Craglorn Trials and DSA scaled to v16

L2Pissue

developers created the trials
developers created the weapons
scaling is all about changing numbers
ZOS scaled things before, did you know that?
these dungeons:
Banished Cells
Elden Hollow
City of Ash
Tempest Island
Selene’s Web
Spindleclutch
Wayrest Sewers
Crypt of Hearts
Volenfell
Blackheart Haven
Fungal Grotto
Darkshade Caverns
Arx Corinium
Direfrost Keep
Blessed Crucible
Vaults of Madness
has been scaled to veteran rank 16 with IC DLC
these boss sets:
Blood Spawn
Engine Guardian
Maw of the Infernal
Nerien'eth
Nightflame
Scourge Harverster
Spawn of Mephala
Valkyn Skoria
has been scaled to veteran rank 16 with IC DLC
scaling is about changing numbers,its a few hours work in the office, it has nothing related to NASA and alien invasion to earth nor why Mc Donald's sells more burgers than Wendy's or why Peter in The Family Guy said: "if you poop in your dreams, you poop for real"
why ZOS did not scale trials and DSA until this day?
reason #1 : money.
lets assume Craglorn trials and DSA are scaled to v16:
competition between the master's weapons and maelstrom weapons can decide if a player buys the DLC or doesnt (Orsinium)
competition between the healer's habit and twilight remedy can decide if a player buys the DLC or doesnt (Thieves Guild)
competition between footman's fortune and XYZ set can decide if a players buy the DLC or doesnt (Dark Brotherhood)
so on so forth
reason #2: players.
1)players kept playing the trials and DSA (to appear on leaderboards and write that they are number 1 or 2 worldwide on their resume for their next job application) thus resulted of the useless trials not to appear dead when they are dead
2)players did not ask/show interest/reason from the developers to invest a few business hours to scale the trials of adding 1 million HP to that boss or create a v16 version of the already exist healer's habit ring
3)instead demand, players quitted, PvE trials guilds disbanded: some players dont feel like playing a game where its developers abandoned upgrading its endgame based leaderboard of PvE for the sake of profits, dear ZOS: pissing players off will not force them to buy your DLC, they will go play alternative game.
whats the endgame in ESO PvE anyway? the single player Orsinium DLC Maelstrom Arena? or the upcoming Thieves Guild DLC Maw of Lorkhaj?
even if they have a leaderboards, v12 Aetherial Archives, Hel Ra Citadel and v14 Sanctum Ophidia are not endgame, endgame is what gives endgame gear, when you do Craglorn trials you dont take the loot, why? because its not endgame loot, its useless.

Kippesnikke

i agree. the trials should drop the best gear ingame. and i think a system should be put up for pvp aswell to get good gear.
and plz. not bop but boe.

Kathrein

L2Pissue wrote: »

scaling is about changing numbers,its a few hours work in the office, it has nothing related to NASA and alien invasion to earth nor why Mc Donald's sells more burgers than Wendy's or why Peter in The Family Guy said: "if you poop in your dreams, you poop for real"

that's what annoys me the most, just change then numbers and bring back some endgame plz

Fat_Cat45

Expect to see some sort of v16 scaling or other v16 rewards by Dark Brotherhood at the earliest.

This is most likely a restriction to force players in buying Thieve's Guild just for the Maw of Lorkhaj trial. Originally the trial was listed as a base-game addition, but then was written as being included in the Thieve's Guild DLC.

Their goal is to get as many people as possible to purchase Thieve's Guild because "other trials aren't a challenge, they won't drop v16 items, and other reasons". Once the sales for Thieve's Guild slows down and declines then you can expect some implementation of v16 items to existing trials.

They are going to force end-game PvE players to purchase Maw of Lorkhaj however they can before they allow other trials in the base-game to allow drops of v16 quality. My assumption is that it will be included with the estimated veteran rank removal with Dark Brotherhood DLC.

LMar

The above post, specifically the scaling of trials to end game in Dark Brotherhood makes sense. Since the veteran ranks are going to be removed it makes sense that they are waiting to rebalance EVERYTHING with the rank removals in mind. Why rescale everything to v16 when this mechanism is going to be removed in 3 months time? It makes no sense to do it now. Everything will be scaled to level 50 plus champion point system

Kippesnikke

LMar wrote: »

The above post, specifically the scaling of trials to end game in Dark Brotherhood makes sense. Since the veteran ranks are going to be removed it makes sense that they are waiting to rebalance EVERYTHING with the rank removals in mind. Why rescale everything to v16 when this mechanism is going to be removed in 3 months time? It makes no sense to do it now. Everything will be scaled to level 50 plus champion point system

3 months time. Eso is getting empty. act now or the game will die.

Fat_Cat45

@kippesnikke ╭∩╮◕ل͜◕) nightbot can't save you now...

AlnilamE

Kippesnikke wrote: »

LMar wrote: »

The above post, specifically the scaling of trials to end game in Dark Brotherhood makes sense. Since the veteran ranks are going to be removed it makes sense that they are waiting to rebalance EVERYTHING with the rank removals in mind. Why rescale everything to v16 when this mechanism is going to be removed in 3 months time? It makes no sense to do it now. Everything will be scaled to level 50 plus champion point system

3 months time. Eso is getting empty. act now or the game will die.

I somehow don't think that the fact the old trials are still v12 and v14 has much to do with ESO getting empty. The people who ran trials ad nauseam for the gear or a place in the Leaderboards left when the mate changed from crit to power. Not when the level cap was raised to v16.

Kippesnikke

AlnilamE wrote: »

Kippesnikke wrote: »

LMar wrote: »

The above post, specifically the scaling of trials to end game in Dark Brotherhood makes sense. Since the veteran ranks are going to be removed it makes sense that they are waiting to rebalance EVERYTHING with the rank removals in mind. Why rescale everything to v16 when this mechanism is going to be removed in 3 months time? It makes no sense to do it now. Everything will be scaled to level 50 plus champion point system

3 months time. Eso is getting empty. act now or the game will die.

I somehow don't think that the fact the old trials are still v12 and v14 has much to do with ESO getting empty. The people who ran trials ad nauseam for the gear or a place in the Leaderboards left when the mate changed from crit to power. Not when the level cap was raised to v16.

people are leaving cause they get bored. at v14 the trials were for the elite players already to easy. now v16 and its even easier. people want to be challenged in this game. thats why they leave.

Magdalina

AlnilamE wrote: »

Kippesnikke wrote: »

LMar wrote: »

The above post, specifically the scaling of trials to end game in Dark Brotherhood makes sense. Since the veteran ranks are going to be removed it makes sense that they are waiting to rebalance EVERYTHING with the rank removals in mind. Why rescale everything to v16 when this mechanism is going to be removed in 3 months time? It makes no sense to do it now. Everything will be scaled to level 50 plus champion point system

3 months time. Eso is getting empty. act now or the game will die.

I somehow don't think that the fact the old trials are still v12 and v14 has much to do with ESO getting empty. The people who ran trials ad nauseam for the gear or a place in the Leaderboards left when the mate changed from crit to power. Not when the level cap was raised to v16.

It's part of the reason. We're bored and we have no endgame content that's worth it(aside from maybe IC dungeons but just how many times in a row can you run those without getting bored?). I still consider vDSA like the funest instance in game but v14...I remember that place actually being a challenge, not a burn-everything-til-mechanics-happen thing:/
Even the more casual players eventually run out of quests and start getting interested in something more but what do they have? v14 instances which no one even wants to run anymore because why bother.

Hundreds and thousands of hours of work dumped into beautiful, challenging(well...at some point), rewarding content that's just sitting there being useless while people are leaving because of nothing to do. I just don't understand ZOS logic there. I mean I can gather they have their hands full and simply don't have time for everything but c'mon...the places are already there, the mechanics are fine, all they need is a scaling similar to that of vet dungeons and a buff to v16, how hard can that be? Seems so dumb not to use what you already have.

Shader_Shibes

They won't do it, simply because it means you can play end game content and get the best gear in some cases, Vicious Serpent for example, without buying any DLC's. And even when they remove vet ranks and scale stuff off CP's, Craglorn Trials, inc VDSA, will be lower tier gear than new trial.

Enodoc

Once something is designed to scale, changing the level it scales to is easy. But implementing the required things to make something scaleable takes a lot of time. The original Trials don't scale because they weren't designed to. The original Dungeons didn't scale either; this was added in Update 5, and, along with one new Veteran dungeon, was the primary focus of that update. That alone should indicate the amount of development time that's required to make something scaleable; it's definitely not as simple as just changing some numbers.

AlnilamE

Magdalina wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Kippesnikke wrote: »

LMar wrote: »

The above post, specifically the scaling of trials to end game in Dark Brotherhood makes sense. Since the veteran ranks are going to be removed it makes sense that they are waiting to rebalance EVERYTHING with the rank removals in mind. Why rescale everything to v16 when this mechanism is going to be removed in 3 months time? It makes no sense to do it now. Everything will be scaled to level 50 plus champion point system

3 months time. Eso is getting empty. act now or the game will die.

I somehow don't think that the fact the old trials are still v12 and v14 has much to do with ESO getting empty. The people who ran trials ad nauseam for the gear or a place in the Leaderboards left when the mate changed from crit to power. Not when the level cap was raised to v16.

It's part of the reason. We're bored and we have no endgame content that's worth it(aside from maybe IC dungeons but just how many times in a row can you run those without getting bored?). I still consider vDSA like the funest instance in game but v14...I remember that place actually being a challenge, not a burn-everything-til-mechanics-happen thing:/
Even the more casual players eventually run out of quests and start getting interested in something more but what do they have? v14 instances which no one even wants to run anymore because why bother.

Hundreds and thousands of hours of work dumped into beautiful, challenging(well...at some point), rewarding content that's just sitting there being useless while people are leaving because of nothing to do. I just don't understand ZOS logic there. I mean I can gather they have their hands full and simply don't have time for everything but c'mon...the places are already there, the mechanics are fine, all they need is a scaling similar to that of vet dungeons and a buff to v16, how hard can that be? Seems so dumb not to use what you already have.

I've actually been running trials on a weekly basis with my PvE guild with a bunch of folks who always thought trials were so far above them that they didn't dare to try. We are doing this as practice being in a large group for when MoL comes out and we'll give that a try. If those trials were v16, I don't think that as many people would be tempted to give it a shot, so I'm not unhappy that we have "training wheels" available.

Enodoc wrote: »

Once something is designed to scale, changing the level it scales to is easy. But implementing the required things to make something scaleable takes a lot of time. The original Trials don't scale because they weren't designed to. The original Dungeons didn't scale either; this was added in Update 5, and, along with one new Veteran dungeon, was the primary focus of that update. That alone should indicate the amount of development time that's required to make something scaleable; it's definitely not as simple as just changing some numbers.

I think what people are asking for is making the trials and DSA v16 period. Not scalable like the dungeons and like the new trial will be.

Lord Xanhorn

They aren't going to do this. They already said that Trials are not scalable like 4 man dungeons are and it would take a bunch of work to make them scalable. Work they could be doing to make new content for $. Don't expect any old content to get many updates and that includes Ors, IC, Craglorn, and vanilla.

magnusthorek

I'm already terrible at current state as I'm not able (along with a team ofc) to pass the Mantikora of Sanctum Ophidia, mostly because of the terrible FPS drop (I can't see a *** at 4 FPS >.<), so I don't mind scaling or not

Troneon

No other game company would find this kind of thing acceptable for a few weeks never mind months....

End game content that does not scale to end game...while thinking that one new trail makes up for lacking group content...

But Z$S....

As long as people are spending crowns on fluff crap in the store and buying the latest DLC, they don't care about keeping long term players, they want fast high short term turn over of casuals who come, spend money and move on...

Cuyler

You'll be able to get the new v16 loot from leaderboard rewards doing the old trials :P so they have done something about reviving interest in them. To bad 80% of the endgame player base had to leave first.

L2Pissue

Enodoc wrote: »

Once something is designed to scale, changing the level it scales to is easy. But implementing the required things to make something scaleable takes a lot of time. The original Trials don't scale because they weren't designed to. The original Dungeons didn't scale either; this was added in Update 5, and, along with one new Veteran dungeon, was the primary focus of that update. That alone should indicate the amount of development time that's required to make something scaleable; it's definitely not as simple as just changing some numbers.

stop spreading the misinformation that scaling trials/DSA is the worlds hardest problem
ZOS holding the title of best MMO of 2015, and you are saying that they will struggle in scaling a content they created?
hell no they wont struggle at all. out of hundreds if not thousands other MMOs, ESO has been chosen as the best MMO
and again, you saying that the team that was able to achieve that will struggle in scaling 3 trials and DSA?

Cuyler wrote: »

You'll be able to get the new v16 loot from leaderboard rewards doing the old trials :P so they have done something about reviving interest in them. To bad 80% of the endgame player base had to leave first.

oh really? you can get new v16 loot that designed for other trial called Maw of Lorkhaj, from the leaderboards of other trials that have their own loot but not scaled to v16
i heared that ESO has a playerbase of millions, out of these millions top 400 on leaderboard(across all servers and consoles) will get new v16 loot?
lets assume that there are 1,000,000 players ready to compete on leaderboards of craglorn trials for the top 400 to recieve a "new v16 loot", thats 0.04% of players are going to recieve new v16 loot from craglorn every week
thats amazing man
thats very amazing
in the best MMO of 2015, 0.04% of "endgame" PvE players are going to recieve new loot from the weekly rewards, and guess what, these spots are already taken, the top 100 on leaderboards are already been choosen, they are the same people who been on the freaking leaderboards since years while other players just quit and even more going to quit when they realize that the owner of best MMO of 2015 is going to "give v16 loot of old trials" to 0.04% of the players who play non DLC exclusive trial
even more players are going to leave, as at all times, new players will come to ESO on first week of new DLC and quit after it, its always been like this
0.04% is based on the assumption that ESO have 1,000,000 players who plays endgame PvE
ZOS says they have playerbase of millions when they discuss something to press

Thelon

L2Pissue wrote: »

ZOS holding the title of best MMO of 2015, and you are saying that they will struggle in scaling a content they created?

Usara

It has been explained by ZoS and mentioned above. They can not do it, because it wasn't coded for scaling to begin with.
It's not a shocker honestly, I could perfectly understand that. I have played a lot of MMO, I can't name one that scaled all content for endgame.

What I think is unacceptable : what they had from the beginning was a schedule. Dev studios know long before what they are going to work on - since it takes so long to develop. They certainly knew - probably long even before launch (considering Raidlorn was postponed, because it was supposed to be available at the release) that nothing would replace Raidlorn raids before a very, very long time.
So how could they not think about scaling in the first place, since they knew nothing would replace those raids for months (a year and a half) ?

When content comes out regularly, no scaling isn't a problem. When there is no content - at all - to fill the gap, it is terrible.

On another hand, maybe some people should stop talking about how ZoS are greedy ***
They are a company. Not a charity. Of course they are here to make money. Charged DLC is not some conspiracy to milk you of your savings. They offer a product, you pay if you want it, that's all. People are just losing credibility when screaming outrage because they sell DLCs.

What should probably be considered is the quality of those DLCs. Does the product is worthy of its price ? That is open to
debate (like two DLCs in a row without endgame large-group content scaling to our current level, imho...)

L2Pissue

Usara wrote: »

It has been explained by ZoS and mentioned above. They can not do it, because it wasn't coded for scaling to begin with.

joke of the year

Enodoc

L2Pissue wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Once something is designed to scale, changing the level it scales to is easy. But implementing the required things to make something scaleable takes a lot of time. The original Trials don't scale because they weren't designed to. The original Dungeons didn't scale either; this was added in Update 5, and, along with one new Veteran dungeon, was the primary focus of that update. That alone should indicate the amount of development time that's required to make something scaleable; it's definitely not as simple as just changing some numbers.

stop spreading the misinformation that scaling trials/DSA is the worlds hardest problem
ZOS holding the title of best MMO of 2015, and you are saying that they will struggle in scaling a content they created?
hell no they wont struggle at all. out of hundreds if not thousands other MMOs, ESO has been chosen as the best MMO
and again, you saying that the team that was able to achieve that will struggle in scaling 3 trials and DSA?

I didn't say that it was hard or that they can't do it, I said it'll take more time than you think. Best guess is that it would take 4-6 months, based on how long it took them to implement scaling dungeons.

Tonnopesce

Kathrein wrote: »

L2Pissue wrote: »

scaling is about changing numbers,its a few hours work in the office, it has nothing related to NASA and alien invasion to earth nor why Mc Donald's sells more burgers than Wendy's or why Peter in The Family Guy said: "if you poop in your dreams, you poop for real"

that's what annoys me the most, just change then numbers and bring back some endgame plz

At least ESO have some end game like 18 normal 4 man dungeons (some are even vet) a 4 man trial (vet and normal) tree 12 man trial(vet and normal) and a solo player trial (vet and normal).
Everyone is so exited about BDO right now to forget that it has little to zero endgame MMO-related ESO have earned the MMO of the year title period.
Yes scaling the trials will be a good move but they have done a lot of good stuff in the last year, give them time.

Kathrein

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

Kathrein wrote: »

L2Pissue wrote: »

scaling is about changing numbers,its a few hours work in the office, it has nothing related to NASA and alien invasion to earth nor why Mc Donald's sells more burgers than Wendy's or why Peter in The Family Guy said: "if you poop in your dreams, you poop for real"

that's what annoys me the most, just change then numbers and bring back some endgame plz

At least ESO have some end game like 18 normal 4 man dungeons (some are even vet) a 4 man trial (vet and normal) tree 12 man trial(vet and normal) and a solo player trial (vet and normal).
Everyone is so exited about BDO right now to forget that it has little to zero endgame MMO-related ESO have earned the MMO of the year title period.
Yes scaling the trials will be a good move but they have done a lot of good stuff in the last year, give them time.

Why did you bring BDO in this conversation?
yes, BDO doesn't have endgame pve but neither does ESO right now and one new trial isn't gonna cut it for long

Master_Fluff

Anyone who says that no one wants to do the Craglorn trials is wrong. I want to do them. I don't care that the loot and leaderboard rewards isn't v16. As long as it's a fun experience and some v12 Warlock rings find their way to me I'll be satisfied.

Kippesnikke

L2Pissue wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Once something is designed to scale, changing the level it scales to is easy. But implementing the required things to make something scaleable takes a lot of time. The original Trials don't scale because they weren't designed to. The original Dungeons didn't scale either; this was added in Update 5, and, along with one new Veteran dungeon, was the primary focus of that update. That alone should indicate the amount of development time that's required to make something scaleable; it's definitely not as simple as just changing some numbers.

stop spreading the misinformation that scaling trials/DSA is the worlds hardest problem
ZOS holding the title of best MMO of 2015, and you are saying that they will struggle in scaling a content they created?
hell no they wont struggle at all. out of hundreds if not thousands other MMOs, ESO has been chosen as the best MMO
and again, you saying that the team that was able to achieve that will struggle in scaling 3 trials and DSA?

Cuyler wrote: »

You'll be able to get the new v16 loot from leaderboard rewards doing the old trials :P so they have done something about reviving interest in them. To bad 80% of the endgame player base had to leave first.

oh really? you can get new v16 loot that designed for other trial called Maw of Lorkhaj, from the leaderboards of other trials that have their own loot but not scaled to v16
i heared that ESO has a playerbase of millions, out of these millions top 400 on leaderboard(across all servers and consoles) will get new v16 loot?
lets assume that there are 1,000,000 players ready to compete on leaderboards of craglorn trials for the top 400 to recieve a "new v16 loot", thats 0.04% of players are going to recieve new v16 loot from craglorn every week
thats amazing man
thats very amazing
in the best MMO of 2015, 0.04% of "endgame" PvE players are going to recieve new loot from the weekly rewards, and guess what, these spots are already taken, the top 100 on leaderboards are already been choosen, they are the same people who been on the freaking leaderboards since years while other players just quit and even more going to quit when they realize that the owner of best MMO of 2015 is going to "give v16 loot of old trials" to 0.04% of the players who play non DLC exclusive trial
even more players are going to leave, as at all times, new players will come to ESO on first week of new DLC and quit after it, its always been like this
0.04% is based on the assumption that ESO have 1,000,000 players who plays endgame PvE
ZOS says they have playerbase of millions when they discuss something to press

uhm actually it is a problem. because of spaghetti programming. and this is from first hand information.

Kippesnikke

Kathrein wrote: »

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

Kathrein wrote: »

L2Pissue wrote: »

scaling is about changing numbers,its a few hours work in the office, it has nothing related to NASA and alien invasion to earth nor why Mc Donald's sells more burgers than Wendy's or why Peter in The Family Guy said: "if you poop in your dreams, you poop for real"

that's what annoys me the most, just change then numbers and bring back some endgame plz

At least ESO have some end game like 18 normal 4 man dungeons (some are even vet) a 4 man trial (vet and normal) tree 12 man trial(vet and normal) and a solo player trial (vet and normal).
Everyone is so exited about BDO right now to forget that it has little to zero endgame MMO-related ESO have earned the MMO of the year title period.
Yes scaling the trials will be a good move but they have done a lot of good stuff in the last year, give them time.

Why did you bring BDO in this conversation?
yes, BDO doesn't have endgame pve but neither does ESO right now and one new trial isn't gonna cut it for long

@kathrein is right. more trials are needed if this game wants to continue.

Tonnopesce

Kathrein wrote: »

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

Kathrein wrote: »

L2Pissue wrote: »

scaling is about changing numbers,its a few hours work in the office, it has nothing related to NASA and alien invasion to earth nor why Mc Donald's sells more burgers than Wendy's or why Peter in The Family Guy said: "if you poop in your dreams, you poop for real"

that's what annoys me the most, just change then numbers and bring back some endgame plz

At least ESO have some end game like 18 normal 4 man dungeons (some are even vet) a 4 man trial (vet and normal) tree 12 man trial(vet and normal) and a solo player trial (vet and normal).
Everyone is so exited about BDO right now to forget that it has little to zero endgame MMO-related ESO have earned the MMO of the year title period.
Yes scaling the trials will be a good move but they have done a lot of good stuff in the last year, give them time.

Why did you bring BDO in this conversation?
yes, BDO doesn't have endgame pve but neither does ESO right now and one new trial isn't gonna cut it for long

Sorry is cuz my guild is harassing me with BDO stuff and i'm just tired of hearing about that game -_- and i've wanted to tell everyone that is bad...

But i've got a point, on how this game have improved overall from a year on, all the stuff that we want is slowly begin implemented and i believe that trials scaling can be one of those.
You can't consider everything old just because you have completed already ( or the sets have become old, hell how they are supposed to sell dlc if everything drops sets of the same value?) i'm in a guild that runs every week some noob trials and DSA runs and that's still fresh endgame for many.

Cuyler

Kippesnikke wrote: »

Kathrein wrote: »

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

Kathrein wrote: »

L2Pissue wrote: »

scaling is about changing numbers,its a few hours work in the office, it has nothing related to NASA and alien invasion to earth nor why Mc Donald's sells more burgers than Wendy's or why Peter in The Family Guy said: "if you poop in your dreams, you poop for real"

that's what annoys me the most, just change then numbers and bring back some endgame plz

At least ESO have some end game like 18 normal 4 man dungeons (some are even vet) a 4 man trial (vet and normal) tree 12 man trial(vet and normal) and a solo player trial (vet and normal).
Everyone is so exited about BDO right now to forget that it has little to zero endgame MMO-related ESO have earned the MMO of the year title period.
Yes scaling the trials will be a good move but they have done a lot of good stuff in the last year, give them time.

Why did you bring BDO in this conversation?
yes, BDO doesn't have endgame pve but neither does ESO right now and one new trial isn't gonna cut it for long

@kathrein is right. more trials are needed if this game wants to continue.

I concur

Kupoking

They just want you to buy a dlc to do more raids.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

AlnilamE wrote: »

I've actually been running trials on a weekly basis with my PvE guild with a bunch of folks who always thought trials were so far above them that they didn't dare to try. We are doing this as practice being in a large group for when MoL comes out and we'll give that a try. If those trials were v16, I don't think that as many people would be tempted to give it a shot, so I'm not unhappy that we have "training wheels" available.

I actually understand this to some degree, but thats why they should be able to scale based on the group. I will tell you right now, if you are using existing trials at their current difficulty as training wheels, MoL is going to be a rude awakening. It is like saying the MA is training for VMA. It makes sense in theory, but then you realize that the difficulty is not even in the same ball park.