Why do the devs listen to PVP QQ minorities?

hydrocynus

It seems the few people on the forum who moan the most get their way and then when the changes are developed no one uses them

1) let's have a campaign where sewers is locked unless you own your home keeps
2) let's have a campaign where CP are ignored

Now it seems after them going through the effort of humouring those guys, the actual eso pvp community voted where it counts to move to Truflame and those special campaigns are dead.

It seems in their effort to keep the minority forumers happy they have wasted time that they could have used to do much cooler stuff for us or fix other stuff that needs fixing.

Now we have forum posts with people trying to say how cool it is on Azura star in the hope to get more people to come join them there which obviously shows how under populated it is.

Asmael

You mean, like that one moment where there was ONE thread complaining about how Meteor was reflectable?

phairdon

Who knows. Maybe players decided they do not want to be on an even playing field (no cp), if we can call it an even playing field.
Reality is, players dislike dying, especially to what they may consider less skillful players (noobs)/lower levels. So any advantage or perceived advantage is going to be used. This is the impression I'm getting from watching different twitch streams.

hydrocynus

I am talking about big game features not skills that were either bugged or op.

Svalinn

Well as far as PvP goes.. i hate open world PvP in almost every game so i usually play very little of it... i will talk about PvP when we get an arena for 1 vs 1 or team matches xD (expecially since beeing in a smaller place and with less people it will probably not suffer at all from lag etc..)

hydrocynus

phairdon wrote: »

Who knows. Maybe players decided they do not want to be on an even playing field (no cp), if we can call it an even playing field.
Reality is, players dislike dying, especially to what they may consider less skillful players (noobs)/lower levels. So any advantage or perceived advantage is going to be used. This is the impression I'm getting from watching different twitch streams.

All I am saying is when they develop these things no one ends up using them because the opinions on the forum do not seem to accurately reflect that of the actual gaming population who remain on the campaigns using all the features

FENGRUSH

Housing and barber shop are coming buddy - they arent really big PVP features. Every DLC minus one has been full blown PVE .. and the one PVP one had more PVE content than PVP.

Reality is - youre delusional. This game is focused on PVE. Changes are made on balance from PVP community because they understand skills and report broken skills / complain about imbalance. This influences change - which will always be there.

phairdon

hydrocynus wrote: »

phairdon wrote: »

Who knows. Maybe players decided they do not want to be on an even playing field (no cp), if we can call it an even playing field.
Reality is, players dislike dying, especially to what they may consider less skillful players (noobs)/lower levels. So any advantage or perceived advantage is going to be used. This is the impression I'm getting from watching different twitch streams.

All I am saying is when they develop these things no one ends up using them because the opinions on the forum do not seem to accurately reflect that of the actual gaming population who remain on the campaigns using all the features

The voices on these forums are most likely a minority. You will read about me disagreeing.

hydrocynus

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Housing and barber shop are coming buddy - they arent really big PVP features. Every DLC minus one has been full blown PVE .. and the one PVP one had more PVE content than PVP.

Reality is - youre delusional. This game is focused on PVE. Changes are made on balance from PVP community because they understand skills and report broken skills / complain about imbalance. This influences change - which will always be there.

Yeah but then why doesn't the pvp community use those changes that they ask for?

I am not delusional. Look at the populations of those campaigns. Truflame still always full. Others not so much.

And I mentioned nothing about PVE this is not about PVE vs PVP. This is about taking dev focus off stuff that the broader community would prefer eg fix lag in cyrodiil.

FENGRUSH

hydrocynus wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Housing and barber shop are coming buddy - they arent really big PVP features. Every DLC minus one has been full blown PVE .. and the one PVP one had more PVE content than PVP.

Reality is - youre delusional. This game is focused on PVE. Changes are made on balance from PVP community because they understand skills and report broken skills / complain about imbalance. This influences change - which will always be there.

Yeah but then why doesn't the pvp community use those changes that they ask for?

I am not delusional. Look at the populations of those campaigns. Truflame still always full. Others not so much.

And I mentioned nothing about PVE this is not about PVE vs PVP. This is about taking dev focus off stuff that the broader community would prefer eg fix lag in cyrodiil.

Ahh the CP change campaign was kind of an 'idea' - and from what I hear its not bad but people literally have to change their builds for it so they arent comfortable going there to do it.

Sewer locked campaigns didnt work because they just became a safe haven for people to farm in really, and they left the rest of the campaigns unlocked. All in all, this whole thing didnt make sense because IC and cyro were not tied together in any reasonable matter. If one related to the other and impacted it, this could have made sense, but they never finished IC. The districts are literally unfinished content from their original design and hold no real value.

Fixing the lag though is separate from all of this content stuff. Its a technical issue, one that they are constrained on technically fixing though. Different teams - but they 'are working on it'. Unfortunately, they will be working on it forever.

Pallio

If you played Skyrim, you know how "balanced" pure pve can be, no one should be able to 1 shot a dragon with a bow.. LOL they sure fixed that! PvP is the check and balance to prevent a meta that can solo vet group content. Feng is the grim reaper of overpowering skill (non-stam sorc related anyway) that keeps everything in check.

hydrocynus

FENGRUSH wrote: »

hydrocynus wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Housing and barber shop are coming buddy - they arent really big PVP features. Every DLC minus one has been full blown PVE .. and the one PVP one had more PVE content than PVP.

Reality is - youre delusional. This game is focused on PVE. Changes are made on balance from PVP community because they understand skills and report broken skills / complain about imbalance. This influences change - which will always be there.

Yeah but then why doesn't the pvp community use those changes that they ask for?

I am not delusional. Look at the populations of those campaigns. Truflame still always full. Others not so much.

And I mentioned nothing about PVE this is not about PVE vs PVP. This is about taking dev focus off stuff that the broader community would prefer eg fix lag in cyrodiil.

Ahh the CP change campaign was kind of an 'idea' - and from what I hear its not bad but people literally have to change their builds for it so they arent comfortable going there to do it.

Sewer locked campaigns didnt work because they just became a safe haven for people to farm in really, and they left the rest of the campaigns unlocked. All in all, this whole thing didnt make sense because IC and cyro were not tied together in any reasonable matter. If one related to the other and impacted it, this could have made sense, but they never finished IC. The districts are literally unfinished content from their original design and hold no real value.

Fixing the lag though is separate from all of this content stuff. Its a technical issue, one that they are constrained on technically fixing though. Different teams - but they 'are working on it'. Unfortunately, they will be working on it forever.

My point exactly. They end up bowing to these suggestions when maybe they are not the best idea in the world.

Zheg

hydrocynus wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Housing and barber shop are coming buddy - they arent really big PVP features. Every DLC minus one has been full blown PVE .. and the one PVP one had more PVE content than PVP.

Reality is - youre delusional. This game is focused on PVE. Changes are made on balance from PVP community because they understand skills and report broken skills / complain about imbalance. This influences change - which will always be there.

Yeah but then why doesn't the pvp community use those changes that they ask for?

I am not delusional. Look at the populations of those campaigns. Truflame still always full. Others not so much.

And I mentioned nothing about PVE this is not about PVE vs PVP. This is about taking dev focus off stuff that the broader community would prefer eg fix lag in cyrodiil.

If you're wondering why the no CP campaigns are buff campaigns and don't have high pop, at least on NA PC, it's because pvp guilds have had enough of ZOS and quit the game. There are now quite literally only a handful left, and whatever campaign they pick will be the competitive one. If there were more guilds and enough pop to actually populate azura's, I'm sure there would be more people there. Even if I wanted to play without CP, guilds are what offer the biggest challenge, so I will go to the campaign where they are.

Believe me, there are certainly some things I wish ZOS would start listening to a minority of pvpers for, in particular the ones that predicted to a T all of the problems with the current meta as soon as they read the patch notes on PTS.

FENGRUSH

A lot of the changes they do make though are based on feedback from the PvP community. The reality is - they dont approach the appropriate fixes, so they end up exacerbating the issue or creating new ones (even when offered other solutions in very public means). It has to be there way... and it hasnt worked out well for the most part. Theres some good changes, but its mostly littered with lots of bad ones and huge skill changes leaving broken skills and abusive changes to fix unrelated issues.

All in all, they go in circles instead of approaching a goal. I believe there is no 'goal' state - its just... damage control and minimizing the loudest complaints with the easiest solutions. I believe end (goal) state will be disastrous and worse then todays balance.

Apoxsee

No one asked for a cp less Vet Campaign... They just gave it to us and extensively removed a server. Which in turn force people to bunch up into two servers. Which in turn created huge lag in those servers. They told us to spread out and they shoved us all in the same room. That is an example of increditbal incompetened ZOS decision making as it finest for you.

All the people who were in the Non vet campaign that had no cp's wanted a campaign that was Cp less because they were getting blown up by people that like to pray on the weaker in the Non Vet Campaign. I agree with that personally.

Axe was a pve server... People would go to it due to a lack of pvp in the sewers so they could grind out mats and tv stones without fear and again something that was given not asked for. It seems to me it was a test to see which model they would follow based on popularity. The people spoke thru useage and they decide to remove that server.

OP, please pontificate how any changes within PVP has affected your PVE experience? I play both and i cant for the life of me see how this affects any

daemonios

I agree with you about ZOS sometimes following a vocal minority into a wild goose chase. I disagree with your wording of the thread title. There is whining everywhere. I don't PvP much myself but I'd like to see people tone down a bit on the PvP vs. PvE wars.

hydrocynus

Apoxsee wrote: »

No one asked for a cp less Vet Campaign... They just gave it to us and extensively removed a server. Which in turn force people to bunch up into two servers. Which in turn created huge lag in those servers. They told us to spread out and they shoved us all in the same room. That is an example of increditbal incompetened ZOS decision making as it finest for you.

All the people who were in the Non vet campaign that had no cp's wanted a campaign that was Cp less because they were getting blown up by people that like to pray on the weaker in the Non Vet Campaign. I agree with that personally.

Axe was a pve server... People would go to it due to a lack of pvp in the sewers so they could grind out mats and tv stones without fear and again something that was given not asked for. It seems to me it was a test to see which model they would follow based on popularity. The people spoke thru useage and they decide to remove that server.

OP, please pontificate how any changes within PVP has affected your PVE experience? I play both and i cant for the life of me see how this affects any

Again I mentioned nothing about PVE. Why does everyone always assume this is a us vs them thing? I play both too and I love them both.

But since you asked (my mind says it's a trap don't answer him don't do it!!!!☺), if you really want I will give you 1 example that I actually view as positive but I know that the majority of Tanks hate and took a long time to adjust to of evert they in fact did ( as some gave up)... must I elaborate or do you know maybe of what I speak already?

Again though, please please let's not make this a PVE vs PVP thing. That's not the point.

Sausage

Would you do watch how small whining turn into big one? MMORPG should be designed so even the whinerers are listened, others doesnt have to get upset, like ESO has something things, for example, if your favorite build is nerfed, you can switch to another, back in the days you had one build, and you had to protect it with all cost. I think Zen understand it little bit but not entirely, shortly said, its smart design if whiners gets what they want and others adapt.

NewBlacksmurf

hydrocynus wrote: »

It seems the few people on the forum who moan the most get their way and then when the changes are developed no one uses them

1) let's have a campaign where sewers is locked unless you own your home keeps
2) let's have a campaign where CP are ignored

Now it seems after them going through the effort of humouring those guys, the actual eso pvp community voted where it counts to move to Truflame and those special campaigns are dead.

It seems in their effort to keep the minority forumers happy they have wasted time that they could have used to do much cooler stuff for us or fix other stuff that needs fixing.

Now we have forum posts with people trying to say how cool it is on Azura star in the hope to get more people to come join them there which obviously shows how under populated it is.

first.....I'm not in any way a PvPer but those two items are something that I prefer when i go to Cyrodil for dailies and the PvE delves only. I'd like to be able to go to IC and not have to PvP so i check the campaign status.

Regarding PvP feedback...I wouldn't say its a few because its a lot of threads with unique posts but specific to those two...I welcome the changes. I actually would like to see all campaigns split specific to Keeps for IC norm with/without CP and Keeps for IC VR with and without CP but I don't PvP so its of no concern as long as I have two campaigns or three to choose from. My main and alt play in different factions, but only 2 of the three so when we are 3 bars to 1 or 0, ill go in only then

Don't assume "no one" uses them because they aren't populated in comparison to PvP competitive campaigns.
Until @ZOS offers a pvE only campaign someone like me will look for the keeps without CP options cause it tends to keep out certain types of players at time intervals.

srfrogg23

hydrocynus wrote: »

It seems the few people on the forum who moan the most get their way and then when the changes are developed no one uses them

1) let's have a campaign where sewers is locked unless you own your home keeps
2) let's have a campaign where CP are ignored

Now it seems after them going through the effort of humouring those guys, the actual eso pvp community voted where it counts to move to Truflame and those special campaigns are dead.

It seems in their effort to keep the minority forumers happy they have wasted time that they could have used to do much cooler stuff for us or fix other stuff that needs fixing.

Now we have forum posts with people trying to say how cool it is on Azura star in the hope to get more people to come join them there which obviously shows how under populated it is.

Ever hear the phrase "the squeaky wheel gets the grease"?

Vigarr

I wish that skills would have 2 separate effects, 1 for PvE and the other for PvP...this way they can constantly change/nerf/etc. the PvP skills without affecting the PvE players.

BenLocoDete

I suppose that Cyrodiil must be crowded at the weekends, because during one scouting quest I've done in there yesterday I've seen only two players, one by horse, other sneaking out of a goblin populated ruin. This is a very different situation than what I experienced in the 2014 release, where several people was found zerging and hunting around the farms and keeps for scouts and such. This troubles me as what is happening to the ESO PvP, is it this abandoned? it is a shame that the central part of the game, the war and the struggle to become the emperor of Tamriel is in such a poor state.

And don't get me wrong, when the game was announced, I wept because it wasn't only PvE, and I never paid much attention to what was going on in Cyrodiil or what was being made to "balance" that area. Now that portion seems to be lingering and this worries me even more.

And I'm at the same time astonished to see how PvE'ers have such bad feelings about PvP'ers, it is like they have been kept hostage for decades and had all their dreams destroyed during that time by those cruel, intrinsically evil PvP'ers. The community is deeply divided and the game has a lot to lose due to this.

As a general feedback, I don't like Cyrodiil. It is so different from the beautiful and organically populated areas you find in the other provinces that it doesn't match to that quality of design. It is empty and during 2 hours scouting there I've killed two wolves and one sabre cat I believe, maybe a tiger, it was dark. I've seen a dozen ice wraiths also, and dremoras holding Bruma and the Cloud Ruler Temple at a distance. Some imperial camps too. Performance must be the case in there, if so I'd take away half of the trees and darken the ground, throw a lot more of burning wood and palisades around and scatter fragments of siege weapons everywhere, make it really look like a desolate, destroyed and hostile war zone. That area is huge, it really lives up to the size it had in Oblivion, but it is so much worse when it comes to building an organic environment that in a lore perspective I'll avoid that place to keep the beauty it was in Oblivion on my mind instead.

NewBlacksmurf

Vigarr wrote: »

I wish that skills would have 2 separate effects, 1 for PvE and the other for PvP...this way they can constantly change/nerf/etc. the PvP skills without affecting the PvE players.

THIS is the most obvious but always ignored feedback.
I'm quoting it as I've often shared this same comment in many other threads.

Apoxsee

hydrocynus wrote: »

Apoxsee wrote: »

No one asked for a cp less Vet Campaign... They just gave it to us and extensively removed a server. Which in turn force people to bunch up into two servers. Which in turn created huge lag in those servers. They told us to spread out and they shoved us all in the same room. That is an example of increditbal incompetened ZOS decision making as it finest for you.

All the people who were in the Non vet campaign that had no cp's wanted a campaign that was Cp less because they were getting blown up by people that like to pray on the weaker in the Non Vet Campaign. I agree with that personally.

Axe was a pve server... People would go to it due to a lack of pvp in the sewers so they could grind out mats and tv stones without fear and again something that was given not asked for. It seems to me it was a test to see which model they would follow based on popularity. The people spoke thru useage and they decide to remove that server.

OP, please pontificate how any changes within PVP has affected your PVE experience? I play both and i cant for the life of me see how this affects any

Again I mentioned nothing about PVE. Why does everyone always assume this is a us vs them thing? I play both too and I love them both.

But since you asked (my mind says it's a trap don't answer him don't do it!!!!☺), if you really want I will give you 1 example that I actually view as positive but I know that the majority of Tanks hate and took a long time to adjust to of evert they in fact did ( as some gave up)... must I elaborate or do you know maybe of what I speak already?

Again though, please please let's not make this a PVE vs PVP thing. That's not the point.

My apologies, I assumed by the title that it was a Pve vs Pvp thing... And yes I also agree on that change, thou many are upset with it.

Vigarr

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I'm quoting it as I've often shared this same comment in many other threads.

I'm guessing they don't implement this because it would mean more work for them but it would be such a great thing for the community...we wouldn't have threads like this one anymore if skills were separated.

IcyDeadPeople

hydrocynus wrote: »

phairdon wrote: »

Who knows. Maybe players decided they do not want to be on an even playing field (no cp), if we can call it an even playing field.
Reality is, players dislike dying, especially to what they may consider less skillful players (noobs)/lower levels. So any advantage or perceived advantage is going to be used. This is the impression I'm getting from watching different twitch streams.

All I am saying is when they develop these things no one ends up using them because the opinions on the forum do not seem to accurately reflect that of the actual gaming population who remain on the campaigns using all the features

I imagine this was intended as a space for new and returning PVP'ers with very low CP to play on a sort of even playing field.

However the new catchup mechanism works so well, new/returning players are able to earn a certain amount of CP relatively quickly,.

At the same the Cyrodiil weekend vendor provides greater incentive for people to play on the high pop campaigns, to earn enough AP to buy some monster helms each week.

Pallio

For folks that ONLY play for PvE, these nerfs seem pointless and mess up there game style. That is the biggest problem, making changes due to PVP "balance", that hurt people that don't care at all about PVP.

timidobserver

I agree. They even went as far as to force nocp on people by adding it to the current most active campaign and making people pay to get off of it. Everyone still left. Time would have been better spent making IC worth entering again.

Joy_Division

hydrocynus wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Housing and barber shop are coming buddy - they arent really big PVP features. Every DLC minus one has been full blown PVE .. and the one PVP one had more PVE content than PVP.

Reality is - youre delusional. This game is focused on PVE. Changes are made on balance from PVP community because they understand skills and report broken skills / complain about imbalance. This influences change - which will always be there.

Yeah but then why doesn't the pvp community use those changes that they ask for?

I am not delusional. Look at the populations of those campaigns. Truflame still always full. Others not so much.

And I mentioned nothing about PVE this is not about PVE vs PVP. This is about taking dev focus off stuff that the broader community would prefer eg fix lag in cyrodiil.

ZoS implemented these campaigns because 1) it was what they thought a lot of people wanted and 2) it was a cheap attempt to address the lag problem and get us to spread out.

CPs have always been a complaint on the forums because people need to find some reason to justify to their ego how they could possibly lose and point to CPs as the crucial tipping point, as if something like 30 CPs actually make a perceptible difference. Coupled this with many reminiscences on these forums about going back to 1.5 when no CPs were in the game and how removing the CP system entirely (i.e., from PvE and bringing back the core mechanics that have been locked behind the CP trees) would be awesome. ZoS heard this and concluded a large part of the community simply wanted a no CP campaign. That's not the same thing. How they can get rid of a core system like CPs so easily but not AoEs for a specific campaign is absolutely beyond me, but them leaving the CP system in place and doing nothing except removing the CPs from a single campaign illustrates to me they aren't listening the the "PvP QQers" as much as you think they are.

As for Axe of Whatever it was called, again, that was ZoS implementing a band-aid type fix that missed the essence of what most PvP players asked for. We wanted an IC that was meaningfully related to the AvAvA aspect of Cyrodiil. This was more than just about access. Capturable districts in the IC. Objectives worth fighting over. Perhaps a way to use the IC/Sewers as a means to move from one side of the map to the other. Make it someplace with something to do aside from collect stones and do PvE quests. None of that happened. All Axe did was make it inconvenient for people to do the one thing in the IC that people do: farm PvE stuff. No wonder nobody wanted to play there.

In short, these are cheap band-aid attempts to placate PvP players that miss the core issues that we do complain about.

Rune_Relic

You mean other peoples problems are not your problem.
So they have no right to complain or make alternative suggestion to make the game better.
Guess we might as well shut the forum.

Azura EU spends much time poplocked..in spite of all the issues.
More times than not I have to queue.
Even though many have left because they simply 'cant play'..rather than 'dont want to'.
Guess the US feel differently about CP imbalance issues than the EU.

Even here, many are disruntled when one faction decides to make it a home campaign and gate camp.
CS is irrelevant in that context.
So saying campaign is dead because....is stretching artistic license just a little.

Pallio

They just need to make PvE and PvP seperate, so they can change one without effecting the other.. Then we could dispense with all the PVP vs. PvE arguments.