Stamina Sorcerer Feedback Thread: Patch 2.4.3 Update - Crit surge now affected by Battle Spirit

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Storm Calling

• Hurricane (Lightning Form morph): Updated the visual effects for this morph based on your feedback.
• Surge: This ability and its morphs will now critically heal based on your Weapon Critical or Spell Critical, whichever is higher. We also fixed an issue where the heal from this ability and its morphs was not being reduced by Battle Spirit.

Note that most of the replies in this poll happened BEFORE we were sure that Crit surge was going to be further reduced by battle spirit. Please also note that a majority of us feel that the issues affecting stamina sorcerer go so far beyond crit surge, and dislike that the assumption that stam sorc can be fixed or improved solely by tweaking this ability.

PTS testing Patch 2.4.3: Critical Surge in PvP (with battle spirit nerf) Character has 27 points into blessed (10% healing given) and 46 Points into quick recovery (10% healing taken)

Even though Crit Surge doesn't heal for the entirety of the damage done, there still appears to be a cooldown.



What is the point of allowing DOTs to proc Crit surge if the cooldown still eats all the heals?!?!?!?!

The cooldown put in place only because of DOTs, now that the ability doesn't heal big on big hits, we still have a cooldown? That is the worst of both worlds.




Edit: Updates from Patch 2.4.2


Dark Magic

• Dark Exchange: Increased the amount of health restored from this ability and its morphs by 100%.

Storm Calling

• Disintegrate: Renamed this passive ability to Implosion. This passive ability now also grants all Physical Damage you deal a chance to instantly pulverize low health enemies, dealing additional Physical Damage to them. Updated this passive’s tooltip to indicate what the health threshold is for it to trigger.
• Energized: This passive ability now also increases your Physical Damage done in addition to the Shock Damage done.
• Hurricane (Lightning Form morph): This morph now also grants the Minor Expedition buff at all times while it is active.
• Surge: This ability and its morphs now restore a flat value of health whenever you deal a Critical Strike. It will now also proc on any Critical Strike instead of only direct damage Critical Strikes, but can only restore health once every second.

Discussion of new changes in this thread starts HERE
I will continue to update the Issues and Solutions sections (posts #2 and #3) when the feedback gets a chance to settle a bit.




@Wrobel In your "Dark Brotherhood Combat Changes" thread you said the most helpful feedback is supported by "specific details, math, and logic." This is my attempt to achieve some sort of "meeting of the minds" between the Development team and the Stamina Sorc Community.

To everyone else that likes playing stam sorc, you can help by adding links to all your previous suggestions here so we can all have them in one place. I will update this initial post once people start contributing. Let's keep this thread focused on Stamina Sorcs and keep the Hurricane memes at bay. We have a lot of work to do so let's get started.


PART ONE: Sorcerer Stamina Builds vs the stamina builds of other classes: Why Sorcerer doesn't match up.

Here are the four criteria that make certain classes have strong stamina builds in ESO and why the proposed changes to stamina sorcerer are not yet enough to be considered a serious endgame stamina build for PvE or PvP.

A stamina build, by definition uses stamina based skills (primarily) for DPS and magicka skills (primarily) for utility. The classes that have the strongest stamina builds have at least one CLASS SKILL (or passive) in each of the following categories:

1. An instant cast, CLASS BASED ability that scales of stamina and does PHYSICAL damage.
2. A magika based class utility ability that directly supports stamina by returning stamina, increasing stamina regen, weapon damage/crit, or mobility.
3. A class based passive that directly supports stamina by returning stamina, increasing stamina regen, weapon damage/crit, or mobility.
4. An class ability that reduces the enemies physical resistance

If you look at what the other classes have in these four categories, you can see why the Sorcerers fall so short in stamina performance and why the proposed changes (i.e. Hurricane) not only do very little to bridge the gap but actually decrease Stam Sorc utility (lighting form).

Templar Class Skills and Passives that Support Stamina
1. Direct Damage: Biting Jabs/ Stam Javelin
2. Stam Support Utility: Repentance (free)
3. Passives that support stamina: Balanced warrior
4. Armor Debuff: Power of the light

Dragonknight Class Skills and Passives that Support Stamina
1. Direct Damage:Burning Breath, Unstable Flame, Dragon Leap (Ultimate)
2. Stam Support Utility:Green Dragon Blood, Flames of Oblivion, igneous weapons
3. Passives that support stamina:Battle Roar, Mountain's Blessing, Helping Hands
4. Armor Debuff:Burning Breath, Corrosive Armor

Nightblade Class Skills and Passives that Support Stamina
1. Killer's Blade, Ambush, power extraction, Surprise attack, and now Incapacitating Strike (ultimate)
2. Stam Support Utility: Relentless Focus, siphoning attacks, power extractions, double take
3. Passives that support stamina:Master Assassin, pressure points, hemorrhage, refreshing shadows(30% stam regen with no need to slot anything)
4. Armor Debuff:Mark Target, Surprise attack

Looking at this list it is immediately clear which classes have the strongest stamina build and why. Now lets apply these four criteria to sorcerer:

Sorcerer (Current)
1. Direct Damage Class Based Stamina Skill: NOTHING except Hurricane, which is a huge Utility Loss (see below)
2. Stam Support Utility: Nothing that returns stamina. Bound Armaments (takes two slots for 8% max stamina and paltry armor), Dark Deal (very hard to use in combat), Boundless Storm (mobility utility), Critical Surge
3. Passives that support stamina: unholy knowledge (5% stam cost reduction), Expert Mage - Increase spell/weapon damage 2% per sorc ability (Now outshadowed by 3% fighters guild passive) Daedric Protection (20% health and stam recovery but ONLY when Daedric summoning ability is slotted)
4. Armor Debuff: NOTHING

Calling @ZOS_GinaBruno to try to get some Developer attention to this thread. @ZOS_RichLambert We could really use a /lurk on this. Haven't seen one of those in a while.

Also calling the rest of the stam sorc community to help me link all the previous suggestions we have posted all over the net. Try to keep this thread positive, on track, and not to argue among ourselves and keep this discussion civil and factual. @Ajax_22 @Erock25 @PainfulFAFA @Emma_Eunjung @FENGRUSH @Dyride @ahzek @Jar_Ek @Dracane @mistermutiny89 @Huggalump @Spearblade @Tyrannitar Please link anyone else I missed.

Edit 1: Thank you everyone for contributing. Click HERE to view Eric Wrobel's Response to this thread. Thanks to the developers for reading and responding.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

PART TWO: The Problems

What are the glaring issues with the sorcerer as a stamina class that the other classes don't seem to have? I will add feedback of this category to this post.

1. Sorcerers still lack an direct damage instant cast ability that does Physical damage that is available to EVERY other class. What about Hurricane? We'll get to that.
2. Hurricane: Like it's predecessor thundering presence, Hurricane represents too much of a utility loss to be slotted over boundless storm. The major expedition and armor is too valuable as a utility to use the other morph . As I said earlier, Stamina builds use stamina for DPS, Magicka for utility. This is a utility spell. Refreshing it ruins the increased damage and radius effect. Unless it provides major expedition for the ENTIRE duration, in addition to armor and much higher static DPS, I don't see it ever being used. Even then its trying to fix the entire class with one skill.
3. Daedric Protection: Gives 20% health and stam recovery but ONLY when Daedric summoning ability is slotted. Difficult because Sorcs have to slot so many non-class skills for both DPS and healing its hard to find TWO slots for Bound armaments - which is the only Daedric Summoning skill that really makes sense to use.
4. Expert Mage: A few patches ago. Expert Mage was changed from reducing the cost of storm calling spells to increasing spell and weapon damage. The cost reduction was very important to Stamina sorcs as Streak is a very valuable utility and very expensive for stamina. The problem with the weapon damage buff is two fold: Stam Sorcs don't have enough room on their bar for many storm calling skills, and the new fighters guild passive gives more weapon damage.
5. Streak Cost: As seen above, streak is a fun and class defining ability. The changes make this spell prohibitively expensive for stamina sorcerers.
6. Critical Surge (from the comments) the use of impen and the battle spirit nerf greatly reduces the utility of this spell in PvP. Attacking an opponent with a damage shield gives you zero heals. Crit surge doesn't work with Rapid Strikes or DOT based builds.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

PART THREE: The solutions.

What can be done in this patch to improve stamina sorc and bring it up to the level of the other class stamina builds? I will add feedback here after it is posted.

1. Either Revert Thundering presence back to a magicka costing utility spell or give Hurricane Major Expedition for the duration, or 8 seconds of major (or minor) expedition initially that is refreshed when you do damage with the skill.
2. Expert Mage: Reduce Magicka costs by X% for every stamina skill slotted. This will undo the previous change to expert mage and help make streak and other important magicka utility spells more affordable to stamina builds. Based on this suggestion from @Cathexis
3. Streak: Streaking through an enemy and stunning (or causing damage) should reset the 4 second cooldown timer. This reduces the cost of re-positioning for sorcs and rewards sorcerers for staying in the fight while still punishing for using the skill for an escape. (As the time will only be reset if you hit or stun something).
4. A direct damage class based skill that does physical damage and scales off stamina. Lot's of suggestions for this. Crystal Punch Suggestion courtesy of @Pudin Wind based Daedric Prey from @liv3mind. Also see Bound armaments suggestion below.
5. Change pets to scale off either stamina or magicka so PvE stam sorcs can use them. AKA the burning light treatment. Clanfear especially. Physical damage scaling off only magicka is no bueno.
6. Change disintegration proc so that sorc stamina skills can proc it
7. Having physical "wind" or "thunder" damage to compliment magicka lightning damage is a start in the right direction. Perhaps change the overload morph (that buffs heavy attack) to do physical damage and return stamina. You could name it thunderbolt.
8. Bound Armaments: Should get the magelight treatment. Passively grants minor resolve and 8% stamina while slotted. Activating the ability summons a bound Daedric Armament and attacks. Attack costs X stamina and does physical damage. This would give Stam sorcs a much needed direct DPS ability without having to modify any existing magicka skill! (i.e. crystal blast, mages fury, curse) its already a stam ability!

MaxwellC

I've got a problem with the DK stam support all of those are completely wrong. You could've got away with igneous weapons Pre TG but now that's out of the question. The fact you named Flames of Oblivion as another is pretty funny as it's useless and in-comparison to the Fighters guild increase crit skill it's even worse, as expert hunter and morphs are way better than it (which is open to every class might I add). No viable stam DK can even utilize Green dragons blood in PvP and it's not even worth slotting in PvE when you could slot vigor instead. The high magicka cost doesn't help when your pool is on average 10k Magicka and don't get me started with how it's buffs doesn't stack with potions nor does it heal you to full.

The only stam support skill we would technically have is Igneous shield as that provides a modest shield but the main part is the increased healing which goes amazingly together with vigor/rally.

I won't critic your insta damage abilities even though they're terribly weak and not useful unless you're dueling (aside from take flight ultimate).

I really wish you didn't call corrosive armor an armor de-buff when you can stun someone who has it and watch/laugh as they wasted a 200 ultimate that has it's time limited at 10.8 seconds.

Stam Sorc

I will say yeah stam sorcs need a stamina based class skill I do agree with you on that. I'm not sure what they can use though as I don't even play the class. I've seen hurricane in use before and I wished they gave us that which use to be Flames of Oblivion before it was changed to a mage light re-skin.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

I've got a problem with the DK stam support all of those are completely wrong....I will say yeah stam sorcs need a stamina based class skill I do agree with you on that. I'm not sure what they can use though as I don't even play the class.

Stamina DK's are very strong on the PTS. Perhaps they are strong for reasons other than the ones I mentioned. If you feel that stam DKs need a buff, start a thread about it. Lets keep this thread about Stam sorcs.

Xael

Solution

We need is Stamina morph of Crystal Blast that mirrors the Frag morph. This will also make use of the Dark Magic passives, something most Stam Sorc lack.

Crystal Blast:
(Crystal Blast Rank IV)
Cost - 2268 Stamina | Cast Time - 1s | Radius/Range 28m range (Enemy)

Conjure dark crystals to bombard an enemy, dealing [x] Magic Damage and knocking them down for 2 seconds.
Casting other spells & abilities has a 35% chance of causing your next Crystal Fragments to be instant, doing 20% more damage, and costing 50% less Stamina.
Chance to make ability instant cast.
Now scales off Weapon Damage and Max Stamina.

Also a redesign to the Exploitation (Dark Magic) passive:
Rank I
Activating a Dark Magic ability grants Minor Prophecy & Savagery to nearby allies, increasing Spell & Weapon Critical by [x] for 10 seconds.
Dark Magic Rank 39

Rank II
Activating a Dark Magic ability grants Minor Prophecy & Savagery to nearby allies, increasing Spell & Weapon Critical by [x] for 20 seconds.
Dark Magic Rank 50

Problem solved, Stam Sorcs now awesome.

*edit Before everyone rolls in crying "too op" it can still be dodged and most stam monkeys spam dodge roll and use Shuffle which happens to be OP as hell. Keeping it just like frags will allow us to mask it in a Crit Rush or Streak enabling us to set up a nice burst combo. With the changes to Wrecking Blow, Stam Sorcs are going to suck immensely at bursting.



I would not be opposed to having one the Mages Fury morphs scale with Stamina and Weapon Damage, they just need to make it as good as Executioner, otherwise there is no reason to use it. Would be cool to feel like a Sorcerer and hurl lightning around.

Since v2.1 Stamina Sorcs have only gotten worse. Mind you this is something I mained on for years in various incarnations.

Thundering Presence was a joke and the new one isn't any better.
Currently we are a class neutral weapon spec and I have no desire to continue playing this halfass pos.

DDuke

I agree that stam sorcs need some more love and Hurricane not giving Major Expedition is a big nerf.

However, what I find to be the biggest problem of stamina sorcs is none of what you listed. It's the lack of a good CC.

Previously you had Wrecking Blow as kind of a CC & spammable DPS skill - well, you can still Wrecking Blow for damage (or use the new Flurry), but where are you going to get the CC from?


Also, you left out a pretty big one from your sorc passives list:

Daedric Protection
Increases your Health and Stamina recovery by 20% when a Daedric Summoning ability is slotted.


Anyway, back on topic: I'd add a CC portion to the Hurricane skill (maybe a knockback/knockdown after full duration or upon activation) & that alone goes a long way to fixing stamina sorc issues.

I don't think stamina sorcerers need a spammable dps skill, there's a reason DW & 2H skills exist.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

DDuke wrote: »

I agree that stam sorcs need some more love and Hurricane not giving Major Expedition is a big nerf.

However, what I find to be the biggest problem of stamina sorcs is none of what you listed. It's the lack of a good CC.

Previously you had Wrecking Blow as kind of a CC & spammable DPS skill - well, you can still Wrecking Blow for damage (or use the new Flurry), but where are you going to get the CC from?


Also, you left out a pretty big one from your sorc passives list:

Daedric Protection
Increases your Health and Stamina recovery by 20% when a Daedric Summoning ability is slotted.


Anyway, back on topic: I'd add a CC portion to the Hurricane skill (maybe a knockback/knockdown after full duration or upon activation) & that alone goes a long way to fixing stamina sorc issues.

I don't think stamina sorcerers need a spammable dps skill, there's a reason DW & 2H skills exist.

Hurricane would have to give Major Expedition for the duration to be truly valuable. Otherwise you would want to refresh it and this would eat up your stam. This was the same problem with thundering presence. You can refresh boundless storm as much as you want because it's a magicka sink and a good utility skill.

Why can't hurricane become the other morph of liquid lightning, (the bigger radius one) that no one uses? That way you could use it with boundless storm.

PainfulFAFA

Oh man, idk where to begin.
Stam sorcs have been on life support for too long, i think this will be the patch that i finally quit it.
TL;DR: Ineffective Abilities (Crystal Blast, Overload, Thundering Prescence/Hurricane), Lack of Passives, Passives dont make sense, My 5 Solutions.

Ineffecitve Abilties
Thundering presence was not viable for PvP because it had a short duration that constantly needed to be refreshed, and the damage was weak (because Shock damage). In short, the only thing thundering presence did was drain stamina. Its not even viable for tanking for the very same reason.Essentially, too much stam used, nothing viable in return. Boundless storm is obviously a better choice.

Overload's 3rd bar is a nice tool to have but the only abilities we can use is Sorc, Guild, Undaunted, or Alliance skills. Its hard to concieve a viable build as a stamina sorc in which Overload does DECENT damage that synergizes well with those skill lines. Another problem i have with Overload is the animation upon activation. It has a delay when switching to your 3rd bar and it takes GREAT SKILL to master the art of Overload bar- swapping in the middle of a fight (even during lag). Sometimes itll work, other times its a nightmare shuffling thru 3 bars trying to get to the right one. Overload also needs to have some sort of Physical damage/penetration into it.

Crit surge is a great ability for PvE, but ONLY for PvE. Why? Because none of the monsters in PvE is wearing 7/7 Impen and all CP into Crit Resistance. Oh and IF you do get a nice crit on somebody, the heals will automatically be cut in half thanks to Battle Spirit. Again, Crit Surge heals is NEVER viable in PvP. The burst meta is at its peak with 20k wrecking blows, 20k jesus beams, 13k prox dets, 408k gap closers, and snare/roots to be depending on 1k heals every now and then.

Crystal blast. Oh boy. I never though this ability would make it this far in the game. 1 second cast time for a rock that will do <50% of the damage (dont forget Battle Spirit lul)? This ability needs to be scrapped. Nothing else to be said of this ability because it doesnt do much lol.

Lack of Passives
My other issue with Stam sorc is the lack of passives that work with them. As far as i know there are only 3 passives that impact Stamina sorcs.
-Unholy Knowledge (reduce stam cost 5%)
-Daedric Protection (20% stam rege, requires ability slot)
-Expert mage (2% wpn dmg per ability slotted)

3 passives.... OUT OF 12. Thats why stam sorcs are at the bottom. Theres nothing that supports them. They look nice and cool because they are speedy but speed isnt going to heal you, sustain you, or dps for you. There are just too many WASTED passives and morphs.

I honestly think the devs had no intention/did not expect for stamina sorcs to be a thing. Just think about the class theme.
Shock, Pets, Magic.

Passives are all over the place and some of them dont make sense...
- Like 5% extra shock damage? But then they make Hurricane do Physical damage?

-6% Disintegrate procs ONLY on low health and with shock damage. Not too many shock options available and they all scale off of magicka and my CP wont work. Shock damage enchants would work but that would mean no vMA, disease, weapon power, or other useful options that would help me get the enemy down to low health in the first place..

- Restores 1k magicka when a pet is unsummoned/killed? First off all it only works with pets. Secopnd, i need to summon the pet in the first place. Thirdly, i will need 2 bar slots. LOL no.

- Using dark mage ability gives minor spell crit. Hmm.....

- An entire passive dedicated to simple pet buffs. Things like movement, twilight dmg, atro range. Wish i got those bonuses, not my pets.

-2% dmg per ability slotted, when fighters guild passive grants 3% per slotted....

- Doing damage with Dark Magic ability heals for 8% health.... as far as i know Crystal Frag, Mines, and Shattering Prison are the only things that do damage (magic dmg). The new Negate MIGHT work, but meh. Its just meh.

-Capacitor's increase Magicka Recovery. They could add some sort of ultimate regen, reduce cost of blocking, reduce cost of roll dodge, or applying a buff/debuff everytime you are hit (afterall, a capacitor stores energy, so we use that energy for something right?) instead of just a % increase only to a certain playstyle.

My Solutions:
1) Disintegrate is a GREAT passive but it ONLY works with shock damage. They need to find a way to incorporate Disintegrate without it depending so much on shock damage. Call it something else if you have to. Make it proc on Stormcall abilties only or make it dependent on Streaking. Maybe give us other options to cause shock damage.

2) Pets. I know the whole idea is for Sorc to be able to fight with their summoned companions but why cant 1 of the companions be a Dremora? With a 2H? Or a bow? What if stam sorcs had the ability to conjure up weapons that fight next to them? Two of the Sorc's passives are dedicated to their pets for crying out loud. Pets have better support than stam sorcs imo.


3) Remove Crystal blast. Just remove it plz. Nothing else to be said other than a Crystal FIST sounds super cool. Or maybe a crystal arrow?

4) Passives. 3 out of 12 passives that stam sorcs benefit from. That is why they are at the bottom. Passives like Expert Summoner, Persistance, Rebate, Capacitor, Energized, can be used to provide more options like conjure a sword strike for every pet unsummon/kill, or drain enemy stamina for using a Dark magic ability. These passives are just robbing away from what a stam sorc could be.

5) Overload. Overload's bar-swapping animation needs to be a little smoother to allow rapid bar swapping. That way we can weave in a couple of overloads without looking like clowns and getting bar jammed.

These solutions i provide arent going to fix them 100%. They are simple steps to help stam sorcs based on my experiences. Like i said before, Hurricane will NOT make stam sorcs anymore viable than what it is. If they leave stam sorcs as is, they will be the most under performing class in the game once it goes live due to changes in other skill lines.

Edit: And to the people arguing that sorcerers are beings that use magic.... lol
Why are DK's doing poison damage if theyre supposed to be fire based knight?
If templars are supposed to be healers, why do they get stamina options?

Tonturri

I sent in a suggestion a while back on a stamina spammable DPS ability for the stam sorc. It was...I think, 30% less damage than NB's stamina spammable stam ability, but if it crit it'd switch to an ability that had a 100% crit chance, would apply a debuff or something and do a little more damage (base damage reduced for the procced ability, the 100% crit mainly for healing via crit surge, but the extra damage from crit would make it do somewhat more damage than the 'base' ability). And it would've replaced the less-used version of that crystal throwing ability. The gist of it was that instead of throwing the crystal, the stam sorc would make a punching glove out of it and then hit someone. Think Grim Focus, except on crit instead of on 10 light attacks.

Maybe the crit crystal fist could explode for AoE damage or apply the armor debuff. Or do shock damage and call it lightning punch. (:O so that it could possibly have synergy with the below suggestion?!).

I also suggested Disintegrate receive a massive damage nerf, but a pretty hefty proc % increase. I've always thought that a 6% (or whatever it is now, I think it's still ridiculously low) chance to instantly kill someone was stupid. IIRC the proc chance was 20 or 30%, but the damage was 1000-2000. There was some math I did such that the DPS of the 30% version was the same as the 6% version, but I have forgotten and I'm not doing it again.

*tosses in 2c*

acw37162

Solutions.

Forgive my French;

Un-f%#k Hurricane
-add major expidition back
-refreshed while at max modifier and distance keeps the ability at max distance and modifier


Disentigrate Passive
-add physical damage chance to proc passive if stamina higher then magica pool (basically lightening damage for Mag Sorcs or physical damage for stam socs)

Stamina sorcs were very reliant on wrecking blow for the CC effect and the empower now we have to choose taking up two slots which is complicated because BA is a toggle. Need a stamina based class specific hard (4.5 sec CC) or a class specific skill that give minor berserk to make up empower or cc loss.

Both morphs of surge having a 8 % chance on light and heavy attacks to proc major berserk for 2/3/4/6 seconds would work nicely.

A version of overload that scales off WD and Max Stamina and gives stamina back

PainfulFAFA

Tonturri wrote: »

I sent in a suggestion a while back on a stamina spammable DPS ability for the stam sorc. It was...I think, 30% less damage than NB's stamina spammable stam ability, but if it crit it'd switch to an ability that had a 100% crit chance, would apply a debuff or something and do a little more damage (base damage reduced for the procced ability, the 100% crit mainly for healing via crit surge, but the extra damage from crit would make it do somewhat more damage than the 'base' ability). And it would've replaced the less-used version of that crystal throwing ability. The gist of it was that instead of throwing the crystal, the stam sorc would make a punching glove out of it and then hit someone. Think Grim Focus, except on crit instead of on 10 light attacks.

Maybe the crit crystal fist could explode for AoE damage or apply the armor debuff. Or do shock damage and call it lightning punch. (:O so that it could possibly have synergy with the below suggestion?!).

I also suggested Disintegrate receive a massive damage nerf, but a pretty hefty proc % increase. I've always thought that a 6% (or whatever it is now, I think it's still ridiculously low) chance to instantly kill someone was stupid. IIRC the proc chance was 20 or 30%, but the damage was 1000-2000. There was some math I did such that the DPS of the 30% version was the same as the 6% version, but I have forgotten and I'm not doing it again.

*tosses in 2c*

I dont think there should be a spammable dps ability, because it would take away from the uniquess i think. There are 5-6 passives that are completely useless, 4/5 that are somewhat usefull, and 3 that stam sorcs can benefit from when EVERY OTHER CLASS have benefits all over the place built in.

Passives from Daedric Summoning that proc and conjure weapons.
Crystal Fist/Arrow that procs off of stam abilties (similar to frag)
More options to do shock damage.
Using magic to enhance/drain the body's agility/endurance

As for disintegration, the 6% is fine as is, since its similar to bloodspawn and that procs alot for me. The problem is that it ONLY procs on LOW HEALTH targets. Low health is ambiguous but im think its anything <50%? Maybe 30% i cant remember.

Emma_Overload

I understand why people want a Stamina Frags, and I would enjoy it for sure, but... I would rather have a Stamina version of Velocious Curse. When I look at the logs of my PvP skirmishes, Velocious Curse seems like it delivers the "killing blow" more often than Frags or Fury, which kind of surprises me. I think the reason Curse works so well is that most players simply don't see it coming and don't how to purge it or anticipate the damage. These same guys have been trained to look for Frags procs, so they're already dodging while it's flying through the air.

The second biggest issue is Overload. The current scaling for Stamina builds is not working. Even if the tooltip looks good, the Stamina Overloads hit like spitballs. There really needs to be a proper Physical damage morph for Overload so all the CP passives and penetration stats work in our favor. Maybe Stam Sorcs could have Power Overload so Mag Sorcs could keep the version that returns Magicka. The heavy attack range of Power Overload should come with the base morph.

The pet situation is really outrageous. The special attacks and heals are just way too expensive! Doesn't the Clannfear heal cost like 4000 Magicka or something on a Stam Sorc? That's twice as high as it should be. The Hunt Leader gear set looks cool, but it was made for a build and playstyle that don't exist.

Finally, my personal peeve is the fact that so few damage skills are compatible with Surge heals. It's time to revisit what causes Surge to proc and take DOTs and channels off the blacklist.

Ajax_22

@Yolokin_Swagonborn You mean you want me to put down my riot signs, and be a constructive member of society? I guess I can this once; for the good of the Stam Sorc.

@Wrobel Has actually created an interesting precedent with Hurricane. We can use this to make Magic Sorcs lighting based, and Stam Sorcs wind based. This would be interesting if it was expanded upon. All Stam Sorc damaging abilities listed below would be wind (physical) damage that would allow it to benefit from my changes to Sorc lighting passives.

I'm going to go through my list of everything that can be changed to improve Stamina Sorcerer game play. This list includes some non Stam Sorc specific changes; some of these improvements would benefit Sorcs as a whole, and one would benefit stam classes in general. I'll start by going through Sorc skills, then passives, and finish off with the non class specific improvement.

Class Skills

• Hurricane
  • The suggestion of adding a stun or knock back to the end of its duration has been thrown around. I personally hate this idea. Players should be in control of their CC at all times. Adding an automatic AOE CC at the end of a 15 second skill is not a good game change. If I don't want to CC my target at that particular time I then have to either disengage or recast the skill at 1-2 seconds left, and lose out on the highest damage tics and have to expend more stam over the course of a fight. Additionally, this is impossible to gauge on consoles due to no buff or debuff timers. All this skill needs is Major Expedition added for the full 15 second duration. This would force Stam Sorcs to choose between an offensive morph with mobility, that cost stam, or a defensive morph with mobility that can be used as a magic dump.
• Crystal Blast
  • I don't like the idea of having this morph be a stam mimic for Crystal Fragments. I think it would cause to much homogenization between Magic and Stam Sorcs. However, I would be happy to accept that change. What I would like to see done with this skill is significantly reduce damage, and make it an instant cast single target CC, or completely remove the damage component, and make it an instant cast on target AOE CC that caps at 3 targets. For the former I'm torn between whether it should cost magic for a nice magic dump or stam for a bit more damage, but for AOE CC it should defiantly be magic based. This would give both Magic and Stam Sorcs access to a hard CC that the class lacks.
• Dark Exchange
  • This skill is probably used less than our pets are; which is saying a lot. Leave Dark Deal as is, because this is actually used by some Sorc tanks, and I wouldn't want to take anything away from those poor guys. Dark Conversion on the other hand is completely unused, and this skill could provide some interesting sustainability. I'll provide a couple of ideas for this ability, ranging from simple to off the wall:
  1. • Make it a mirror of Siphoning Attacks or something similar to it. Again not my favorite idea due to homogenization, but it would be an effective stam regen skill.
     • Remove the cast time, and adjust the values if needed.
     • Completly change the ability. Make it instant, no cost ability that last from 5-15 seconds. For the duration of the ability any skills that cost stamina have their cost taken from the players magic pool instead. While active stamina regen is reduced by X% (somewhere between 5%-20% seems like a reasonable cost). Casting the ability while it is already active would cancel the effect. The cost of Dodge Roll, Break Free, and Block would still cost stamina, and the damage value of abilities would still scale off stamina and weapon damage.
• Summon Storm Atronarch
  • Make one of the morphs summon an Air Atronarch that does physical damage. This change could make the Atronarch a mobile melee pet, or keep it as stationary and ranged.
• Unstable Familiar and Summon Winged Twilight
  • I personally don't like pets in this game. They take up to many slots, and there is no way to control what they are doing. However making these scale off stam or magic would be a simple change, and could provide some interesting synergy with the new Pact Leader morph for a pet build.
• Bound Armor
  • Give both of these morphs the same treatment as Mage Light and Expert Hunter. This would remove the requirement of needing these skills on both bars.
• Overload
  • Make one of the morphs a physical based wind morph. I would actually prefer them to be mirrors here, the physical giving stam back and the lighting giving magic back. The other, less desirable, solution would be to make Energy Overload give stam back as well. I think the latter could cause some balance issues with Magic Sorcs being able to regen stam at insane rates.
• Mage's Furry
  • My preferred change for this ability would be to change it from an execute to a spamable ability giving one morph to Magic Sorcs, and one to Stam Sorcs (a new execute will be addressed later in this post). Make the damage on par with skills such as Swallow Soul and Surprise Attack. The other solution is to simply combine the two current morphs, and then make a new melee wind morph for stam.
• Crit Surge
  • Honestly this still will never reach it's full potential until damage shields can be crit, but that's a separate topic. A change that could be done to improve the viability of this skill is to allow DoTs to proc it for 25% of the damage done.

Passives

• Exploitation
  • Add Minor Savagery to this passive.
• Expert Summoner
  • If the melee version of the Air Atronarch is used then update it to reduce the duration or effectiveness of snares on the Atronarch. Otherwise leave it as is.
• Energized
  • Update it to increase wind damage (read Sorc specific physical skills) by 3%.
• Disintegrate
  • Change the name to Shock and Awe, because it's badass. Then give all wind abilities a 3% chance to do the same X damage to low health targets.

General Skill/Execute

• Trapping Webs
  • Scrap the current version of this skill and make it an execute ability. Make the base skill a magic execute, and give one morph to magic users and one to stam users. Put the damage of the magic morph on par with the current Mage's Wrath, (the weakest execute in game) and put the stam morph on par with executioner. This would give Dragonknights (and Magic Sorcs if the Mage's Fury change was adopted) an execute ability, which the class currently has no access too. This would also allow stam users to finally stop relying on the Two Hand skill line for an execute.

A lot of the skill changes would require animation update so I don't expect any of them to be done, especially not anytime soon. However there are a lot of good changes that could be made to improve Stam Sorcs that have been posted in this thread, and talked about by some of our more passionate community members such as @FENGRUSH.

Armann

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

I understand why people want a Stamina Frags, and I would enjoy it for sure, but... I would rather have a Stamina version of Velocious Curse. When I look at the logs of my PvP skirmishes, Velocious Curse seems like it delivers the "killing blow" more often than Frags or Fury, which kind of surprises me. I think the reason Curse works so well is that most players simply don't see it coming and don't how to purge it or anticipate the damage. These same guys have been trained to look for Frags procs, so they're already dodging while it's flying through the air.

I agree, I kinda don't want to sacrifice Crystal Blast unless this becomes the base ability. Only ZoS knows how many use this skill so any claim from forum posters that it's never used is just false unless we can get some hard data from ZoS on it. Curse would be a good candidate for stam sorcs, let the Dark Magic tree be all about magic and focus stam sorc improvements in Daedric Summoning and Storm Caller.

Mojomonkeyman

Despite me agreeing with the general message that Stamsorcs need love, I just disagree with the analysis and solutions most of you provide. I play Stamsorc since eternities.

Stamsorc does NOT need a spammable direct dmg skill that just replaces wpn abilities for the sake of replacing them. This game doesnt need ANY more spammable damage abilities. This game doesn`t need another surprise attack.

Stamsorc is NOT reliant on Wrecking Blow and never was.

Stamsorc is NOT reliant on any morph of Boundless Storm.

Those opinions of mine are based on playing a Stamsorc for a long time solo in PvP.

I assume the sudden influx of Stamsorc demands now stem from the fact that a lot of Magsorcs are desperately looking into alternatives since they are afraid of losing their easymode and are in hope that they can somehow replace that with a pimped Stamsorc setup (DB stam update yadda yadda).

I don`t want ZOS catering to that kind of audience. That kind of biased balancing demands is what brought us the overtuned meta we have.

If Stamsorcs get another boost, I sincerely hope it will be a subtle one, more focusing on passives supporting our playstyle.

PainfulFAFA

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Despite me agreeing with the general message that Stamsorcs need love, I just disagree with the analysis and solutions most of you provide. I play Stamsorc since eternities.

Stamsorc does NOT need a spammable direct dmg skill that just replaces wpn abilities for the sake of replacing them. This game doesnt need ANY more spammable damage abilities. This game doesn`t need another surprise attack.

Stamsorc is NOT reliant on Wrecking Blow and never was.

Stamsorc is NOT reliant on any morph of Boundless Storm.

Those opinions of mine are based on playing a Stamsorc for a long time solo in PvP.

I assume the sudden influx of Stamsorc demands now stems from the fact that a lot of Magsorcs are desperately looking into alternatives since they are afraid of losing their easymode and are in hope that they can somehow replace that with a pimped Stamsorc setup (DB stam update yadda yadda).

I don`t want ZOS catering to that kind of audience. That kind of biased balancing demands is what brought us the overtuned meta we have.

If Stamsorcs get another boost, I sincerely hope it will be a subtle one, more focusing on passives supporting our playstyle.

Sudden influx of stam sorcs? Lol hardly. This is like the 5th thread on the topic because the stam sorc minority has been neglected for far too long.

People barely touch on the stam sorc subject because nobody has every played it or is interested in playing it.
Wrecking blow hasnt even been mentioned, this is purely on the Sorcerer class.

Mojomonkeyman

Dude, cant you even quote correctly? You forgot to bold one word that gives my message another context and leaves your reply void... come on. Kindergarden level now?

Mojomonkeyman

acw37162 wrote: »

Solutions.
...

Stamina sorcs were very reliant on wrecking blow for the CC effect and the empower now we have to choose taking up two slots which is complicated because BA is a toggle. Need a stamina based class specific hard (4.5 sec CC) or a class specific skill that give minor berserk to make up empower or cc loss.

....

Those are the kind of inputs I was targeting my comment regarding WB at. Should be obvious since I didnt refer to you as OP exclusively.

Next.

Ajax_22

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Despite me agreeing with the general message that Stamsorcs need love, I just disagree with the analysis and solutions most of you provide. I play Stamsorc since eternities.

Stamsorc does NOT need a spammable direct dmg skill that just replaces wpn abilities for the sake of replacing them. This game doesnt need ANY more spammable damage abilities. This game doesn`t need another surprise attack.

Stamsorc is NOT reliant on Wrecking Blow and never was.

Stamsorc is NOT reliant on any morph of Boundless Storm.

Those opinions of mine are based on playing a Stamsorc for a long time solo in PvP.

I assume the sudden influx of Stamsorc demands now stem from the fact that a lot of Magsorcs are desperately looking into alternatives since they are afraid of losing their easymode and are in hope that they can somehow replace that with a pimped Stamsorc setup (DB stam update yadda yadda).

I don`t want ZOS catering to that kind of audience. That kind of biased balancing demands is what brought us the overtuned meta we have.

If Stamsorcs get another boost, I sincerely hope it will be a subtle one, more focusing on passives supporting our playstyle.

Contrary to popular opinion, and all the doom and gloom posts. Magic Sorcs actually got a buff with all the shield changes. However, there will now be a much wider divide between good and bad Magic Sorcs. I can promise you these "influx of Stam Sorc demands" are not from the later group of Magic Sorcs. Those guys are going to roll a Stam Nightblade or DK. These post have always been around. There is just more of them, and more prevalent, because this patch was stam love patch, and Stam Sorcs have received nothing. I disagree completely that Stam Sorcs need a subtle buffs. If Stam Sorcs are ever going to be on par with other classes then it is going to require big sweeping changes to the entire class.

PainfulFAFA

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Dude, cant you even quote correctly? You forgot to bold one word that gives my message another context and leaves your reply void... come on. Kindergarden level now?

Dude if you re-read what you posted, you start by saying stam sorcs dont need spammable dps. Great, i get it, i feel the same way.

Then youre saying storcs arent reliant on Wrecking blow and Lightning form.
Ok i get it, but thats like saying NBs arent reliant on Surprise att and Cloak, or that Templars arent reliant on Jabs and Beams even though thats how you can benefit from all the passives/bonuses. With changes to things like flurry, draining shot heals, and WB, storcs might have other options. But until that patch comes, what other DPS exists for sorcs that isnt outplayed by a 2h?

Next you're saying that the demands from stam sorcs come from people/magicka sorcs looking for easy alternatives even though this is a thread titled "serious stam sorc thread" lol.
The least you could do is provide feedback on the changes and/or future improvements for this playstyle since youve played for so long.
You want buffs in the form of passives? Great, i mentioned that too earlier, but what else can you add other than what others have already said? In fact, the changes to magicka sorcs seem more like buffs.

But i digress, i dont want to derail this thread going back n forth like kindergardeners, for the sake of stam sorc. Why quibble over petty things like syntax.

mistermutiny89

I'm not going to go too far into this because I feel like what others have said, is all that needs to be said. I can only project my amazement as to how hard the Devs fight against buffing stamina sorcerers properly. It's as if someone has a gun to their heads saying "if you buff Stam sorcs, we're going to pull the trigger".

Sure, Stam sorcs can reach the highest stamina pool in the game. Great. That's not everything. The question is.. How are sorcerers seen?? In the game right now, we think: shield stackers and burst dps. That's their fields where they excel. A Stamina sorc has NONE of these attributes. The shield stacking is completely understandable (magicka can have their shields) but stamina sorcs should have BURST.

I still would love to see some of (if not all) these dot points incorporated into the existing sorcerer morphs

HURRICANE

- Reduce the stamina cost
- Have it proc "Disintergrate"
- Extend the Major Expedition buff to match magicka morph
OR
- have it give Snare removal
- Dodge chance (maybe minor evasion)
- Poison damage that has a chance to add major defile to make up for the loss of minor maim from lightning procs.

DARK DEAL

If it's going to take a full second to channel make it matter.

- Double the cost, double the returns (the tiny 20% buff in last patch was not nearly enough).

DAEDRIC PREY

That BURST, I was talking about earlier. If ZoS wants their pet builds FINE.. Daedric Prey can be the unmorphed-morph. Then we have space for a stamina detonation ability.

- Marks one target, can only be placed on one target at a time
- Uncleansable
- Detonates after 4-5 seconds
- Deals disease damage
- Major armour debuff

STAMINA FRAG

Most have covered this. My only suggestion would be make it a little different from any other ability in the way that perhaps it only cc's people BELOW a certain health threshold. I'm no pvp'er but I think many Stam sorcs that PVP would like this change. I think it'd be a good counter to healing warders, saving your stun closer to the kill.

Well, I think I've kept it as short and sweet and I possibly can. Of course, the ultimates and Passives need some work but I'm happy to make the above the priority.

Let's pray they squeeze some more changes into the PTS before Dark Brotherhood.

Thanks for all the effort you've put in @Yolokin_Swagonborn, hopefully it doesn't go unheard.

Tyrannitar

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Oh man, idk where to begin.
Stam sorcs have been on life support for too long, i think this will be the patch that i finally quit it.
TL;DR: Ineffective Abilities (Crystal Blast, Overload, Thundering Prescence/Hurricane), Lack of Passives, Passives dont make sense, My 5 Solutions.

Ineffecitve Abilties
Thundering presence was not viable for PvP because it had a short duration that constantly needed to be refreshed, and the damage was weak (because Shock damage). In short, the only thing thundering presence did was drain stamina. Its not even viable for tanking for the very same reason.Essentially, too much stam used, nothing viable in return. Boundless storm is obviously a better choice.

Overload's 3rd bar is a nice tool to have but the only abilities we can use is Sorc, Guild, Undaunted, or Alliance skills. Its hard to concieve a viable build as a stamina sorc in which Overload does DECENT damage that synergizes well with those skill lines. Another problem i have with Overload is the animation upon activation. It has a delay when switching to your 3rd bar and it takes GREAT SKILL to master the art of Overload bar- swapping in the middle of a fight (even during lag). Sometimes itll work, other times its a nightmare shuffling thru 3 bars trying to get to the right one. Overload also needs to have some sort of Physical damage/penetration into it.

Crit surge is a great ability for PvE, but ONLY for PvE. Why? Because none of the monsters in PvE is wearing 7/7 Impen and all CP into Crit Resistance. Oh and IF you do get a nice crit on somebody, the heals will automatically be cut in half thanks to Battle Spirit. Again, Crit Surge heals is NEVER viable in PvP. The burst meta is at its peak with 20k wrecking blows, 20k jesus beams, 13k prox dets, 408k gap closers, and snare/roots to be depending on 1k heals every now and then.

Crystal blast. Oh boy. I never though this ability would make it this far in the game. 1 second cast time for a rock that will do <50% of the damage (dont forget Battle Spirit lul)? This ability needs to be scrapped. Nothing else to be said of this ability because it doesnt do much lol.

Lack of Passives
My other issue with Stam sorc is the lack of passives that work with them. As far as i know there are only 3 passives that impact Stamina sorcs.
-Unholy Knowledge (reduce stam cost 5%)
-Daedric Protection (20% stam rege, requires ability slot)
-Expert mage (2% wpn dmg per ability slotted)

3 passives.... OUT OF 12. Thats why stam sorcs are at the bottom. Theres nothing that supports them. They look nice and cool because they are speedy but speed isnt going to heal you, sustain you, or dps for you. There are just too many WASTED passives and morphs.

I honestly think the devs had no intention/did not expect for stamina sorcs to be a thing. Just think about the class theme.
Shock, Pets, Magic.

Passives are all over the place and some of them dont make sense...
- Like 5% extra shock damage? But then they make Hurricane do Physical damage?

-6% Disintegrate procs ONLY on low health and with shock damage. Not too many shock options available and they all scale off of magicka and my CP wont work. Shock damage enchants would work but that would mean no vMA, disease, weapon power, or other useful options that would help me get the enemy down to low health in the first place..

- Restores 1k magicka when a pet is unsummoned/killed? First off all it only works with pets. Secopnd, i need to summon the pet in the first place. Thirdly, i will need 2 bar slots. LOL no.

- Using dark mage ability gives minor spell crit. Hmm.....

- An entire passive dedicated to simple pet buffs. Things like movement, twilight dmg, atro range. Wish i got those bonuses, not my pets.

-2% dmg per ability slotted, when fighters guild passive grants 3% per slotted....

- Doing damage with Dark Magic ability heals for 8% health.... as far as i know Crystal Frag, Mines, and Shattering Prison are the only things that do damage (magic dmg). The new Negate MIGHT work, but meh. Its just meh.

-Capacitor's increase Magicka Recovery. They could add some sort of ultimate regen, reduce cost of blocking, reduce cost of roll dodge, or applying a buff/debuff everytime you are hit (afterall, a capacitor stores energy, so we use that energy for something right?) instead of just a % increase only to a certain playstyle.

My Solutions:
1) Disintegrate is a GREAT passive but it ONLY works with shock damage. They need to find a way to incorporate Disintegrate without it depending so much on shock damage. Call it something else if you have to. Make it proc on Stormcall abilties only or make it dependent on Streaking. Maybe give us other options to cause shock damage.

2) Pets. I know the whole idea is for Sorc to be able to fight with their summoned companions but why cant 1 of the companions be a Dremora? With a 2H? Or a bow? What if stam sorcs had the ability to conjure up weapons that fight next to them? Two of the Sorc's passives are dedicated to their pets for crying out loud. Pets have better support than stam sorcs imo.


3) Remove Crystal blast. Just remove it plz. Nothing else to be said other than a Crystal FIST sounds super cool. Or maybe a crystal arrow?

4) Passives. 3 out of 12 passives that stam sorcs benefit from. That is why they are at the bottom. Passives like Expert Summoner, Persistance, Rebate, Capacitor, Energized, can be used to provide more options like conjure a sword strike for every pet unsummon/kill, or drain enemy stamina for using a Dark magic ability. These passives are just robbing away from what a stam sorc could be.

5) Overload. Overload's bar-swapping animation needs to be a little smoother to allow rapid bar swapping. That way we can weave in a couple of overloads without looking like clowns and getting bar jammed.

These solutions i provide arent going to fix them 100%. They are simple steps to help stam sorcs based on my experiences. Like i said before, Hurricane will NOT make stam sorcs anymore viable than what it is. If they leave stam sorcs as is, they will be the most under performing class in the game once it goes live due to changes in other skill lines.

Edit: And to the people arguing that sorcerers are beings that use magic.... lol
Why are DK's doing poison damage if theyre supposed to be fire based knight?
If templars are supposed to be healers, why do they get stamina options?

ZOS please listen to this guy! ^^^

Thal

Great thread - really enjoying the constructive feedback regarding some long overdue changes. Thanks for making this

Definitely agreed on reassessing how crit surge heals. It's currently not viable for healing outside of PvE.

I'd love to see the "crit" aspect of things explored a bit more with class access to minor force.

I also think if ZoS fully developed the wind concept, they could be onto something for Stam. Wind bound weapons rather than armor that gives a meaningful boost to DpS and allows disintegrate passive to proc and a stam/wind CC frags.

RoyJade

I'm a stamsorc who think that stamsorc should be the weapon improver one. StamDK use weapon with their poison attack, stamblade use their pure class skill, stamplar use their skill and a little weapon help, stamsorc should master weapon abilities and improve them further. But they should have some utilities.

Here is a lot of ideas I've seen for stamsorc around the forum, and what I'ld like to see aswell (already posted on the sorc thread but this one have probably more visibility) :

• Hurricane : this morph is bad, really bad. Not so powerful in pve, really weak in pvp. But it is a really good idea, a wind-user stamina warrior is really fun. Hurricane need the ability to keep the max damage and range if refreshed before the end of the effect, and either a damage boost or the major expedition boost for at least half the time.
• Crystal blast : a lot of people would like a spammable stamina ability for stamsorc, but I think stamsorc is better is focusing on weapon enhancement and personal utilities. So, I'ld like to see crystal blast become a stamina close ranged hard cc with a few damage. If they is a cast time, the ability should have both powerful cc and damage, but if the ability have no cast time the damage must be low (more or like stone fist, but with less range and an another animation).
• Pets : they really should scale with both magicka/stamina pool and damage. Stamsorc won't have any shield to protect them, but at least they will have more build available. After all, summon and necromancy in TES lore can use both magic power or stamina force of the user.
• Storm atronash : the first hit of one of the morph really need to do physical damage. It can also be a wind atronash.
• Bound armament : it's actually the core ability of stamsorc, and it can be a really good idea with some help. First, it should be an active ability with passive effect (the 8% more stamina) and long effect (30 second at least), and secondly it should give a better effect when used (a 5% bonus damage to all weapon skill, or something like that).
• Power overload : the heavy overload attack is garbage in any case : weak aoe with weak range and high ultimate cost, cleave/pulsar are far better (and I don't even speak about steel tornado). Someone give the idea to have a wind change for the heavy attack, a canalized attack who do physical damage. It can be a beam with medium range like heavy resto/thunder staff ae, or a conic aoe but with similar damage to overload light attack. Of course, the actual morph effect should be a part of the base skill, just because it look great.
• Mage wrath : the base morph is really weak, and should be the base effect of the morph. Beside, stamsorc should greatly benefit of this skill if it was a close-ranged stamina skill. It can be spammable, but it can simply be execute, aoe or even just a dot.
• Critical surge : since energized and disintegrate are now nearly useless for stamsorc, I would like to see crit surge adding a tiny thunder damage to all weapon damage (or all stamina damage) done. It can be a base number, or an added percentage like 2% of each damage except for targeted dot. It can be a real boost to overall damage without adding too much burst damage (except when disintegrate proc). And more, crit surge will be better than rally with that.
• Ball of lightning : someone suggested adding a stamina gap closer morph for this spell, similar to the enemy mage's one. I don't know if it's necessary with the new change to silver leash, but it may be cool. I might still choose the free direction morph, though.
• Energized : since stamsorc don't use thunder damage anymore, why not a similar change to DK's passive ? With the new amazing storm theme, stamsorc are focused on physical damage. Why not giving energized a boost for all physical damage too ? Of course, since weapon and fighter guild's damage are nearly all physical too, it must be less than 5%, perhaps 2% or 3%.
• Expert mage : with the new change to slayer (warrior guild), expert mage -a class passive- need a boost. Having a fighter guild's ability in our bar give more damage than a sorc one, and moreover fighter guild's abilities are more useful than sorc one for the most part. Stamsors actually can have more weapon damage than everyone to "compensate" their really poor abilities a little, and now this advantage is gone. Or better : give sorc a well needed pve boost by giving this morph 5% critical bonus damage by sorc skill slotted. It won't affect pvp a lot (impen and shield everywhere), but in pve where sorc are the worst dps it will be a great advantage.

And that all for my stamina sorcerer focused ideas. But I really want to add something about pets. They should be a pure active ability, who keep once summoned even on a bar where the skill isn't slotted. If the pet became a long duration "buff" (30 second to one minute), the summon time need to be tweaked a bit. If they became a short duration buff (less tan 30 second, and I hope it won't happen), then they need no summon time. And if they are a continuous duration, we need to be able to unsummon them (perhaps by using the pet key and the pet's ability key at the same time ?). In each case, their abilities still need the skill, and they only can be here if they are slotted on bar 1 or 2, not on overload bar (because you can slot them on overload bar, summon them and de-slot overload).
Oh, and I won't speak about shield duration on player on this post, but please… boost both duration and amount of shield on pets by a serious number. Thanks.

ArgoCye

I guess the longer you say something, it starts to get believed ... but stamsorcs are far from garbage and not the worst stam class (whatever that means). I am not saying they are on par with stamblades or that they have the defensive capabilities of stamDKs, but they're not garbage.

Sorcs have one of the best skills in the game - Crit Surge. They also have great mobility, a good stun, a third ability bar and as good, if not better, passives that Templars. Unholy Knowledge reduces stam costs by 5%, Power Stone - huge reduction in ulti costs (nice if you werewolf), Daedric Protection - health and stam recovery +20% (use Bound Armaments and you have that plus 5% more stam plus 11% more heavy attack damage plus 2% weapon damage - worth it even if it means using two slots), Expert Mage - 2% inc to weapon damage for each sorc ability slotted.

I like the Hurricane change. It will increase DPS, but I do think they should change the Disintegrate passive to include physical damage (tho that might be super potent, but they could adjust the proc percentage). Having Unstable Clanfear's damage stamina-based (it's already physical) would make things interesting and make a couple of those DS passives useful. Those two changes alone would do a lot.

I also think stam sorcs will benefit from the changes to dual wield (flurry), though I haven't seen any tests on this yet.

Xsorus

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

I've got a problem with the DK stam support all of those are completely wrong....I will say yeah stam sorcs need a stamina based class skill I do agree with you on that. I'm not sure what they can use though as I don't even play the class.

Stamina DK's are very strong on the PTS. Perhaps they are strong for reasons other than the ones I mentioned. If you feel that stam DKs need a buff, start a thread about it. Lets keep this thread about Stam sorcs.

Stamina DKs generally don't use a whole lot of class abilities... In fact you can probably get away with the Stamina DK setup on PTS with just about any Class..including Sorc.

Faulgor

All I ever wanted was a Daedric/Dark skill that deals physical poison or disease damage. Could have fit a Peryite-theme really well.

What happens? Dragonknight and Nightblades get poison and disease damage.

It's just not meant to be.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Xsorus wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

I've got a problem with the DK stam support all of those are completely wrong....I will say yeah stam sorcs need a stamina based class skill I do agree with you on that. I'm not sure what they can use though as I don't even play the class.

Stamina DK's are very strong on the PTS. Perhaps they are strong for reasons other than the ones I mentioned. If you feel that stam DKs need a buff, start a thread about it. Lets keep this thread about Stam sorcs.

Stamina DKs generally don't use a whole lot of class abilities... In fact you can probably get away with the Stamina DK setup on PTS with just about any Class..including Sorc.

Just because stamina itself is strong, doesn't mean stamina sorcs are in a good place. Anyone can run a generic stamina build using just weapon, alliance war, and fighters guild skills. This is irrelevant. I don't want to play a generic stamina build. I want to play a stamina sorc.

Currently there is very little "sorc" in the stamina sorc. Stamina NBs have a very unique feel. So do templars with biting jabs. Despite all the pettyfogging from Stam DKs, I used tons of DK skills on my stam DK, igneous, unstable flame, petrify, dragon scale, dragon leap, corrosive armor, and the DK armor skill. All of these bring class character to their respective stamina builds.

I use about TWO sorcerer skills on a stamina sorc: Boundless Storm, and streak. Everything else is needed for weapon skills and healing. Crit surge is a magicka hog and doesn't always work in PvP. Bound armaments takes up too many skill slots for what it does. Meteor/Dawnbreaker will be better than any other sorc ultimate for stamina.

All I want is more class character for stamina sorc. I don't mind working with the skills we have if necessary, but they need a tune up to work with stamina.

Brrrofski

It needs a few things.

But honestly, i'd be happy with just a spammable class skill. That alone would make a huge amount of difference. Make crystal blast a poison punch or something, 5m range, uses stam, scales off mighty.

That alone would be a start.

Ajax_22

ArgoCye wrote: »

I guess the longer you say something, it starts to get believed ... but stamsorcs are far from garbage and not the worst stam class (whatever that means). I am not saying they are on par with stamblades or that they have the defensive capabilities of stamDKs, but they're not garbage.

Sorcs have one of the best skills in the game - Crit Surge. They also have great mobility, a good stun, a third ability bar and as good, if not better, passives that Templars. Unholy Knowledge reduces stam costs by 5%, Power Stone - huge reduction in ulti costs (nice if you werewolf), Daedric Protection - health and stam recovery +20% (use Bound Armaments and you have that plus 5% more stam plus 11% more heavy attack damage plus 2% weapon damage - worth it even if it means using two slots), Expert Mage - 2% inc to weapon damage for each sorc ability slotted.

I like the Hurricane change. It will increase DPS, but I do think they should change the Disintegrate passive to include physical damage (tho that might be super potent, but they could adjust the proc percentage). Having Unstable Clanfear's damage stamina-based (it's already physical) would make things interesting and make a couple of those DS passives useful. Those two changes alone would do a lot.

I also think stam sorcs will benefit from the changes to dual wield (flurry), though I haven't seen any tests on this yet.

Crit Surge is one of the worst heals in the game for PvP. DoTs can't proc it so Flurry is out of the question as your main DPS ability. You're also not getting healed from Caltrops, or half of the bow skill line. Any good PvPer is running 7 Impenetrable, which makes your crits weaker than your non crits. Shields also can't be crit so Magic Sorcs, who just got a shield buff this patch, hard counter Crit Surge. To top it all off ZOS has given everyone the ability to run a good shield that scales of magic or stam. Stam Sorcs have some good passives, I agree that they are about on par with Templar passives, but there is a lot in there that could be updated to benefit both magic and stam. Bound Armament isn't worth two slots on your bar. If it gets updated to work like Mage Light and Expert Hunter then it may be worth a slot on your front bar. Thundering Presence was never slotted for damage it's all about the Major Expedition buff. In fact most Stam Sorcs still use the magic morph in PvP. Add Major Expedition for the full duration of Hurricane, and it's now a good update. Both pets should just scale off of what ever is higher, we know it's possible since they just did it with Burning Light this patch. However Sorc pets are another problem with the class a whole. Neither one of those pets are worth two slots on your bar. If they changed them to be a castable "buff" that lasted 30+ seconds it would drastically increase the viability of our pets.

Also Stam Sorcs are currently the weakest class in PvP. If you take two players of the same skill level, running the same gear for stam or equivalent gear for magic the Stam Sorc will lose.