with this subject.
Having chains as magicka option only, and also counts as a hard cc, doesnt help.

sphane

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

yeah as a stam DK, I have struggled alot with this subject.
Having chains as magicka option only, and also counts as a hard cc, doesnt help.

Not count as hard cc anymore.

Animus-ESO

sphane wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

yeah as a stam DK, I have struggled alot with this subject.
Having chains as magicka option only, and also counts as a hard cc, doesnt help.

Not count as hard cc anymore.

You still can only gap close a total of twice on a stam build and you're spent, No magic for defensive skills.

Kas

i really prefer a game of choice and sacrifices.
after all, you have two bars. If there was a perfect build that had it all, people would just play that and complain about how the remaining difference need to be balanced better.

it's much "easier" to balance if builds sacrifice something nice. e.g. on the pts, stam dks have their best single target dps with dw and dots but seriously lack burst/execute potential. they can combine it with 2h and get the execute, gap closer and burst. however, bows are also incredibly nice (also the best way to counter malubeth through magnum shot) and benefit from the HA buff and 1h+s work extremely well to make DKs tanky and set them up for long sustain-based fights. imho all combinations of the 4 weapon choices are somewhat viable. If one line had full offense and another perfect defense, this variety would be lost.

Animus-ESO

Kas wrote: »

i really prefer a game of choice and sacrifices.
after all, you have two bars. If there was a perfect build that had it all, people would just play that and complain about how the remaining difference need to be balanced better.

it's much "easier" to balance if builds sacrifice something nice. e.g. on the pts, stam dks have their best single target dps with dw and dots but seriously lack burst/execute potential. they can combine it with 2h and get the execute, gap closer and burst. however, bows are also incredibly nice (also the best way to counter malubeth through magnum shot) and benefit from the HA buff and 1h+s work extremely well to make DKs tanky and set them up for long sustain-based fights. imho all combinations of the 4 weapon choices are somewhat viable. If one line had full offense and another perfect defense, this variety would be lost.

But your forgetting DW has NOTHING going for it, as an offensive melee weapon it is useless! Anything a DW abilty can do another weapon line can do it better. I wouldn't mind DW being so mediocre if it just had a gap closer.

Elsonso

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

No, not needed

I want to hear why you think this is? Have you ever played a stamina DK or Templar? Notice how they ALL use two handed or S&B because its the only thing they can use?

It is more that thought that 2H should not have a gap closer. At this point, adding one to dual wield turns into an arms race. Remove the gap closer from 2H and put it on dual wield. It makes sense on DW but not on both. Otherwise, leave it alone.

OrphanHelgen

sphane wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

yeah as a stam DK, I have struggled alot with this subject.
Having chains as magicka option only, and also counts as a hard cc, doesnt help.

Not count as hard cc anymore.

The morph that pulls them to you, actually is a hard CC.
But thats not a problem, I can use the other morph that pulls me to them and give me some movement speed and empower I think it was.
But it still costs alot of magicka

Animus-ESO

lordrichter wrote: »

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

No, not needed

I want to hear why you think this is? Have you ever played a stamina DK or Templar? Notice how they ALL use two handed or S&B because its the only thing they can use?

It is more that thought that 2H should not have a gap closer. At this point, adding one to dual wield turns into an arms race. Remove the gap closer from 2H and put it on dual wield. It makes sense on DW but not on both. Otherwise, leave it alone.

Soooo... Its not enough that we are at a disadvantage being melee combat based? The gap closer is already less distance then damage abilities. So coming into the fight we are going to be hit with some ranged abilities. Every melee weapon needs a gap closer.

KisoValley

Theres a thing called weapon swapping btw

starlizard70ub17_ESO

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

But your forgetting DW has NOTHING going for it, as an offensive melee weapon it is useless! Anything a DW abilty can do another weapon line can do it better. I wouldn't mind DW being so mediocre if it just had a gap closer.

You must be playing a different game then anyone else, my stamNB uses DW/Bow along with NB skills and does quite well. I even kill people in PvP most effectively. But if you're really unhappy with the way DW works, then use another skill. Not every skill line needs to have a one button "I win" included in it.

PS. I just noticed you've been spaming this topic muliple times.

Animus-ESO

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

But your forgetting DW has NOTHING going for it, as an offensive melee weapon it is useless! Anything a DW abilty can do another weapon line can do it better. I wouldn't mind DW being so mediocre if it just had a gap closer.

You must be playing a different game then anyone else, my stamNB uses DW/Bow along with NB skills and does quite well. I even kill people in PvP most effectively. But if you're really unhappy with the way DW works, then use another skill. Not every skill line needs to have a one button "I win" included in it.

Sounds like you use ambush, A skill only NB's have. Dk's, templars and Sorc's only have magic based gap closers. We litterally cant use DW/Bow to be viable in pvp.

Animus-ESO

HarmitGill wrote: »

Theres a thing called weapon swapping btw

So as a DK im not allowed to use bow/DW? Just not allowed huh?

sphane

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

sphane wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

yeah as a stam DK, I have struggled alot with this subject.
Having chains as magicka option only, and also counts as a hard cc, doesnt help.

Not count as hard cc anymore.

The morph that pulls them to you, actually is a hard CC.
But thats not a problem, I can use the other morph that pulls me to them and give me some movement speed and empower I think it was.
But it still costs alot of magicka

Think the pulling morph is useless in pvp. Am sure a creative stam dk can make something workable with the chain

Just sacrify a bit of your damage.

Animus-ESO

sphane wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

sphane wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

yeah as a stam DK, I have struggled alot with this subject.
Having chains as magicka option only, and also counts as a hard cc, doesnt help.

Not count as hard cc anymore.

The morph that pulls them to you, actually is a hard CC.
But thats not a problem, I can use the other morph that pulls me to them and give me some movement speed and empower I think it was.
But it still costs alot of magicka

Think the pulling morph is useless in pvp. Am sure a creative stam dk can make something workable with the chain

Just sacrify a bit of your damage.

Or we could just go 2 Handed and not sacrifice anything for that gain.

KenaPKK

sphane wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

sphane wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

yeah as a stam DK, I have struggled alot with this subject.
Having chains as magicka option only, and also counts as a hard cc, doesnt help.

Not count as hard cc anymore.

The morph that pulls them to you, actually is a hard CC.
But thats not a problem, I can use the other morph that pulls me to them and give me some movement speed and empower I think it was.
But it still costs alot of magicka

Think the pulling morph is useless in pvp. Am sure a creative stam dk can make something workable with the chain

Just sacrify a bit of your damage.

Yes, the pulling morph is useless since it gives cc immunity, allowing them to just run off again.

But the gap closer morph of chains is also useless to a stamina DK because it runs them out of magicka after a couple casts, leaving them unable to use wings or igneous.

starlizard70ub17_ESO

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

HarmitGill wrote: »

Theres a thing called weapon swapping btw

So as a DK im not allowed to use bow/DW? Just not allowed huh?

The devs said you "can play how you want", they never promised you'd be any good at it. My Stan DK uses DW/Bow to great effect in PvP also. You just need to learn to adapt and improvise.

Tormjolnir

Come the Dark Brotherhood patch anyone wanting to a stam gap closer can use the new Silver leash Morph of Silver Bullets from the fighters guild line.

A great addition to anyone wanting to use Dual Wield.

Cheers,
Jeremy (Torunnson)

Kas

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

Kas wrote: »

i really prefer a game of choice and sacrifices.
after all, you have two bars. If there was a perfect build that had it all, people would just play that and complain about how the remaining difference need to be balanced better.

it's much "easier" to balance if builds sacrifice something nice. e.g. on the pts, stam dks have their best single target dps with dw and dots but seriously lack burst/execute potential. they can combine it with 2h and get the execute, gap closer and burst. however, bows are also incredibly nice (also the best way to counter malubeth through magnum shot) and benefit from the HA buff and 1h+s work extremely well to make DKs tanky and set them up for long sustain-based fights. imho all combinations of the 4 weapon choices are somewhat viable. If one line had full offense and another perfect defense, this variety would be lost.

But your forgetting DW has NOTHING going for it, as an offensive melee weapon it is useless! Anything a DW abilty can do another weapon line can do it better. I wouldn't mind DW being so mediocre if it just had a gap closer.

nope. hightest dps is form dw. highest wd (and thus hightest damage on class bailities and ultimates) and the msa enchant can actually be used nicely to buff the dk dots. not the typical choice for pvp but "NOTHING going for it" is different

Animus-ESO

Tormjolnir wrote: »

Come the Dark Brotherhood patch anyone wanting to a stam gap closer can use the new Silver leash Morph of Silver Bullets from the fighters guild line.

A great addition to anyone wanting to use Dual Wield.

Cheers,
Jeremy (Torunnson)

It counts as a hard CC and gives immunity, The same issue with old chains. Not a solution.