Shields being crit proof...

Serenityx

Can someone please explain to me why shields are resistant to critical damage in PvP? It seems like anytime I get a player under 45ish% health, all the have to do is pop a shield up and then heal. Then use more shields.

FriedEggSandwich

Serenityx wrote: »

Can someone please explain to me why shields are resistant to critical damage in PvP? It seems like anytime I get a player under 45ish% health, all the have to do is pop a shield up and then heal. Then use more shields.

I guess because they don't crit. A sorcs hardened ward will have the same value every time they cast it, assuming their stats remain the same. It's never been possible to crit a shield, so it's fair to assume their current values are balanced around no crits. Crittable shields would be a nerf to shield stacking, but it would also nerf single shields for those players who just want to use one. Buffing single shields to cope with crits would also buff shield stacking. Easiest solution would be to remove shield stacking and then either buff single shields to cope with crits, or leave them as they are and crits wouldn't even be necessary. By that I mean; base damage has reached a point where hardened ward can be one-shot by certain builds. Hardened Ward + Harness Magicka + Healing Ward can't be one-shot by any build.

Wreuntzylla

ZoS said it's just a design choice for variety and the overall scheme of balance.

Baconlad

Yeah, sorc shield stacks can be busted by one or sometimes two dark flares. What's great is most mag sorcs don't dodge roll or block either so the extra damage from the second flare hits their health, at that point all it take is a charge, jabs and maybe an ult depending on their speed of break free. Sorc are sooooooo easy for a mag temp, they should be scared of me. Unless their smart and running the interupt morph of the spam my destro ability...cant remember the name of that *** for the life of me...but yeah sweet thing about shields is they can't be crit on but they do NOT have any mitigation, so they are really easy to pop

Astanphaeus

In addition to not being critable, they have do not have spell or physical resistance. This seems like a fair balance to me.

Laggus

Too many Sorcs rolling with 20k shields these days. Anyone that invested in crit damage is negated on any shield.

Force-Siphon

Laggus wrote: »

Too many Sorcs rolling with 20k shields these days. Anyone that invested in crit damage is negated on any shield.

You snipe through shields all the time, sorry if we are paying attention we aren't free AP....like a stam build running shuffle and dodge rolling or a dk with wings....

We have no other counter to your play style unless we LOS

Omgwtfbbq321

Laggus wrote: »

Too many Sorcs rolling with 20k shields these days. Anyone that invested in crit damage is negated on any shield.

With 52k Mgaicka, my Hardend ward was still under 15k in Cyrodiil. To achieve those numbers I had to run:
- 7 pieces of infused, max magicka, Kuta enchants.
- Have High Elf race passives.
- Have the War horn ultimate active.
- Inner light and Bound Aegis active.
- Max magicka green v15 food.
- 64 points into magcika through attributes.
- 3 piece WillPower
- 5 piece Kags
- 4 piece Litch.

Now I know I could get slightly more Magicka form different sets, and I don't actually run this setup in PVP as its useless having next to no health or stamina.

The point being, this uneducated belief that sorcs have 20k + shields in Cyrodiil is ridiculous.

Sure, stacked, you might manage that. But keep in mind, (Until DB is out) Annulment only covers magic damage, and healing ward is only up for a a brief few seconds.

I wish they had made shields un-stackbale.

leepalmer95

Omgwtfbbq321 wrote: »

Laggus wrote: »

Too many Sorcs rolling with 20k shields these days. Anyone that invested in crit damage is negated on any shield.

With 52k Mgaicka, my Hardend ward was still under 15k in Cyrodiil. To achieve those numbers I had to run:
- 7 pieces of infused, max magicka, Kuta enchants.
- Have High Elf race passives.
- Have the War horn ultimate active.
- Inner light and Bound Aegis active.
- Max magicka green v15 food.
- 64 points into magcika through attributes.
- 3 piece WillPower
- 5 piece Kags
- 4 piece Litch.

Now I know I could get slightly more Magicka form different sets, and I don't actually run this setup in PVP as its useless having next to no health or stamina.

The point being, this uneducated belief that sorcs have 20k + shields in Cyrodiil is ridiculous.

Sure, stacked, you might manage that. But keep in mind, (Until DB is out) Annulment only covers magic damage, and healing ward is only up for a a brief few seconds.

I wish they had made shields un-stackbale.

The problem is the stacking, you no how annoying it is to attempt to get through 25k-30k shields before even touching a sorc hp? The hardened + harness needs to stop. Also shields need to be critable.

Lord-Otto

Well, Lee, you know how annoying it is to go through 15k resistance (25% damage reduction) just to see a single breath of life crit and heal you up to full 25k hp? Or Momentum and Vigor constantly healing you, without even having to switch bar every time you take a hit?
Any well-geared player takes down a Hardened Ward in one hit, same with Annulment. Because no resistance bonus. And for that, a shielder usually has to switch bars and pray healing Ward doesn't fly off into the sunset. You can make shields crittable, but then I want them to crit as well, for that 50% more shield points, and I want them to have active armor and spell resist.

Tankqull

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Omgwtfbbq321 wrote: »

Laggus wrote: »

Too many Sorcs rolling with 20k shields these days. Anyone that invested in crit damage is negated on any shield.

With 52k Mgaicka, my Hardend ward was still under 15k in Cyrodiil. To achieve those numbers I had to run:
- 7 pieces of infused, max magicka, Kuta enchants.
- Have High Elf race passives.
- Have the War horn ultimate active.
- Inner light and Bound Aegis active.
- Max magicka green v15 food.
- 64 points into magcika through attributes.
- 3 piece WillPower
- 5 piece Kags
- 4 piece Litch.

Now I know I could get slightly more Magicka form different sets, and I don't actually run this setup in PVP as its useless having next to no health or stamina.

The point being, this uneducated belief that sorcs have 20k + shields in Cyrodiil is ridiculous.

Sure, stacked, you might manage that. But keep in mind, (Until DB is out) Annulment only covers magic damage, and healing ward is only up for a a brief few seconds.

I wish they had made shields un-stackbale.

The problem is the stacking, you no how annoying it is to attempt to get through 25k-30k shields before even touching a sorc hp? The hardened + harness needs to stop. Also shields need to be critable.

the stacking only matters for magica builds - and not because of the stacking itself but the resourcepool insanity anulment created in combination with their formerly long duration. with 6sec duration and the magica refill significantly hampered by anulment shield stacking will be completly useless.

if shields need to be critable, so must be blocking, and critical hits ignore dodging aswell...

leepalmer95

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Well, Lee, you know how annoying it is to go through 15k resistance (25% damage reduction) just to see a single breath of life crit and heal you up to full 25k hp? Or Momentum and Vigor constantly healing you, without even having to switch bar every time you take a hit?
Any well-geared player takes down a Hardened Ward in one hit, same with Annulment. Because no resistance bonus. And for that, a shielder usually has to switch bars and pray healing Ward doesn't fly off into the sunset. You can make shields crittable, but then I want them to crit as well, for that 50% more shield points, and I want them to have active armor and spell resist.

Well no because i have penetration so 15k armour becomes so little it's nearly useless ^^, also i can heal debuff templars i can't shield debuff sorc. I can crit templar i can't crit sorc. Luckly for the game what you want and what zos do are going to be different.

Tankqull wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Omgwtfbbq321 wrote: »

Laggus wrote: »

Too many Sorcs rolling with 20k shields these days. Anyone that invested in crit damage is negated on any shield.

With 52k Mgaicka, my Hardend ward was still under 15k in Cyrodiil. To achieve those numbers I had to run:
- 7 pieces of infused, max magicka, Kuta enchants.
- Have High Elf race passives.
- Have the War horn ultimate active.
- Inner light and Bound Aegis active.
- Max magicka green v15 food.
- 64 points into magcika through attributes.
- 3 piece WillPower
- 5 piece Kags
- 4 piece Litch.

Now I know I could get slightly more Magicka form different sets, and I don't actually run this setup in PVP as its useless having next to no health or stamina.

The point being, this uneducated belief that sorcs have 20k + shields in Cyrodiil is ridiculous.

Sure, stacked, you might manage that. But keep in mind, (Until DB is out) Annulment only covers magic damage, and healing ward is only up for a a brief few seconds.

I wish they had made shields un-stackbale.

The problem is the stacking, you no how annoying it is to attempt to get through 25k-30k shields before even touching a sorc hp? The hardened + harness needs to stop. Also shields need to be critable.

the stacking only matters for magica builds - and not because of the stacking itself but the resourcepool insanity anulment created in combination with their formerly long duration. with 6sec duration and the magica refill significantly hampered by anulment shield stacking will be completly useless.

if shields need to be critable, so must be blocking, and critical hits ignore dodging aswell...

I only had a problem with magicka builds, stamina dmg was fine vs sorc, it's a bit annoying when they got a healing ward + stacked hardened when there in execute range.. but it's a lot better than being magicka.

With this new change the only sorc actually stacking sorc will be ignored because they'll spend most of their time stacking shields and i'll treat them like those 'super - tanks' who have no dps and are just there. Leave them until after i kill people that can actually do dmg.

Serenityx

The way it is now, a player has to run an entire set just to make a build viable against not crittable shields. I don't think nerfing the duration is the right way to go. It's not going to be enough unless they make duration so low that shields are literally a useless skill. The reduced duration also somewhat unfair to PvErs, who are going to suffer because of shield stacking scum in cyrodil. Making shields crittable is the only viable way to make magic sorcs a balanced class in PvP. PvE would be unaffected because monsters don't crit anyways....

Tankqull

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Well, Lee, you know how annoying it is to go through 15k resistance (25% damage reduction) just to see a single breath of life crit and heal you up to full 25k hp? Or Momentum and Vigor constantly healing you, without even having to switch bar every time you take a hit?
Any well-geared player takes down a Hardened Ward in one hit, same with Annulment. Because no resistance bonus. And for that, a shielder usually has to switch bars and pray healing Ward doesn't fly off into the sunset. You can make shields crittable, but then I want them to crit as well, for that 50% more shield points, and I want them to have active armor and spell resist.

Well no because i have penetration so 15k armour becomes so little it's nearly useless ^^, also i can heal debuff templars i can't shield debuff sorc. I can crit templar i can't crit sorc. Luckly for the game what you want and what zos do are going to be different.

Tankqull wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Omgwtfbbq321 wrote: »

Laggus wrote: »

Too many Sorcs rolling with 20k shields these days. Anyone that invested in crit damage is negated on any shield.

With 52k Mgaicka, my Hardend ward was still under 15k in Cyrodiil. To achieve those numbers I had to run:
- 7 pieces of infused, max magicka, Kuta enchants.
- Have High Elf race passives.
- Have the War horn ultimate active.
- Inner light and Bound Aegis active.
- Max magicka green v15 food.
- 64 points into magcika through attributes.
- 3 piece WillPower
- 5 piece Kags
- 4 piece Litch.

Now I know I could get slightly more Magicka form different sets, and I don't actually run this setup in PVP as its useless having next to no health or stamina.

The point being, this uneducated belief that sorcs have 20k + shields in Cyrodiil is ridiculous.

Sure, stacked, you might manage that. But keep in mind, (Until DB is out) Annulment only covers magic damage, and healing ward is only up for a a brief few seconds.

I wish they had made shields un-stackbale.

The problem is the stacking, you no how annoying it is to attempt to get through 25k-30k shields before even touching a sorc hp? The hardened + harness needs to stop. Also shields need to be critable.

the stacking only matters for magica builds - and not because of the stacking itself but the resourcepool insanity anulment created in combination with their formerly long duration. with 6sec duration and the magica refill significantly hampered by anulment shield stacking will be completly useless.

if shields need to be critable, so must be blocking, and critical hits ignore dodging aswell...

I only had a problem with magicka builds, stamina dmg was fine vs sorc, it's a bit annoying when they got a healing ward + stacked hardened when there in execute range.. but it's a lot better than being magicka.

With this new change the only sorc actually stacking sorc will be ignored because they'll spend most of their time stacking shields and i'll treat them like those 'super - tanks' who have no dps and are just there. Leave them until after i kill people that can actually do dmg.

stacking sorcs will be alot easier to kill than now as they combine a "weaker" shield with a good one without protecting the weaker shield by being vulnurable to only one dmg source...
so they are forced to waist even more of their time refreshing shields(as the weaker shield does not cover an entire dmg round) not being granted the full magica refill(as it now effects physical attacks as well but does not grant magca upon them) draining their magica even faster than before without any worthwhile gain from it...

from my perspective the only sorcs remaining a threat are those who can handle their enemies now with only one shield...

timidobserver

It makes sense logically if you think about it. I view critical damage like a head shot, a pressure point strike, or any strike to something that is vulnerable. Shields do not have vulnerable spots.

Lord-Otto

Nah, they already had significantly weaker shields pre-1.6, and it was a serious detriment to the sorc class.
I can also crit Templars, I can also disease their healing and can nirnhone their spell resist. And yet, one weave of their hand is usually enough to get back to full health. That's 25k. People are bashing on shields, but the truth is, a sorc's shields are a 9k shield + a magical 7k shield + a very unreliable 12k shield. These shields have to be casted actively, while something like 8k WBs/Surprise Attacks with a weaved 3k medium attack hit you every second. Frankly, if you don't LoS, you WILL succumb. And arguably, Nightblades get more advantage from LoS'ing, whereas Temps get similar.

Waffennacht

Too bad nirnhoned will no longer provide resist, and that defense trait will no longer be a percentage.

Passive resist for sorcs takes a dive unfortunately.

leepalmer95

Waffennacht wrote: »

Too bad nirnhoned will no longer provide resist, and that defense trait will no longer be a percentage.

Passive resist for sorcs takes a dive unfortunately.

Pretty sure the defending because a set amount will be a boost for a sorc.

defending = 5.8k gold v16.

Before it was only 10%, 10% low armour won't change much.

Anyway this is my view of shields http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/262427/how-to-balance-shields#latest

Lord-Otto

@leepalmer95
Yo, man, can you give me a detailed explanation on what the issue with shields is?
I seem to be missing something. I realize a sorc rotating through all three shields is hard to kill... But honestly, a temp going full heal is hard to kill. A DK with reflects and selfheals up is hard to kill. A NB cloaking away and siphoning/vigoring is hard to kill. If someone wants to defend, he will defend. What separates sorcs from the flock?

Serenityx

Lord-Otto wrote: »

@leepalmer95
Yo, man, can you give me a detailed explanation on what the issue with shields is?
I seem to be missing something. I realize a sorc rotating through all three shields is hard to kill... But honestly, a temp going full heal is hard to kill. A DK with reflects and selfheals up is hard to kill. A NB cloaking away and siphoning/vigoring is hard to kill. If someone wants to defend, he will defend. What separates sorcs from the flock?

Sorcs can click and forget their shields and cast DPS spells with shields up, and at a very low resource cost. You can also heal with shields up, other classes don't have this ability. Cloak lasts 2.5 seconds. Seriously... If you play a magicka sorc, and have played any of the other classes you mentioned, you know the difference. If you haven't played any other class, it would still surprise me that you don't see the current problem with shields.

leepalmer95

Lord-Otto wrote: »

@leepalmer95
Yo, man, can you give me a detailed explanation on what the issue with shields is?
I seem to be missing something. I realize a sorc rotating through all three shields is hard to kill... But honestly, a temp going full heal is hard to kill. A DK with reflects and selfheals up is hard to kill. A NB cloaking away and siphoning/vigoring is hard to kill. If someone wants to defend, he will defend. What separates sorcs from the flock?

Sorc cannot be crit.

A dk can flap wings, dragon blood is bad.
A templar can heal.
A nb can cloak sure.

I can crit all of them. I can use melee/challened/curse vs a dk.
A can heal debuff a templar
I can reveal/aoe nb's

I can't 'shield debuff a sorc stacking'

The fact that shields can't be crit literally makes some passives/play styles/races quite useless in pvp.

Anything with crit dmg boost such as templar/nb passive, nb crit chance passive is useless, khajitt passives are basically useless vs shields, skills such as power surge/crit surge that work off crits are made useless.

Crit is a very large part of peoples dmg, hence why most pvpers use all of a lot of impen in order to reduce this dmg. Sorc don't have to worry about that as that are immune...

Hence why sorc can stack dmg + survivability with 1 stat, be immune to crits and have hp bars bigger than their hp. If you don't completely kill a sorc and instead get them low, a ward then shield stacking makes it so they will not die.

In this patch a magicka user trying to kill a sorc is stupid, try killing them on a mag dk.

Wreuntzylla

Force-Siphon wrote: »

Laggus wrote: »

Too many Sorcs rolling with 20k shields these days. Anyone that invested in crit damage is negated on any shield.

You snipe through shields all the time, sorry if we are paying attention we aren't free AP....like a stam build running shuffle and dodge rolling or a dk with wings....

We have no other counter to your play style unless we LOS

True, sorcs can't use defensive stance, retro staff, or stack health over 10k...

The entitlement is stronk with this one.

Caza99

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Force-Siphon wrote: »

Laggus wrote: »

Too many Sorcs rolling with 20k shields these days. Anyone that invested in crit damage is negated on any shield.

You snipe through shields all the time, sorry if we are paying attention we aren't free AP....like a stam build running shuffle and dodge rolling or a dk with wings....

We have no other counter to your play style unless we LOS

True, sorcs can't use defensive stance, retro staff, or stack health over 10k...

The entitlement is stronk with this one.

Shots fired.

Omgwtfbbq321

Can we just skip all "Attempted fixes" and just have this:

• Shields can now be crit, just like anything else.
• Shields get a buff in size to make up for them having 0 resistance. (Obviously would need to be tested and balanced).
• Shields follow the Major/Minor system and cannot be stacked. (Casting new ward over an existing would just replace it.
• Leave Annulment as it was, only covering magic damage.
• Sheogorath hosts a party to celebrate these changes, Cheese for everyone!

I don't like the idea of choosing one shield and knowing I'm going to fight other sorcs with 3.

dRudE

If you want shields crit able then impenetrable trait needs to be completely removed too, it's only fair.


Sorcs are the odd one out in the class arrangement, some people like being different.

leepalmer95

dRudE wrote: »

If you want shields crit able then impenetrable trait needs to be completely removed too, it's only fair.


Sorcs are the odd one out in the class arrangement, some people like being different.

Why would impen being removed help sorc in any way if shields are crit able?

Serenityx

timidobserver wrote: »

It makes sense logically if you think about it. I view critical damage like a head shot, a pressure point strike, or any strike to something that is vulnerable. Shields do not have vulnerable spots.

I actually sort of agree with this..Ive just come back from a year long break. I havent checked forums to see if shield stacking is still a common complaint (as common as it was when this post was made). However sorcs do seem to be a tad more vulnerable in cyrodil. Seems like they cant afford to just stand around perm casting shields while at ease (out of combat) anymore. The whole sorc class when played right is still a 1vXing monster though.

Also, dont mean to necro-bump here. Just going through old posts

Beardimus

It was a necro, but good that you can see what many can not. A year ago wards lastly 20seconds. You could precast them for safety. They needed them

Then the magika resource cost increase last year, made triple stacking harder....

Fast forward to Morrison's,EVERYONE is moaning about cost increases, even those with passive defence sat in their heavy armour and no Sorc doing any kind of big damage can sit turtled up beyond Triple wards for long.

Problem is with all this Sorc shining, is Noobs hit PvP and e counter Wards for the first time so come cry. And there are enough noobs to always populate the whine threads.

ak_pvp

Shields themselves can't crit, and have no resists.

The problem is only bad when people stack 30k of it.

Biro123

You don't get 30k of shields unless its a triple-stack with healing ward while you're very low health.

Scyantific

Want crittable shields? Give em crit resistance and Spell/Armor Resistance values.