Xp reduction when having lots of champion points

Moozzie

As quoted from the patch notes:

Experience gain rules will continue to function as they did for Veteran Ranks:

Mobs 40 Champion Points below your level will grant 75% of their normal XP.
Mobs 50 or more Champion Points below your level will grant 30% of their normal XP.

This rule feels a bit weird. Let's say I have 300 champion points and with a fresh alt just dinged level 50 I want to do the goodwill silver, those mobs will be CP10. Does that mean that I hardly get xp from those quests?

That feels stupid and does not stimulate me to do any quests that do not scale. I suggest that this rule gets dropped..

Samadhi

People asked for Veteran Ranks to be removed in order to make the game more sandboxy.

ZOS managed to remove the Veteran Ranks, and still not turn Gold and SIlver into open content?

Nestor

Moozzie wrote: »

Does that mean that I hardly get xp from those quests?

Based on how it works now (with mob scaling having an impact on Exp received) quests still offer Vet Rank exp, even if they are leveling quests, when you complete them. You just will get little exp (30%) for any mobs that are more than 50 CPs below you, and none that are L49 or below.

It seems that under the new scheme, if you want to grind mobs for experience, its going to be a long slow process if you have more than 210 CPs.

NewBlacksmurf

Samadhi wrote: »

People asked for Veteran Ranks to be removed in order to make the game more sandboxy.

ZOS managed to remove the Veteran Ranks, and still not turn Gold and SIlver into open content?

Naah. Ppl asked to remove VR levels and the problems VR level and content created. No one asked to slap CP over VR
They didn't even remove VR.
They removed alt limits and slapped CP over VR. It's a big hot mess but worse. I get that they have challenges in how to do it but then wouldn't have made more sense to just promote all to VR(highest on account) and allow VR progress to be account based. That is basically what they've done but by removing VR it complicates what I just explained simply.

Imagine doing a random scaled to CP160.
-so how do you scale CP without removing or giving temp CP points?

What determines gear requirements for non CP environments
What determines NPC difficulty as Cp doesn't do anything directly like VR if only offers some passive options that diminish


If ur going to do this then CP has to grow increments rather that go up
Less and less as you gain points.
But then you still have to address the skill lines that cap at 50
And address the cp cap which now makes no sense other than PvP and leaderboards which can simply be CP ranges for leaderboards and campaigns. And dungeons.

It just complicates something that should have become simplified and clear
How does an alt do silver and gold if the main is v16 and the alt was vr1 but now the whole vr1-14 is too low.
All of this was done wrong IMO.

Sorry but I'm on a rant this week on this

Nestor

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

How does an alt do silver and gold if the main is v16 and the alt was vr1 but now the whole vr1-14 is too low.

That brings up a good point. I am currently leveling a chracter, who is at L46. When he reaches VR1, or the Champ Rank, he will have 501 CPs as that is what my account has. However, he will be earning points on mobs at a rate that is 30% of normal for every single mob he has combat with but he has never seen these mobs before as this is supposed to be new content for this character.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch

Mobs give less XP. Quests give you base XP regardless of the amount of CP you have. So yes grinding will be a slow road to getting CP verse questing.

NewBlacksmurf

Nestor wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

How does an alt do silver and gold if the main is v16 and the alt was vr1 but now the whole vr1-14 is too low.

That brings up a good point. I am currently leveling a chracter, who is at L46. When he reaches VR1, or the Champ Rank, he will have 501 CPs as that is what my account has. However, he will be earning points on mobs at a rate that is 30% of normal for every single mob he has combat with but he has never seen these mobs before as this is supposed to be new content for this character.

Nestor
Lots of respect for you a sa community ambassador.
This whole VR removal thing.....I'm telling you had got me sooooo heated.
I've seen so much feedback from closed beta to now on this. Literally no good idea in community terms, not mines was even considered.

I'm about to be done at DB release. They just destroyed any and all progress to bring ppl together and have post 50 progress seemless but giving progression and difficulty slider options.
Dungeon finder resolve, trial and delve resolves, crafting relief, PvP attempts towards balance and non CP environments and scaled content.

All of that is touched and now forever possibly more broken than prior efforts to fix as results of VR.

Nestor

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I'm about to be done at DB release. They just destroyed any and all progress to bring ppl together and have post 50 progress seemless but giving progression and difficulty slider options.
Dungeon finder resolve, trial and delve resolves, crafting relief, PvP attempts towards balance and non CP environments and scaled content.

All of that is touched and now forever possibly more broken than prior efforts to fix as results of VR.

Hopefully, they are going to look at the feedback this time around and make some adjustments. ZOS has shown more willingness to listen and incorporate lately. A lot of the changes in DB are good and do meet the community needs. Just a few things need to be looked at (Enchanting changes and how we earn CPs on newly minted Champ Rank characters are two that I can think of) The rest of the PvP concerns I will leave to the PvP'ers to talk about.

Svalinn

I will be "blunt" about all of this... If in ESO levels were COMPLETELY removed from the game... meaning no lvl gains, all characters with max stat points, no lvl 50 or cp501.. really.. NO LEVELS AT ALL... and instead of having a "lvl and stat progression" game we had a "skill based progression" game... (meaning that instead of leveling you just lvl up your skills), and ALL areas of the game were scaled at the very same exact "level"... the game would probably be even more enjoyable then it is now because:

- the game is quest based and not grind based.. so quests would be enjoyable no matter the level.. and i think the DLC areas were everyone scale to vet16 prove this point enough.

- the people wants mainly PVP and GROUP CONTENT stuff... that would anyway be scaled to vet 16 even as the game is now... thus having people lvl 15 doing dungeons at vet 16 mode.

- role players would enjoy the game a lot more because they would have the whole "leveling up" process taken away from them

- there would be absolutly NO MESS with CP points and quest and areas scaling as we are probably going to have now

- progression would be different but would be there nevertheless.. just skills instead of "stats"

- having alts would be much more enjoyable because we could just concentrate on a different gameplay style instead of redoing all quests all over again every single time we actually make an alt...

I'm kind of sure if i want to i could go on for hours listing the benefits of removing the level system alltogheter from a game like this :P

Maotti

Full XP always in Cyrodiil and DLC zones. For your convinience...

It's like Zos doesn't want the veteran zones to matter at all.

ADarklore

Maotti_Nor wrote: »

Full XP always in Cyrodiil and DLC zones. For your convinience...

It's like Zos doesn't want the veteran zones to matter at all.

I think what they should do, because of the significantly reduced XP rate for mobs because of high CP, is increase the quest XP rewards to compensate... make questing WORTH the time investment versus grinding.

Maotti

ADarklore wrote: »

Maotti_Nor wrote: »

Full XP always in Cyrodiil and DLC zones. For your convinience...

It's like Zos doesn't want the veteran zones to matter at all.

I think what they should do, because of the significantly reduced XP rate for mobs because of high CP, is increase the quest XP rewards to compensate... make questing WORTH the time investment versus grinding.

They won't do that. Redoing the other zones is too much work for no money in return. All focus is now on DLC's because that can be monetized. I totally agree with you though.

But the reduced XP won't really matter anymore since the huge grind of VR is gone. But still, i'm probably one of the few guys who actually like to go to old zones for grinding anchors, delves bosses and collecting mats. Etc.

redspecter23

I'm not quite understanding why they couldn't just make all vet mobs give a standard amount of xp and not care about what their CP rank is compared to a player's rank. Silver mobs are not that much easier than Gold mobs. Standard xp from each mob would create a more sandbox type feel, while keeping things simpler and remove the automatic 60% xp reduction that every toon with over 200 CP will get from every single mob they fight. Standardized xp would also open up Craglorn as an actual worthwhile zone as well.

I feel really bad for players in the 200 - 300 CP range once this update goes live. If the intention is to allow lower cp players to catch up then it's probably a horrible idea to slap them with a 66% xp penalty for everything they do. Those with 500+ are sitting pretty as they won't have that obstacle to overcome.

Moozzie

redspecter23 wrote: »

I'm not quite understanding why they couldn't just make all vet mobs give a standard amount of xp and not care about what their CP rank is compared to a player's rank. Silver mobs are not that much easier than Gold mobs. Standard xp from each mob would create a more sandbox type feel, while keeping things simpler and remove the automatic 60% xp reduction that every toon with over 200 CP will get from every single mob they fight. Standardized xp would also open up Craglorn as an actual worthwhile zone as well.

I feel really bad for players in the 200 - 300 CP range once this update goes live. If the intention is to allow lower cp players to catch up then it's probably a horrible idea to slap them with a 66% xp penalty for everything they do. Those with 500+ are sitting pretty as they won't have that obstacle to overcome.

ZOS should should spent some time reading your post.

Moozzie

What ritual do we have to perform to summon an ZOS employee?

Elephant42

The silver/gold situation levelling is a mess at the moment.

One suggestion that pops into my head is for all level/gear/XP calculations to be based on the number of CP points that the character _activates_, rather than how many the account has.

A character could only wear CP160 gear if it had 160 or more CP allocated.

This would give players very good control over their challenge level. You want an alt to race through quests as fast as possible then allocate all your CP and wear CP160 gear. You want a real challenge then allocate no CP and wear L50 gear. There are countless variations in between these two extremes.

To summarise: Keep CP account wide but base all relative difficulty and level gates off the allocated CP rather than the account CP.

P.S. I didn't read the whole thread so if this idea has been posted by someone else earlier then apologies and have an Awesome on me.

Elephant42

Maotti_Nor wrote: »

But the reduced XP won't really matter anymore since the huge grind of VR is gone. But still, i'm probably one of the few guys who actually like to go to old zones for grinding anchors, delves bosses and collecting mats. Etc.

Erm it _will_ matter to people like me who use levelling alts as the primary means of gaining more CP, I _hate_ grinding with a passion...

ADarklore

Elephant42 wrote: »

Erm it _will_ matter to people like me who use levelling alts as the primary means of gaining more CP, I _hate_ grinding with a passion...

But you do realize that once your CP is at a certain level, the rate will decrease... it isn't about your character level, it is about your CP level. The closer your overall account CP is to cap, the slower and slower CPs are acquired. So unless you're talking about maintaining 'enlightened' alts, then that is a bit different, as each character maintains its own enlightenment.

Reorx_Holybeard

Moozzie wrote: »

As quoted from the patch notes:

Experience gain rules will continue to function as they did for Veteran Ranks:

Mobs 40 Champion Points below your level will grant 75% of their normal XP.
Mobs 50 or more Champion Points below your level will grant 30% of their normal XP.

This rule feels a bit weird. Let's say I have 300 champion points and with a fresh alt just dinged level 50 I want to do the goodwill silver, those mobs will be CP10. Does that mean that I hardly get xp from those quests?

That feels stupid and does not stimulate me to do any quests that do not scale. I suggest that this rule gets dropped..

I think its just worded a bit strangely that invites confusion. Your "level" is now your normal level 1-50 in addition to your CP up to a cap of 160. If I have 300 CPs my "level" is still "level 50 CP160".

So a level 50 CP130 mob will get me full experience whether I have 160CPs or 501CPs since my "level" caps at 160 (currently). I've tested this on PTS and with +490 CP I'm getting the exact same experience for mobs in Wrothgar as my VR16 does on live.

Hopefully that clears thing up a little bit.

Elephant42

ADarklore wrote: »

Elephant42 wrote: »

Erm it _will_ matter to people like me who use levelling alts as the primary means of gaining more CP, I _hate_ grinding with a passion...

But you do realize that once your CP is at a certain level, the rate will decrease... it isn't about your character level, it is about your CP level. The closer your overall account CP is to cap, the slower and slower CPs are acquired. So unless you're talking about maintaining 'enlightened' alts, then that is a bit different, as each character maintains its own enlightenment.

I do realise that but it makes no difference to my post. XP is XP and anything that reduces the rate at which it is gained is not good. The CP catch up mechanism and enlightenment have nothing to do with the rate of XP gain, they govern how that XP gained is translated into CP.

NewBlacksmurf

Nestor wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I'm about to be done at DB release. They just destroyed any and all progress to bring ppl together and have post 50 progress seemless but giving progression and difficulty slider options.
Dungeon finder resolve, trial and delve resolves, crafting relief, PvP attempts towards balance and non CP environments and scaled content.

All of that is touched and now forever possibly more broken than prior efforts to fix as results of VR.

Hopefully, they are going to look at the feedback this time around and make some adjustments. ZOS has shown more willingness to listen and incorporate lately. A lot of the changes in DB are good and do meet the community needs. Just a few things need to be looked at (Enchanting changes and how we earn CPs on newly minted Champ Rank characters are two that I can think of) The rest of the PvP concerns I will leave to the PvP'ers to talk about.

The other BIGGIE is removing cp indicator on player character and NPCs and use 50 for players and 49-56 for NPCs.
If nothing else changes. That's a biggie

Cazic

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

Moozzie wrote: »

As quoted from the patch notes:

Experience gain rules will continue to function as they did for Veteran Ranks:

Mobs 40 Champion Points below your level will grant 75% of their normal XP.
Mobs 50 or more Champion Points below your level will grant 30% of their normal XP.

This rule feels a bit weird. Let's say I have 300 champion points and with a fresh alt just dinged level 50 I want to do the goodwill silver, those mobs will be CP10. Does that mean that I hardly get xp from those quests?

That feels stupid and does not stimulate me to do any quests that do not scale. I suggest that this rule gets dropped..

I think its just worded a bit strangely that invites confusion. Your "level" is now your normal level 1-50 in addition to your CP up to a cap of 160. If I have 300 CPs my "level" is still "level 50 CP160".

So a level 50 CP130 mob will get me full experience whether I have 160CPs or 501CPs since my "level" caps at 160 (currently). I've tested this on PTS and with +490 CP I'm getting the exact same experience for mobs in Wrothgar as my VR16 does on live.

Hopefully that clears thing up a little bit.

Yeah, agreed on this. Your "level" relative to mobs and gear can only be considered CP160 at the most. CP160 is equal to VR16. They may raise it to CP180 (aka VR!18), etc later.

A player with 160CP and another with 501CP have the same reduction in experience to lower leveled mobs.

Shadowfx1970

All I could think of was Southpark

Kyle: [trying to convice Cartman to give it up] Dude! Boars are only worth two experience points a piece. Do you know how many we would have to kill to get up 30 levels?
Eric Cartman: [pulls out a piece of paper] Yes. 65,340,285, which should take us 7 weeks, 5 days, 13 hours and 20 minutes, giving ourselves 3 hours a night to sleep. What do you say, guys? You can jus... you can just hang outside in the sun all day tossing a ball around. Or you can sit at your computer and do something that matters...

Annalyse

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

Moozzie wrote: »

As quoted from the patch notes:

Experience gain rules will continue to function as they did for Veteran Ranks:

Mobs 40 Champion Points below your level will grant 75% of their normal XP.
Mobs 50 or more Champion Points below your level will grant 30% of their normal XP.

This rule feels a bit weird. Let's say I have 300 champion points and with a fresh alt just dinged level 50 I want to do the goodwill silver, those mobs will be CP10. Does that mean that I hardly get xp from those quests?

That feels stupid and does not stimulate me to do any quests that do not scale. I suggest that this rule gets dropped..

I think its just worded a bit strangely that invites confusion. Your "level" is now your normal level 1-50 in addition to your CP up to a cap of 160. If I have 300 CPs my "level" is still "level 50 CP160".

So a level 50 CP130 mob will get me full experience whether I have 160CPs or 501CPs since my "level" caps at 160 (currently). I've tested this on PTS and with +490 CP I'm getting the exact same experience for mobs in Wrothgar as my VR16 does on live.

Hopefully that clears thing up a little bit.

But the point the OP was making was that Cadwell's Silver zone is not scaled like the DLC zones, so for a new alt at level 50 with already maxed CP, the mobs will be way underlevel (presuming they start at the level that a new player would start at, in the double digits of CPs).

I can see how it works fine for the DLC zones, but they really need to scale Cadwell's Silver and Gold zones as well so that we don't have this issue.

dimensional

Annalyse wrote: »

But the point the OP was making was that Cadwell's Silver zone is not scaled like the DLC zones, so for a new alt at level 50 with already maxed CP, the mobs will be way underlevel (presuming they start at the level that a new player would start at, in the double digits of CPs).

I can see how it works fine for the DLC zones, but they really need to scale Cadwell's Silver and Gold zones as well so that we don't have this issue.

Absolutely, I was just thinking about this yesterday as well. I hope they can get something done about it!

Katahdin

Yep seems like this whole thing is going to be a huge mess. All that time and effort changing it.
People are not going to be happy with this system. Its too confusing and the XP nerf as you get closer to the limit is going to just *** people off. Should have left it the way it is IMO.

comments in BOLD

Svalinn wrote: »

I will be "blunt" about all of this... If in ESO levels were COMPLETELY removed from the game... meaning no lvl gains, all characters with max stat points, no lvl 50 or cp501.. really.. NO LEVELS AT ALL... and instead of having a "lvl and stat progression" game we had a "skill based progression" game... (meaning that instead of leveling you just lvl up your skills), and ALL areas of the game were scaled at the very same exact "level"... the game would probably be even more enjoyable then it is now because:

- the game is quest based and not grind based.. so quests would be enjoyable no matter the level.. and i think the DLC areas were everyone scale to vet16 prove this point enough.

- the people wants mainly PVP and GROUP CONTENT stuff... that would anyway be scaled to vet 16 even as the game is now... thus having people lvl 15 doing dungeons at vet 16 mode.
No they dont. The demographics of this game and where people spend most of their time prove this to not be true. Some play PVP (I do myself) but it isnt the majority. Take a look at Craglorn, its a desert....so much for group content...

- role players would enjoy the game a lot more because they would have the whole "leveling up" process taken away from them You speak for all role players? Some do enjoy developing their character along the story

- there would be absolutly NO MESS with CP points and quest and areas scaling as we are probably going to have now

- progression would be different but would be there nevertheless.. just skills instead of "stats"
- There would be no sense of progression whatsoever and there would not be any classes, just homogenized characters all the same everywhere

- having alts would be much more enjoyable because we could just concentrate on a different gameplay style instead of redoing all quests all over again every single time we actually make an alt...
I enjoy playing my alts through the story and I enjoy the progression I get from leveling my characters

I'm kind of sure if i want to i could go on for hours listing the benefits of removing the level system alltogheter from a game like this :P
If this happened the game would have been dead months ago because everyone would be bored to death with nothing to do.

CaptainBeerDude

I like the account wide CP's. It means that now I finally have a v16, I can give in to my altitis and roll alts out of the proverbial. They will all be max level fairly quickly.
It also doesn't bother me too much about lower xp from grinding mobs under levelled. Skill points are more valuable until you run out of passives to buy and those are from quests and skyshards.

Slurg

Patch notes known issues on PTS:

Veteran Rank Removal

You will still be receiving the full XP amount when killing monsters 40 or more Champion Points below your level, rather than at a reduced rate. This is not intended, and will be fixed in a future patch.

Source: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2909375/#Comment_2909375

Don't assume because you get full XP gain on PTS now that you will on live. Test after they fix this.

redspecter23

Elephant42 wrote: »

The silver/gold situation levelling is a mess at the moment.

One suggestion that pops into my head is for all level/gear/XP calculations to be based on the number of CP points that the character _activates_, rather than how many the account has.

A character could only wear CP160 gear if it had 160 or more CP allocated.

This would give players very good control over their challenge level. You want an alt to race through quests as fast as possible then allocate all your CP and wear CP160 gear. You want a real challenge then allocate no CP and wear L50 gear. There are countless variations in between these two extremes.

To summarise: Keep CP account wide but base all relative difficulty and level gates off the allocated CP rather than the account CP.

P.S. I didn't read the whole thread so if this idea has been posted by someone else earlier then apologies and have an Awesome on me.

ZoS, give this suggestion a hefty amount of thought as the implications go even deeper than suggested.

The ability to scale our own power level and our effective level along with it allow us to play in the vet zones we want, with full xp.

This allows us to customize our gear options with lower level vet gear which in the current pts situation would go completely obsolete along with all v1 - v14 crafting mats. Allowing us to effectively customize a toon at exactly v5 breathes life back into that gear and those crafting mats.

Allowing players to allocate exactly 0 CP might even be an effective way to "delevel" and allow us to stay in Blackwater Blade longer and possibly be a restriction needed for Azura's Star participation.

There are likely more sandbox type applications I'm not touching on but please give this suggestion some serious thought as an alternative to what is currently on pts.

nudel

Really they just need to implement scaling in base game/ Silver/ Gold zones. Make it more of a sandbox. Get full xp no matter what you're doing as all areas would be on level.

People can get this already in dlcs and let me tell you it is a breath of fresh air being able to play on my main with a friend who's new to the game. This is vastly superior to having to delete and remake characters just so I can help acclimate friends to the game and then obsessively keep said new character within 5 levels of my friend so that we both get xp from whatever we're doing.

Apart from that, I like a lot of the older zones. I want to revisit them, but I have no reason to do so.

And...when I was still leveling via quests, I was constantly overleveled for zones because of doing all the quests. If scaling were implemented, I could do the quests in any order at my leisure and not be bored out of my mind, facerolling lvl 20 bosses as a lvl 30 because I wanted to complete the zone.

Elephant42

nudel wrote: »

Really they just need to implement scaling in base game/ Silver/ Gold zones. Make it more of a sandbox. Get full xp no matter what you're doing as all areas would be on level.

People can get this already in dlcs and let me tell you it is a breath of fresh air being able to play on my main with a friend who's new to the game. This is vastly superior to having to delete and remake characters just so I can help acclimate friends to the game and then obsessively keep said new character within 5 levels of my friend so that we both get xp from whatever we're doing.

Apart from that, I like a lot of the older zones. I want to revisit them, but I have no reason to do so.

And...when I was still leveling via quests, I was constantly overleveled for zones because of doing all the quests. If scaling were implemented, I could do the quests in any order at my leisure and not be bored out of my mind, facerolling lvl 20 bosses as a lvl 30 because I wanted to complete the zone.

Some of us (maybe even most of us) actually _like_ the levelling process. I would really hate for the main game to end up being scaled.

I too would like to be able to visit the old zones which are battle levelled as per the DLCs, but not at the expense of removing the non-vet levelling system.

We currently have 3 instances of each base zone, non-vet, silver and gold. What is wrong with adding a fourth instance - battle levelled. This would trigger as soon as a character finished the relevant Cadwell quest. I.e. once a char had completed Cadwells Silver then all the silver zones would be battle levelled for that char, and similarly for gold. A major downside to this however would be that you couldn't go and help your friends out in the zone if they were still on the quest. Maybe a solution to this would be to have the instance scaled to the group leader.

I think there is scope to improve quite a bit on what we currently have - and quite possibly ZOS do so intend to make improvements once they get the whole VR removal system bedded down.