The Bloodletter: An Evolution to Sap Tanking (Nightblade Tank Build, Morrowind Ready)

MarronMarvel

This looks like a pretty interesting and awesome build. My main is a Templar healer/dps, and I recently made a magicka NB (thanks, Jubilee Cake). I've been tanking with 5 pieces of Armor Master (4 armor + shield), 5 Footman's (head, shoulder, jewelry), and 2 Spectre's Eye (sword and feet, leftover from my failed Tankplar experiment). I use this setup for tanking things that I feel hit harder like Molag Kena or that giant abomination in ICP; otherwise, I switch out the Footman's for Willpower and Nerien'eth. I've tanked all of the endgame content (normal Maw only) except Sanctum -- and that's what brought me to search for new NB tank builds. I would really, really like to take a stab (or Pierce Armor, if you will) at facing off with the Mantikora, but I'm afraid that my current build won't cut it.

So here is my question: Does Leeching/BC work for Sanctum? I worry that the lower proc rates of Leeching and Malubeth would not make them as effective as if we were pulling large mobs of adds such as in places like ICP and WGT. But, I did see you mention Mantikora (though briefly) in one reply above, so that does give me hope. If it does work well, are there any differences in your bar setup?

Azurya

Hello Gillia,
is it posible for you to update this guide for DB dlc, if there is anything to chance then??

I use this for my new argonian maid and well it is very exiting what goes on ;-))

Thnaks for all your work!

Gilliamtherogue

MarronMarvel wrote: »

This looks like a pretty interesting and awesome build. My main is a Templar healer/dps, and I recently made a magicka NB (thanks, Jubilee Cake). I've been tanking with 5 pieces of Armor Master (4 armor + shield), 5 Footman's (head, shoulder, jewelry), and 2 Spectre's Eye (sword and feet, leftover from my failed Tankplar experiment). I use this setup for tanking things that I feel hit harder like Molag Kena or that giant abomination in ICP; otherwise, I switch out the Footman's for Willpower and Nerien'eth. I've tanked all of the endgame content (normal Maw only) except Sanctum -- and that's what brought me to search for new NB tank builds. I would really, really like to take a stab (or Pierce Armor, if you will) at facing off with the Mantikora, but I'm afraid that my current build won't cut it.

So here is my question: Does Leeching/BC work for Sanctum? I worry that the lower proc rates of Leeching and Malubeth would not make them as effective as if we were pulling large mobs of adds such as in places like ICP and WGT. But, I did see you mention Mantikora (though briefly) in one reply above, so that does give me hope. If it does work well, are there any differences in your bar setup?

For Live I'd swap off of Leeching and into Armor Master for the extra health and resistances for Manti, and then swap back after that for the the rest of the instance. Manti deals high damage but attacks slower, so Leeching and Malubeth lower in value, while everything else has a higher rate of attack to proc it more. On PTS however, Manti has been changed to deal less damage up front but attack faster, so Leeching will increase in value there. Make sure to run evasion as well when fighting him, and put some points into Thick Skinned since his bleed ignores armor resistances and ticks pretty hard.

Gilliamtherogue

r.groenb16_ESO wrote: »

Hello Gillia,
is it posible for you to update this guide for DB dlc, if there is anything to chance then??

I use this for my new argonian maid and well it is very exiting what goes on ;-))

Thnaks for all your work!

I'll be updating it after DBH goes live, since ZoS is in the midst of really moving around tanking values of block cost for the time being.

MarronMarvel

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

For Live I'd swap off of Leeching and into Armor Master for the extra health and resistances for Manti, and then swap back after that for the the rest of the instance. Manti deals high damage but attacks slower, so Leeching and Malubeth lower in value, while everything else has a higher rate of attack to proc it more. On PTS however, Manti has been changed to deal less damage up front but attack faster, so Leeching will increase in value there. Make sure to run evasion as well when fighting him, and put some points into Thick Skinned since his bleed ignores armor resistances and ticks pretty hard.

Thanks for this advice! I appreciate it. I thought I had a full set of Leeching, but I'm missing one piece, grrr! So, still looking forward to trying this build out. In the meantime, I did tank Mantikora with my Armor Master and survived, so I'm pretty excited. Hopefully I can get my last Leeching piece before the DLC comes out (I'm on PS4, so I have a bit more time).

Autolycus

MarronMarvel wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

For Live I'd swap off of Leeching and into Armor Master for the extra health and resistances for Manti, and then swap back after that for the the rest of the instance. Manti deals high damage but attacks slower, so Leeching and Malubeth lower in value, while everything else has a higher rate of attack to proc it more. On PTS however, Manti has been changed to deal less damage up front but attack faster, so Leeching will increase in value there. Make sure to run evasion as well when fighting him, and put some points into Thick Skinned since his bleed ignores armor resistances and ticks pretty hard.

Thanks for this advice! I appreciate it. I thought I had a full set of Leeching, but I'm missing one piece, grrr! So, still looking forward to trying this build out. In the meantime, I did tank Mantikora with my Armor Master and survived, so I'm pretty excited. Hopefully I can get my last Leeching piece before the DLC comes out (I'm on PS4, so I have a bit more time).

@MarronMarvel
If I may interject here

A very strong substitute for Leeching is Bahraha's Curse (henceforth BC), and I can attest to its validity against Mantikora as a NB tank firsthand. BC is a more reliable proc, not only because it procs from your attacks (rather than being attacked), but also because it just outright has 4x the chance to proc as Leeching. Since the release of TG (and the restructuring of CP that put poison into Mighty instead of Thaumaturge), Leeching has been all but a stam tank set. I ran Leeching for a considerable amount of time up until TG.

If you're going to stick with a stam NB tank, then I agree wholeheartedly with Gilliam. If you allocate your attribute points across all three stats, -or- if you are a magicka tank, then BC is the way to go for you.

I would also suggest a better substitute for Armor Master, as it's usefulness extends to full-light-armor tanks, and that's pretty much it. If you're going to trade out one set for a dps set, then keep Footman and trade your Armor Master instead. The resistance values of heavy and medium armor make Armor Master a pretty big waste of resources, in that you can hit the mitigation values you're looking for without going overboard, which is precisely what Armor Master does. Not that this applies to everyone, of course, but in many cases I've seen, even a 5/1/1 setup on a predominantly light-armor build can hit mitigation caps quite easily.

It's entirely possible for you to give up Armor Master without sacrificing mitigation potential (and it's possible to increase your mitigation beyond what you're doing currently, without having to dedicate a full set to it). Focus more on block mitigation and being able to block virtually every time you get hit. Resource management for NBs is far easier than any other tank. If you keep your Siphoning Attacks active, and you time your light attacks so that they fall in between the attacks you're blocking, you can infinitely sustain with light attack weaves, and never even need a Sap Essence to fill you back up. I'd be happy to help with this if you're interested.

Also, sorry Gilliam for hijacking that post.

Gilliamtherogue

@Autolycus , you may want to tag the person you answered, or they may never see it since this isn't their thread Also no worries about responding, saves me the time!

Magnys

@Gilliamtherogue and @Autolycus (and everyone else that added to this thread)...excellent information first off.

I am currently playing as a VR1 Magicka Breton NB and would love to try this out as it seems tanks are in shorter supply and it's something I've always been interested in. Questions I have are:

1) As a Breton would I follow the same stat allocation?
2) I am currently also a Vampire. Should I keep that or "cleanse" it? Should I switch to WW?
3) With DB coming out in a couple weeks should I hold off on changing from Magicka DPS or start learning to tank now? Since hitting VR1 I've been leveling my S/B and other "tank" skills while soloing.
4) How will the changes to gear stats/enchants effect this build when DB comes out?

Right now I have a good collection of different VR1-VR2 BC pieces saved up and have outstanding guildies who can help craft anything I may need. (Good thing about the guild I'm in is they encourage people to try out different specs/roles).

Also @Autolycus, would you mind posting a link to your build or possibly sending it my way? I would like to try out both yours and @Gilliamtherogue specs to see which feels more natural to me.

Appreciate your time and all the effort everyone has put into this. Happy Hunting. Thank you in advance.

Magnys

Autolycus

Magnys wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue and @Autolycus (and everyone else that added to this thread)...excellent information first off.

I am currently playing as a VR1 Magicka Breton NB and would love to try this out as it seems tanks are in shorter supply and it's something I've always been interested in. Questions I have are:

1) As a Breton would I follow the same stat allocation?
2) I am currently also a Vampire. Should I keep that or "cleanse" it? Should I switch to WW?
3) With DB coming out in a couple weeks should I hold off on changing from Magicka DPS or start learning to tank now? Since hitting VR1 I've been leveling my S/B and other "tank" skills while soloing.
4) How will the changes to gear stats/enchants effect this build when DB comes out?

Right now I have a good collection of different VR1-VR2 BC pieces saved up and have outstanding guildies who can help craft anything I may need. (Good thing about the guild I'm in is they encourage people to try out different specs/roles).

Also @Autolycus, would you mind posting a link to your build or possibly sending it my way? I would like to try out both yours and @Gilliamtherogue specs to see which feels more natural to me.

Appreciate your time and all the effort everyone has put into this. Happy Hunting. Thank you in advance.

Magnys

@Magnys I am happy to share my build, but I will do so privately since this is not the place for me to post builds. It would be disrespectful to Gilliam to clutter his build with mine.

As far as your specific questions go:
1. Bretons can afford to distribute their CP a little differently. Due to the inherent spell resistance, you can overweight Hardy and Thick Skinned slightly more than Elemental Defender.
2. Vampire is a preference. I personally find it to be too much liability for little to no utility. The magicka recovery component is the most attractive aspect of it, but NBs are also the easiest class to sustain, particularly for tanking. I wouldn't use it myself, but that doesn't mean you can't.
3. Most of the changes coming in DB that impact us as NB tanks are in CP. It's entirely possible that you may want a piece or two of sturdy for your block cost reduction. But outside of that, it shouldn't have that big of an impact on your gear selection.
4. As far as I can tell, not to a great degree. My personal build is barely changing at all. Others might fight that it is changing drastically, but that doesn't see to be a popular opinion as far as I know. The biggest concern right now seems to be block cost management, but a great deal of that was quelled when Wrobel officially said that there are plenty of places to get cost reduction. Also, as a NB tank, you can literally perma-sustain with just light attacks and siphoning attacks. If you get really, really good at light attack weaving, you will never have resource issues again (unless they nerf us). This means dropping block for a fraction of a second to light attack, and then animation cancelling that light attack by blocking. Timing is key.

Gilliamtherogue

Magnys wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue and @Autolycus (and everyone else that added to this thread)...excellent information first off.

I am currently playing as a VR1 Magicka Breton NB and would love to try this out as it seems tanks are in shorter supply and it's something I've always been interested in. Questions I have are:

1) As a Breton would I follow the same stat allocation?
2) I am currently also a Vampire. Should I keep that or "cleanse" it? Should I switch to WW?
3) With DB coming out in a couple weeks should I hold off on changing from Magicka DPS or start learning to tank now? Since hitting VR1 I've been leveling my S/B and other "tank" skills while soloing.
4) How will the changes to gear stats/enchants effect this build when DB comes out?

Right now I have a good collection of different VR1-VR2 BC pieces saved up and have outstanding guildies who can help craft anything I may need. (Good thing about the guild I'm in is they encourage people to try out different specs/roles).

Also @Autolycus, would you mind posting a link to your build or possibly sending it my way? I would like to try out both yours and @Gilliamtherogue specs to see which feels more natural to me.

Appreciate your time and all the effort everyone has put into this. Happy Hunting. Thank you in advance.

Magnys

Since Autolycus already gave his answers I'll keep it short since I agree with everything he said.

1) For Attribute allocation, yes that is the same, although it depends on what content you are doing. Trials require a more hardy Health and Stamina resource pool, while dungeons you can get away with bare minimums and stacking more into Magicka for more DPS/self healing. For CP as a Breton however, you are able to spend more points outside of Magicka Cost reduction since your racial gives it, and there are diminishing returns on cost reduction. Pretty much subtract whatever % there is from CP by your racial and it should give you a rough estimate of the ideal points into it, and from there its free game. Keep in mind that Block Cost Reduction is now in the green tree however, and we previously spent 75 points in it, making cost reduc/regen allocation harder to allocate.

2. I have not found Vampires to be of any benefit in PvE, the extra resource management is minuscule when compared to raid buffs/proper group synergy and does not justify the bonus Fire damage you take. While you aren't going to be one shot at all, the second a new dungeon with more flame damage comes out, you'll be feeling it. Undeath is also a fairly useless passive as a tank, since you should never be sitting at low health.

3. I'd definitely try and at least have your Sword and Board skill line level 50 with all your desired abilities at least morphed to Rank 1, as well as getting a feeling for the play style of mine/Auto's builds. There is a great deal to learn mechanically with weaving with Siphoning Attacks, and minimizing block down time. Each ability weaves differently and timing has to be learned before your muscle memory can kick in and take care of the rest. Practice makes perfect, so the sooner you start the better.

4. Gear will not change at all really, except I will run 3-4 Sturdy traits (only on small pieces of gear) and keeping Infused on the greater pieces. Also I decided to craft a 5 piece Tava's set to replace my Leeching for single target fights where it can't proc as much. I will continue to run 5 piece Bahraha's, as well as rotating between Malubeth/Bloodspawn 2 piece depending on the fights.

Autolycus

@Gilliamtherogue great comments and insight on that last post. Couldn't agree more!

Arkh__Longstride

@Gilliamtherogue awesome build, NB tank ftw

Returning player, starting from 0 (played on PS4)

Do you think is possible to go whit a 0 0 64 build, bosmer and still be effective?

That could allow me to also play a bosmer stam ganker

Exactly what i used to play on PS4 pre IC. NB stealth oneshotter in pvp, and quick switch to tank for some pve

Or i could go Redguard.. also in line whit a stamina pvp NB

What do you think?

Gilliamtherogue

Arkh__Longstride wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue awesome build, NB tank ftw

Returning player, starting from 0 (played on PS4)

Do you think is possible to go whit a 0 0 64 build, bosmer and still be effective?

That could allow me to also play a bosmer stam ganker

Exactly what i used to play on PS4 pre IC. NB stealth oneshotter in pvp, and quick switch to tank for some pve

Or i could go Redguard.. also in line whit a stamina pvp NB

What do you think?

I always keep my stam DPS setup when I swap, in the video I was 0 0 64 and still did fine. You won't be at max efficiency but it hardly matters for dungeons and whatnot.

Azurya

Dear Gilliam,
I have read now the earlier posts, thx for your sharing this

so I guess nothing new? the CP settings are also still the way they were?
As I have seen so far not much trouble with res-management, but who knows, maybe there are more optimised insights here?!

Thanks in advance!

asgardianrule

So I have chosen to try to build a tank and loved this thread so giving it a shot. I am going the Altmer route for the offensive magic version of this build. So you said to go BC armor and 1 Magicka Regen enchant and 2 Spell Damage?
Are there any other changes I would need to make such as slightly different skills or stat points? All 64 into mag right?

Thanks for your help. great guide

phreatophile

I was wondering if, since Bahara's and (I think) Leeching have had their double dip crit heals removed, and Malubeth has been nerfed; do you see any changes to this build being necessary?

BTW, I say Malubeth has been nerfed not fixed because the made it so only one beam at a time could proc but the occasional uber-heal still happens. Nerfed: yes, fixed: no.

Gilliamtherogue

asgardianrule wrote: »

So I have chosen to try to build a tank and loved this thread so giving it a shot. I am going the Altmer route for the offensive magic version of this build. So you said to go BC armor and 1 Magicka Regen enchant and 2 Spell Damage?
Are there any other changes I would need to make such as slightly different skills or stat points? All 64 into mag right?

Thanks for your help. great guide

If you don't plan on tanking trials and just doing 4 man content/PvP then all 64 into Max Magicka is the way to go. Only running 1 Regen and 2 SD requires you to be very good at the Siphoning Attack proc without dropping block.

Gilliamtherogue

phreatophile wrote: »

I was wondering if, since Bahara's and (I think) Leeching have had their double dip crit heals removed, and Malubeth has been nerfed; do you see any changes to this build being necessary?

BTW, I say Malubeth has been nerfed not fixed because the made it so only one beam at a time could proc but the occasional uber-heal still happens. Nerfed: yes, fixed: no.

While these heals have definitely been reduced they still do what their job is, and that's to heal you through 80% of content without needing a healer. I usually tank with Bloodspawn now anyways for more warhorn's since I run with friends who are all very proficient at the game. The nerfs to the healing offered no redistribution of power, so there aren't any changes to really be done unfortunately. That being said, the new Argonian changes have drastically tipped the scales even further in favor of them over anything else for this build, so I'd definitely go lizard if you plan on maining this role.

Drdeath20

It's funny bcz I've tried telling people that magicka nightblades are still tough and they all laughed

asgardianrule

So if I end up doing trails what will my stat split need to be? Will there be a better way to go for me than 1 regen 2sd?
From your other post it sounds like I should have made this guy a lizard as I just made him a couple days ago

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

asgardianrule wrote: »

So I have chosen to try to build a tank and loved this thread so giving it a shot. I am going the Altmer route for the offensive magic version of this build. So you said to go BC armor and 1 Magicka Regen enchant and 2 Spell Damage?
Are there any other changes I would need to make such as slightly different skills or stat points? All 64 into mag right?

Thanks for your help. great guide

If you don't plan on tanking trials and just doing 4 man content/PvP then all 64 into Max Magicka is the way to go. Only running 1 Regen and 2 SD requires you to be very good at the Siphoning Attack proc without dropping block.

Gilliamtherogue

asgardianrule wrote: »

So if I end up doing trails what will my stat split need to be? Will there be a better way to go for me than 1 regen 2sd?
From your other post it sounds like I should have made this guy a lizard as I just made him a couple days ago

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

asgardianrule wrote: »

So I have chosen to try to build a tank and loved this thread so giving it a shot. I am going the Altmer route for the offensive magic version of this build. So you said to go BC armor and 1 Magicka Regen enchant and 2 Spell Damage?
Are there any other changes I would need to make such as slightly different skills or stat points? All 64 into mag right?

Thanks for your help. great guide

If you don't plan on tanking trials and just doing 4 man content/PvP then all 64 into Max Magicka is the way to go. Only running 1 Regen and 2 SD requires you to be very good at the Siphoning Attack proc without dropping block.

In trials I prefer 2 regen and 1 SD just because I often solo parts where I need to spam abilities for extended periods of time without incoming help. Stat split you want to make sure you hit near 30k health and near 20k stamina so you can avoid quickly being killed as well as having a hearty stamina pool for the moments where you can't be fed shards. Trials are very punishing for dropping block, and with Siphoning we need to do that so there are times you shouldn't.

gard

Another great Gilliam build. Commenting so it shows up in my bookmarks.
Of course I didn't see this thread before I saw the one at Deltia's which is not up to date, so I went Altmer instead of Argonian.
Ah well, I'll make it work.

gard

Would it be possible to complete vMA with this build?

Gilliamtherogue

gard wrote: »

Would it be possible to complete vMA with this build?

Highly unlikely, as vMA requires a high amount of damage to be dealt to complete. While this build can produce high damage as a tank role, it would be extremely difficult to get it to be proficient to act as a DPS role. You'd be better off going caster nightblade instead.

WalksonGraves

My magika nb tank is a beast, vampires are the best option for self heals as invigorating drain gets up to 31% hp missing / sec plus ult. Anyone complaining about fire clearly never bothered reading all the passives, 30% dr more than absorbs the fire damage. I've never been killed by extra fire damage, if 20% more damage is a problem for you have terrible mitigation and have failed in your build.

gard

WalksonGraves wrote: »

My magika nb tank is a beast, vampires are the best option for self heals as invigorating drain gets up to 31% hp missing / sec plus ult. Anyone complaining about fire clearly never bothered reading all the passives, 30% dr more than absorbs the fire damage. I've never been killed by extra fire damage, if 20% more damage is a problem for you have terrible mitigation and have failed in your build.

What skill in this build would you replace with invigorating drain, and why would invigorating drain be the better choice?

gard

Autolycus wrote: »

Magnys wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue and @Autolycus (and everyone else that added to this thread)...excellent information first off.

I am currently playing as a VR1 Magicka Breton NB and would love to try this out as it seems tanks are in shorter supply and it's something I've always been interested in. Questions I have are:

1) As a Breton would I follow the same stat allocation?
2) I am currently also a Vampire. Should I keep that or "cleanse" it? Should I switch to WW?
3) With DB coming out in a couple weeks should I hold off on changing from Magicka DPS or start learning to tank now? Since hitting VR1 I've been leveling my S/B and other "tank" skills while soloing.
4) How will the changes to gear stats/enchants effect this build when DB comes out?

Right now I have a good collection of different VR1-VR2 BC pieces saved up and have outstanding guildies who can help craft anything I may need. (Good thing about the guild I'm in is they encourage people to try out different specs/roles).

Also @Autolycus, would you mind posting a link to your build or possibly sending it my way? I would like to try out both yours and @Gilliamtherogue specs to see which feels more natural to me.

Appreciate your time and all the effort everyone has put into this. Happy Hunting. Thank you in advance.

Magnys

@Magnys I am happy to share my build, but I will do so privately since this is not the place for me to post builds. It would be disrespectful to Gilliam to clutter his build with mine.

As far as your specific questions go:
1. Bretons can afford to distribute their CP a little differently. Due to the inherent spell resistance, you can overweight Hardy and Thick Skinned slightly more than Elemental Defender.
2. Vampire is a preference. I personally find it to be too much liability for little to no utility. The magicka recovery component is the most attractive aspect of it, but NBs are also the easiest class to sustain, particularly for tanking. I wouldn't use it myself, but that doesn't mean you can't.
3. Most of the changes coming in DB that impact us as NB tanks are in CP. It's entirely possible that you may want a piece or two of sturdy for your block cost reduction. But outside of that, it shouldn't have that big of an impact on your gear selection.
4. As far as I can tell, not to a great degree. My personal build is barely changing at all. Others might fight that it is changing drastically, but that doesn't see to be a popular opinion as far as I know. The biggest concern right now seems to be block cost management, but a great deal of that was quelled when Wrobel officially said that there are plenty of places to get cost reduction. Also, as a NB tank, you can literally perma-sustain with just light attacks and siphoning attacks. If you get really, really good at light attack weaving, you will never have resource issues again (unless they nerf us). This means dropping block for a fraction of a second to light attack, and then animation cancelling that light attack by blocking. Timing is key.

Could you post a build thread here? (On the forums, not in this thread)
It might be interesting to see the differences in builds.

altemriel

nice

Gilliamtherogue

Updated some explainations, adjusted traits and CP section, and tidied up some awkward looking formatting.

magnus_berglindb16_ESO

Hey man! Been using your build for a while and recently finished my Leeching set! Is this updated for One Tamriel, and if now, will it be?