ZOS For the love of god remove infused from vendors

Nifty2g

No one uses infused, this is a minmaxing game, infused is not as good as it used to be.

These vendors are a very good idea, but can you please, just remove infused from them, have them come in divines/impen, up the prices a bit it's a very good AP sink as players have a lot of AP.

This type of thing, is just adding onto the irritation of players in this game, it's no secret that this game is built around minmaxing and meta gameplay, so please can you keep up to date with the traits, this isn't 1.5, the buff to mundus stones made divines the most useful trait if you're using thief of shadow as they are percentage increases (Mostly pvers are doing this, hardly see it in pvp) and anything else use impenetrable as you're gaining way more than losing. (Mostly pvpers are doing this as impen doesn't work in pve)

Legendary Divines = 7.5% increase of Mundus stone


Legendary Infused Large Pieces = 1041
Legendary Small Large Pieces = 421
Legendary Non Infused Large Pieces = 868
Legendary Non infused Small Pieces = 351
Total Infused = 4755
Toal Non Infused = 4008
Gain = 747

So you gain a total of 747 Magic or Stamina by using 7/7 infused over 7/7 Divines, or you can gain a 7.5% increase to your mundus stone.

How is this a marginal difference, to me it's a huge difference.

Can you people stop saying its a marginal difference, it's clearly not when you look into it a bit. Infused is almost useless at this point compared to Divines and Impenetrable

Valrien

Please please please. I'm sick of being disappointed every week and we're only 2 weeks in!!!

KochDerDamonen

Please ZOS hand me muh minmax gear for 100k gold please

I vote we make the vendor gear only come in sturdy and well-fitted :^)

Tryxus

Welp, expect some Training gear from the vendor next week

PS: Infused is pretty good, jus' saying

Nifty2g

Tryxus wrote: »

Welp, expect some Training gear from the vendor next week

PS: Infused is pretty good, jus' saying

this isn't 1.5, the buff to mundus stones made divines the most useful trait if you're using thief of shadow as they are percentage increases (Mostly pvers are doing this, hardly see it in pvp) and anything else use impenetrable as you're gaining way more than losing. (Mostly pvpers are doing this as impen doesn't work in pve)

Acrolas

Meanwhile, people can't even PVP or play the IC content they paid for because ZOS didn't add campaigns to compensate for the weekend scrub traffic.

Well... they did... but then they put them back in the dev spank bank...

Valrien

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

Please ZOS hand me muh minmax gear for 100k gold please

I vote we make the vendor gear only come in sturdy and well-fitted :^)

Why must you be so sarcastic? I don't care if they double the price but it's ridiculous that they're giving us no (reliable) alternative of acquiring these shoulders. So what am I supposed to do? Open 2 chests per day and pray to the gods of RNG that I get it right? We have a right to *** about this. If we could grind for them then there wouldn't be ANY complaining about the infused trait (except from PvPers).

nordsavage

Infused is fine on helms but not on shoulders.

Nifty2g

nordsavage wrote: »

Infused is fine on helms but not on shoulders.

No it's not, infused is no longer that great of a trait.

KochDerDamonen

Valrien wrote: »

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

Please ZOS hand me muh minmax gear for 100k gold please

I vote we make the vendor gear only come in sturdy and well-fitted :^)

Why must you be so sarcastic? I don't care if they double the price but it's ridiculous that they're giving us no (reliable) alternative of acquiring these shoulders. So what am I supposed to do? Open 2 chests per day and pray to the gods of RNG that I get it right? We have a right to *** about this. If we could grind for them then there wouldn't be ANY complaining about the infused trait (except from PvPers).

Because I'm a crude man and am checking the forums between matches of a MOBA.

In a serious vein, it bugs me to see things placed into a game based on a current meta as opposed to whatever reasoning on the part of the developers. I'm not going to buy from this vendor and the people that do aren't hurting me. Might as well let ya pick the trait, I don't see why not.

silky_soft

We can't even pray to rnjesus...

strikeback1247

Valrien wrote: »

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

Please ZOS hand me muh minmax gear for 100k gold please

I vote we make the vendor gear only come in sturdy and well-fitted :^)

Why must you be so sarcastic? I don't care if they double the price but it's ridiculous that they're giving us no (reliable) alternative of acquiring these shoulders. So what am I supposed to do? Open 2 chests per day and pray to the gods of RNG that I get it right? We have a right to *** about this. If we could grind for them then there wouldn't be ANY complaining about the infused trait (except from PvPers).

Hmmm I wanna see some training and exploration Molag Kena or Engine Guardian helmets next week! Imagine all the salty posts on the forums! Sweet sweet tears...

mb10

I use infused on large armour pieces to gain more magicka or stamina based on the build.

Well you're in a bit of a catch 22... Infused from vendors and hopeless at doing dungeons I assume.

Maybe undaunted sets just arent for you and people who keep moaning.

If there is a complaint it should be that ZOS allowed the sets to be bought tbh.

FloppyFrank

I don't get whats wrong with infused. Isn't it still the second best trait right behind divines, especially on big pieces?

krees28b14_ESO

Nifty2g wrote: »

nordsavage wrote: »

Infused is fine on helms but not on shoulders.

No it's not, infused is no longer that great of a trait.

To stop the people arguing the divines/infused thing how about linking the topics where the math has been done to prove that divines is better. You sound like a kid denying they had their hand in the cookie jar before dinner. Your the one making the claim so back up your claim with proof other than your say so.

Vangy

Well my tank likes infused with hakeijo on big pieces like helms. So... Yeah.

Valrien

mb10 wrote: »

I use infused on large armour pieces to gain more magicka or stamina based on the build.

Well you're in a bit of a catch 22... Infused from vendors and hopeless at doing dungeons I assume.

Maybe undaunted sets just arent for you and people who keep moaning.

If there is a complaint it should be that ZOS allowed the sets to be bought tbh.

You do realize that the OP is in one of the top PvE guilds on the NA server? Also, go ahead and enjoy that extra 200 stamina, I'm sure it will make a bigger difference than 7.5% Mundus bonus or less critical damage taken.

Reevster

FloppyFrank wrote: »

I don't get whats wrong with infused. Isn't it still the second best trait right behind divines, especially on big pieces?

Yep, I would jump on infused since god only knows when you will see divines.

Jaronking

FloppyFrank wrote: »

I don't get whats wrong with infused. Isn't it still the second best trait right behind divines, especially on big pieces?

Not in PVP its only useful on the big pieces.Even then its like this Divines,Impen then infused.Unless your a magical Sorc maybe even a Magical period since Shields can't be crit so you have nothing to worry about.That's why people say Crit builds don't work in PVP.

Nifty2g

krees28b14_ESO wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

nordsavage wrote: »

Infused is fine on helms but not on shoulders.

No it's not, infused is no longer that great of a trait.

To stop the people arguing the divines/infused thing how about linking the topics where the math has been done to prove that divines is better. You sound like a kid denying they had their hand in the cookie jar before dinner. Your the one making the claim so back up your claim with proof other than your say so.

gladly

from @gilliamtherogue
in a pure DPS or Healer setup, you'll only ever enchant full primary resource (Magicka for casters/healer, stamina for stam based dps). In PvP the choice is yours based on your preference or spec, you can spread between all three or you can use prismatic. The combat value of prismatic don't have solid mathematical numbers to them, as they offer more situational utility that may or may not benefit you from fight to fight. You only want to take 7x divines over 4x divines 3x infused if you're using the Shadow or Thief stone. Here's some simple math to determine effectiveness.

Legendary Divines = 7.5% increase of Mundus stone
Shadow = 12% increase to critical strike damage
Thief = 12% critical strike chance
Apprentice/Warrior = 166 spell/wep damage(before amps)
Tower/Mage = 1280 magicka/stamina (before amps)

Divines per legendary piece
Shadow = .9% CHD
Thief = .9% Crit chance
Apprentice/Warrior = 12.45 SD/WD(decimal is added after all calculations are completed and is rounded down until it increases to a whole number, in the case of two divines you'd get 16, but with 3 you'd get 19.)
Tower/Mage = 96 stam/magicka

Infused bumps resource enchants from 868 to 1041 on big pieces(173 increase) and 351 to 421 on lesser(70 increase).

Now each ability in game has a unique coefficient that multiplies itself to its respective stat. This in turn increases the listed tool tip damage. For example; Surprise Attack and Concealed Weapon have a .128625 : 1 ratio for resources. For each point of stamina (surprise attack) or magicka (concealed weapon) you gain that much tooltip increase. Since calculations ignore decimals until they add up into whole numbers, you need 8 magicka or stamina to gain anything. They also have a 1.35091 weapon damage (surprise attack) or spell damage (concealed weapon) scaling that. Every 1 SD/WD increases its tooltip by the stated amount. Now lets find the effectiveness of an increase in accordance to this skill.

Shadow = complex, living number. Depends on how much tooltip you have. Let's use my character's tooltip as an example. Fully buffed my tooltip is 12865. My crit hit damage multiplier without divines is 1.76. Therefor on a target with no armor I'd deal 22642 damage. Divines is a .9% increase to my CHD with shadow, so that number becomes 22758. +116 damage.

Thief = again, a complex living number. This will depend on your crit hit damage, as they are directly related. Lets compare the efficiency of base CHD and my CHD just to see the differences. Base CHD is 1.5, mine was 1.76 (no divines). .9% chance to deal 50% more damage is .45% (less than 1) increase to overall damage. With high tooltips, that's nothing to laugh at. Now with my CHD that becomes .684% overall damage. It'd take a large wall of text to truly put a value of is this better or worse, so I'll leave it to the the reader to take that. I think this increase outweighs the gains of infused, but let's move on.

Apprentice/Warrior= Static number, with some minor boosts based on context. 12.45 SD/WD offers 16.819 tooltip to SA. However, there are passives that increase your WD by a % (Major/Minor Brutality, WW passives, Templar passives, etc) that can change the importance. Let's look at it from a universal situation where anyone can have access to Major/Minor Brutality. 25% increase overall means you're getting 15.563 WD which translates to 21.024 TT increase per divines.

Tower/Mage= Again, a static number with some minor boosts depending. 96 stamina/magicka would be a 12.348 TT increase so SA/concealed weapon. There are also passives that increase magicka/stamina by %'s that can increase this value. Again lets look at it from a universal level where CP offers a 25%(@3600 cap) bonus to each tree's resources (Warrior = health, Mage = magicka, Thief = stam). 96 becomes 120 and that turns to 15.435 TT increase on SA/concealed.

Now that we've found the values of divines for these mundus stones, lets look at infused. Luckily this is a much simpler thing to discuss since you pretty much see everything that's going on at eye level.

Since OP already knows that x7 infused would be silly, lets use the old meta x4 divines x3 infused on large pieces (helm chest legs). 20% increase to the largest possible enchants in game (v16) boosts the enchant from an 868 magicka/stam to 1041. 173 increase in accordance to SA/concealed would be a 22.252 TT increase. Let's give this the same treatment as we did Tower/Mage and add the universal increase of 25% more if at 3600 CP cap. We're now at 207.6 magicka/stam and a 26.703 TT increase for SA/concealed.

All of these numbers are subjective to other amps that I've chosen to ignore since they're not universally obtainable (racials, build exclusive, etc) that can change the effectiveness of these. Pretty much a TL;DR it depends. The answer to the question is based on the context of the question. PvP and PvE call for very different things, and each changes the effectiveness that each of these stats offer. It's up to the user of this information to determine the answers for them self.

like i said, divines is the most useful for pve
impen is most useful for pvp

infused maybe for tanks and healers depending on the person, though i'd still use divines if i was a healer

dsalter

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

Please ZOS hand me muh minmax gear for 100k gold please

I vote we make the vendor gear only come in sturdy and well-fitted :^)

or impen. as they ARE being sold in a PvP environment, make them have PvP traits.

Emma_Overload

Maybe they should make the AP version Impenetrable, and then the version that costs gold would be Divines?

Valrien

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Maybe they should make the AP version Impenetrable, and then the version that costs gold would be Divines?

Best idea I've heard all day. They should probably give the option of Infused though, at least for sets like EG since some tanks I know prefer Infused helmets.

crislevin

Go farm yourself. You are so elite anyway, why bother buying this thing like us nobody.

Valrien

crislevin wrote: »

Go farm yourself. You are so elite anyway, why bother buying this thing like us nobody.

Because you can't farm it?

strikeback1247

Valrien wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

Go farm yourself. You are so elite anyway, why bother buying this thing like us nobody.

Because you can't farm it?

You can get 16 quests for 16 chances for the gear each day. If you reach this cap every day and still have the time and will to farm even more, you need to seriously rethink your life

Nifty2g

crislevin wrote: »

Go farm yourself. You are so elite anyway, why bother buying this thing like us nobody.

what kind of comment is that lol

Morbash

strikeback1247 wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

Go farm yourself. You are so elite anyway, why bother buying this thing like us nobody.

Because you can't farm it?

You can get 16 quests for 16 chances for the gear each day. If you reach this cap every day and still have the time and will to farm even more, you need to seriously rethink your life

You further solidified the point he was trying to make. It's not practical to think shoulders can be farmed at the same rate as helms. Not everyone has 8 characters to farm shoulders with. It only takes one character to farm helms. Not to mention, with a good group, you can knock out dungeon runs every 15 minutes.

The complaints are justified. Furthermore, why do you guys care that others are requesting more options?

Enraged_Tiki_Torch

First you have to define the term "meta" and what it means to certain people. Yes I am quoting Crown but he's a smart guy because the distinguishment he made is quite accurate. To some people it is the standard of which the majority of players will collective agree on and follow. What it isn't is a finite solution, meaning whatever the meta is; it is not perfect and can and will change. Actually in any game, it must evolve to avoid becoming stale.

There are people who will follow the meta and then their are people who will break and redefine the "meta". Take the card game Magic the Gathering. Wherever a new set comes out, a few decks will quickly define the meta. Equivalent to this game, they are the min-maxed decks. Analytically they are shown to be superior. However soon after a new deck will rise up and become successful enough to break the meta using concepts that are "Anti-Meta".

The same goes on in this game. In PvP, if Impenetrable is the best trait (a.k.a the "META"). Then isn't Infused a counter to that Meta, or the ANTI-META. Impenetrable is used to counter crit, but Infused is used to strengthen the power of a character underneath crit. (It is my understanding that Divine is only good on say the Thief Mundus for example, when all or at most are divine, etc etc Conclusion that 6divine/1Infused is better than 7divine.)

Many will disagree and that is to be expected because like I said the majority follow the meta. There are also those who are interested in ways to break or redefine the meta. They are both crucial to the continuing evolution of the game.

Aspiring mastered Theorycrafters understand both the meta and also strive to find new and inventive ways to break and redefine the meta. But nobody can be a master (perfect) theorycrafter because the later is a never ending goal in what should be an ever-changing environment.

Good game developers (not MMOs or Zenimax in particular) will try to keep the evolution going. Always slowly shifting towards the Anti-Meta once a new Meta is established. If they gave us Impent then they would be enforcing a stale gaming environment. Maybe they saw everyone using Impent (META) and the goal is to evolve the game by giving us Infused (ANT-META).

Maybe this is all the rubbish of a mad scientist...

P.S. Infused Shoulders does suck.

Ajaxduo

Agreed Nifty ^^

Xendyn

Likely result of this thread:
ZOS makes the traits random and we see nothing but Well Fitted and Reinforced.