This is what it's like to mainhand a bow in PVP

Huggalump

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMJWCIU5hJE

gen_reynard2050

OtarTheMad

Players asked for bow nerfs and got them... now bow is useful for... for... um... I swear something is useful about it in PvP hold on... I got this... um... can you throw your bow at the enemy? No... crap. Maybe if they allowed us to use the pointy end of a bow we could stab an enemy? Can't get the animation to work anytime soon? Crap... I got nothing... use a 2H.

Huggalump

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Players asked for bow nerfs and got them... now bow is useful for... for... um... I swear something is useful about it in PvP hold on... I got this... um... can you throw your bow at the enemy? No... crap. Maybe if they allowed us to use the pointy end of a bow we could stab an enemy? Can't get the animation to work anytime soon? Crap... I got nothing... use a 2H.

Snipe + weaving attacks does decent damage when it lands, imo. I think the problem is trying to get it to land while also trying to kite and deal damage with a charge up attack.

I dunno, I'm not quite sure what the solution is, but I thought these two fights show a comically large difference.

Farorin

Huggalump wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Players asked for bow nerfs and got them... now bow is useful for... for... um... I swear something is useful about it in PvP hold on... I got this... um... can you throw your bow at the enemy? No... crap. Maybe if they allowed us to use the pointy end of a bow we could stab an enemy? Can't get the animation to work anytime soon? Crap... I got nothing... use a 2H.

Snipe + weaving attacks does decent damage when it lands, imo. I think the problem is trying to get it to land while also trying to kite and deal damage with a charge up attack.

I dunno, I'm not quite sure what the solution is, but I thought these two fights show a comically large difference.

Back in the day, this was what the forums looked like


"OH MY GOD!!11 BOW/SNIPE IS OP NERF BOW/SNIPE"

"It's super easy to close the gap, just use any gap closer, then a bow user is at a large disadvantage. It is also super easy to hear and avoid a snipe from an enemy player, just use roll dodge"

So I find it super funny how things have flip-flopped.

Nerfs are bad.

AlnilamE

Is it super easy to avoid a snipe? I only hear the sound when I'm being hit. What am I missing?

A bow is a ranged weapon, so it makes sense it would not be that great in a close up fight in close quarters. I'm not sure how it could be changed in that respect.

Molag_Crow

Nice video to be honest. I'm glad you highlighted those issues, especially about the fact that Wrecking Blow is the most effective yet boring ability for Stamina users and bows are just meh.

I saw the recent buffs to bows but that was for PvE. I hope the sustain of bows in PvP can be effective and strong in the future so that Stamina users don't have to resort to Wrecking Blow, as they do.

harrlockk616

Agree NERF'S r bad

Ffastyl

The point you bring up with Empower is one change from Update 6 that needs to be reverted: the removal of same-attack conditional on it. It used to not apply to the move that granted Empower, meaning you had to weave to get the effect.

Now,
1 -> 1 -> 1 -> 1 -> 1 -> 1 -> . . . -> 1 -> 1
(1 is Wrecking Blow, if you didn't catch my drift)

WldKarde

The meta keeps changing as the cry's for nerf ring out.

Too bad ZOS doesn't just pick a path and stick to it.

People are willing to change with the times, but only so long as there is a clear vision for those changes.

If your chosen class or play style get's constantly hit with the nerf bat...most will just give up and find another game.

I wish ZOS would begin to understand this.


And constant nerfs is NOT the answer! A blend of nerfs AND buffs, just might be a good place to start though

Ffastyl

I do have to say, the Sword and Shield and Bow combination is my favorite to play because of how weavable/combo-able both weapon types are. But I cannot deny the necessity of a Two-Hander for the Major Brutality buff, HoT and iconic skill. Brawler is a fun skill to use but woefully underpowered. :'(

Drakilian

That was an awesome fight. The bow one, of course.

Though I get the definite feeling you would have lost to a marginally better opponent, or any DK

Huggalump

AlnilamE wrote: »

Is it super easy to avoid a snipe? I only hear the sound when I'm being hit. What am I missing?

A bow is a ranged weapon, so it makes sense it would not be that great in a close up fight in close quarters. I'm not sure how it could be changed in that respect.

I guess snipe has some kind of whistle or something, but I dunno, I never avoid it either when it's a surprise.

I'm focusing on after the fight has started. Wrecking blow has a cast time and a CC that makes follow up hits super easy. Snipe has a cast time and a flight time.

So as you see in the video, if I land CC with wrecking blow, it's over. But if I land CC when using snipe, I still might not even hit him. If someone chooses to play 100% defensive, like this guy, the fight is going to last forever.

Molag_Crow wrote: »

Nice video to be honest. I'm glad you highlighted those issues, especially about the fact that Wrecking Blow is the most effective yet boring ability for Stamina users and bows are just meh.

I saw the recent buffs to bows but that was for PvE. I hope the sustain of bows in PvP can be effective and strong in the future so that Stamina users don't have to resort to Wrecking Blow, as they do.

There's actually a lot of different buffs that are going to be good for the bow. I still don't think it'll be meta, but waaaaaaay better than what it is now.

Are you talking about the new passive? I think that'll be great for mainhanding bow in PVP as well. I use my light/heavy attacks a LOT. I'm pretty sure I'll be able to keep that buff up for most of the time. I'm excited.

On top of that, there's also the poison champion point change, which will be great for Bows. And there's the pvp bow set, which will probably be very good, though I haven't tested it yet. But of course, the greatest thing will be the removal of the rooting gap closers.... I don't know how that even made it onto live.

Baconfat79

I have nothing constructive to add about the weapon balance issues in this video, but I just had to say that the choice of music was amazing. Mad props for keeping it funky!

Lyrebon

AlnilamE wrote: »

Is it super easy to avoid a snipe? I only hear the sound when I'm being hit. What am I missing?

A bow is a ranged weapon, so it makes sense it would not be that great in a close up fight in close quarters. I'm not sure how it could be changed in that respect.

There's a very audible creaking of the string being drawn and the sound of the arrow through the air. Course if you have a billion other things going on like in Alliance Wars there's no chance you're going to hear it. Snipe also has a long wind-up time so you can see the animation clearly.

Waseem

bows are awesome for killing horses, guars, senches,bears and soon camels(ganking from stealth in ESO's lore)
its also fun to snipe with while at keep walls, backrow of groups fightings etc - its how they come by design

Toc de Malsvi

As someone who has sniped a bunch I can tell you I can hear that anywhere, it is very distinct and audible before impact. Dying to snipe alone is just poor play.

FriedEggSandwich

AlnilamE wrote: »

Is it super easy to avoid a snipe? I only hear the sound when I'm being hit. What am I missing?

A bow is a ranged weapon, so it makes sense it would not be that great in a close up fight in close quarters. I'm not sure how it could be changed in that respect.

Yeah pretty much, just dodge roll as soon as the first hits or you hear the sound. If the first shot hits the subsequent shots shouldn't. Unless you are ww/vamp glass cannon build with 16k hp you should survive the first shot. Or just spam shield/reflect/bol, they soon switch target, and if they don't you now know where they are.

My synopsis as a magicka user: because it's the only ranged physical damage (afaik) it's difficult to follow it up with anything outside of melee range, you can't easily snipe into surprise attack for example. And as you pointed out; it can be ineffective to use within melee range. Rock and a hard place. The last time I was scared of a bow was 1.6.

Edit: If you are mounted you should hear combat drums as soon as you are targeted by snipe (or anything). That is your cue to dismount and tank-up.

Farorin

I dunno.. When someone aims at me with snipe, the whistle sound is very easy to pick before it hits me, then all you do is roll dodge and you are fine.

Reevster

If it wasnt for Nerf post this forum would be dead...long live nerf posts!

Farorin wrote: »

Huggalump wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Players asked for bow nerfs and got them... now bow is useful for... for... um... I swear something is useful about it in PvP hold on... I got this... um... can you throw your bow at the enemy? No... crap. Maybe if they allowed us to use the pointy end of a bow we could stab an enemy? Can't get the animation to work anytime soon? Crap... I got nothing... use a 2H.

Snipe + weaving attacks does decent damage when it lands, imo. I think the problem is trying to get it to land while also trying to kite and deal damage with a charge up attack.

I dunno, I'm not quite sure what the solution is, but I thought these two fights show a comically large difference.

Back in the day, this was what the forums looked like


"OH MY GOD!!11 BOW/SNIPE IS OP NERF BOW/SNIPE"

"It's super easy to close the gap, just use any gap closer, then a bow user is at a large disadvantage. It is also super easy to hear and avoid a snipe from an enemy player, just use roll dodge"

So I find it super funny how things have flip-flopped.

Nerfs are bad.

If it wasn't for Nerf posts this forum would be dead...long live Nerf posts!

Thornen

Swap snipe for silver shards and watch the tears roll in.

Huggalump

Baconfat79 wrote: »

I have nothing constructive to add about the weapon balance issues in this video, but I just had to say that the choice of music was amazing. Mad props for keeping it funky!

Haha thanks man. At first I was using some super serious cool kid electronic song, but when I switched to the funk it changed the entire tone of the video from emo to upbeat. Love that song.

Thornen wrote: »

Swap snipe for silver shards and watch the tears roll in.

Do you run with that? I've tried weaving silver shard with snipe (snipe+medium attack+silver shard)

But just looking at the numbers, I can't imagine that using silver shards as your main dps is stamina efficient.

Thornen

Yeh spamming shards will run you out of stamina fast, but you can anim cancel 3 in the time it takes to cast 1 snipe.

olsborg

I find the bow alot of fun, but sadly you are right and its not the best choice for pvp.

Huggalump

Thornen wrote: »

Yeh spamming shards will run you out of stamina fast, but you can anim cancel 3 in the time it takes to cast 1 snipe.

As soon as I red your post, I started trying it out. I don't even have it leveled all the way yet.

What's the anim cancel on it? Block?

Alucardo

Nice post and comparison man. After watching your original videos I created my own Khajiit stam sorc (S+B/Bow). He's VR2 now, and I'm not gonna lie, it's a lot more fun than WB spam. I do however have ransack on my bar so I can still fight perma-flapping DKs.
I think it's going to be even better next patch (apart from the 25% physical reduction making bows even weaker...), but poison damage will be physical, meaning Mighty will boost it. Can finally go back to Lethal Arrow for major defile. Also, the new Marksman set looks badass (5% stam cost reduction on all abilities, bow attacks do 8% more damage against players).
They are also wanting to buff Hawkeye. With Marksman set being AvA, this means it would come in jewellery. You could potentially run 5pc Hawkeye, 5pc Marksman.

Sorry, getting off track. Snipe being the main damage dealer is a bit of a problem for reasons you've shown - it just floats through the air and can easily be dodged.
You may not like this idea, I don't know, but I'd rather snipe looked like this:

- Reduce damage a bit
- Make it .5 sec cast
- Travels through the air much faster

Unlike wrecking blow, snipe can be interrupted, so that 1 sec cast time is a b*tch when you're trying to legit fight with a bow. Hopefully making it .5 secs would help us pull it off more often.

Egonieser

Bow is good for two things - Opening attacks and attacks out of gapclose range. Using bow as a primary against melee is not really efficient. Like you said - fun, yeah, if played right. Efficient? No.

nilldax

Huggalump wrote: »

Thornen wrote: »

Swap snipe for silver shards and watch the tears roll in.

Do you run with that? I've tried weaving silver shard with snipe (snipe+medium attack+silver shard)

But just looking at the numbers, I can't imagine that using silver shards as your main dps is stamina efficient.

Silver Shards are better only against "wickeds". Instead, use DW (yeah, lack of Rally kicks sometimes), and combination of Snipe + Medium Attack + (weapon swap) Flying Blade. Or if you want to be sure it lands - in last moment cast Rune Cage (sorc) /Fossilize (DK). In case of my toon, its possible to deal with 3-hit combo ~20k dmg on player(!). As a side note - weapon damage: 2,5k-bow/2,8k-DW, max stamina hangs on 40k.
To "standard" skills of archery, find place for Draining/Magnum Shot. This one allows to gain some range and provides disorient, which can be followed by Invasion (2+ sec stun). Meanwhile DoT (Venom Arrow) is kinda pointless - next update allows to proc on point shileds.
In overall, bow is worth as support&moderate DD in PvP (one-shots/point shield breaker), ganker, root.
P.S. to add flavor to bow roll bonus - try out Tactican CP passive.

OtarTheMad

What bow was:



What happens when you use it now:

OtarTheMad

All funny posts aside they need to find a happy medium with nerfing skills so that they don't go overboard with it. They always take a step back when they overreact to the community and destroy a class/skill/passive and then have to spend time rebuffing it and making it work again instead of working on other things.

They spent so much time nerfing DKs and then for a while there magicka DK in PvP was hard to find, you probably would have found a Falmer or a dragon before you found a good magicka DK. Then you look at Unstable wall, nerfed to the point where a level v16 could spam it on a level 10 and not kill him... they had to spend time on these two things and make them viable again. That is time they could have been spending on other things. I am glad they reworked cloak and glad they went the medium nerf route with Steel Tornado. They also toned down stamina damage in PvP in general with those new CP passives.

They are closer to balance but still need some work and also need to stop over nerfing things. Bow could use some slight love, I am not talking about over buffing or making it OP but just make it better than it is.

Praeficere

The poor v2 grinder