The Game is Currently Pay to Win

Personofsecrets

1. People buy DLC for actual money
2. DLC contains gear that is superior compared to gear released in the base game
3. Only people who have bought the DLC can earn some of this superior DLC gear because of it's BOP status.
4. Therefore this game is pay to win because of the above points

Players pay to get DLC and win because of it. This is pretty simple and basic pay to win.

*Yes, many games make players buy DLC to advance. Those games have a pay to win system also.
** No pay to win isn't necessarily a bad thing. What in life isn't pay to win?

Edit:

Thank you everyone for being so passionate about your opinions, but please debate my points rather than simply dismissing them so that we may have a real discussion. I appreciate your posts.

Faulgor

That's like saying a subscription is Pay 2 Win.

Ra'Shtar

Personofsecrets wrote: »

1. People buy DLC for actual money.
2. DLC contains gear that is superior compared to gear released in the base game
3. Only people who have bought the DLC can earn some of this superior DLC gear because of it's BOP status.
4. Therefore this game is pay to win

Players pay to get DLC and win because of it. This is pretty simple and basic pay to win.

*Yes, may games make players buy DLC to advance. Those games have a pay to win system also.
** No pay to win isn't necessarily a bad thing. What in life isn't pay to win?

If we apply your logic to every MMO that has expansion we could say every MMO is pay to win AND if we apply this logic to subscription only MMOs like FFXIV and WoW they are P2W because even if you bought the game you don't have acces to it if you don't pay, and this is how the world gets dumber and dumber every day.

Personofsecrets

Ra'Shtar wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

1. People buy DLC for actual money.
2. DLC contains gear that is superior compared to gear released in the base game
3. Only people who have bought the DLC can earn some of this superior DLC gear because of it's BOP status.
4. Therefore this game is pay to win

Players pay to get DLC and win because of it. This is pretty simple and basic pay to win.

*Yes, may games make players buy DLC to advance. Those games have a pay to win system also.
** No pay to win isn't necessarily a bad thing. What in life isn't pay to win?

If we apply your logic to every MMO that has expansion we could say every MMO is pay to win AND if we apply this logic to subscription only MMOs like FFXIV and WoW they are P2W because even if you bought the game you don't have acces to it if you don't pay, and this is how the world gets dumber and dumber every day.

Your reductio is correct, but where is the problem is finding all MMO's to be pay to win?

D0ntevenL1ft

Wow these need to stop .. Pay to win ? They're running a business ? I'd like to see you progress your current business while giving everything for free. You act like the second you buy orinsium you're given a free maelstrom 2h to go with your free molag kena set from IC? After these free gifts you are then sky rocketed to the top of the elder scrolls hall of fame, where there is no non-subscribers allowed.

dem0n1k

How does someone 'win' at ESO?

You can happily play & enjoy ESO without the DLC(s). Playing & enjoying is winning!

Sharakor

Vote: Is @Personofsecrets mad?
A: Yes
B: No

EnemyOfDaState

The only way this game is pay to win is if you make up your own definition of what pay to win is, congratz OP you cracked the case.

Thelon

Kammakazi

Sharakor wrote: »

Vote: Is @Personofsecrets mad?
A: Yes
B: No

Personofsecrets

Please debate my well reasoned argumentation if you think that I am mistaken. Ad hominems will not suffice in showing that I am mistaken (which I am not).

D0ntevenL1ft

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Please debate my well reasoned argumentation if you think that I am mistaken. Ad hominems will not suffice in showing that I am mistaken (which I am not).

You are stating that gear wins fights and that is wrong. 5 Magnus 4 seducer and you're set for magicka sorc. All f2p. End of discussion.

olsborg

I just disagree most with ZOS because some of the best gear for pvp can only be achieved by doing highend pve. (Monsters sets and Maelstrom weps)

rager82b14_ESO

Ok, I might be the harsh on ZOS, but even I got to say that the world does not work for free. Money needs to be made.

Vangy

It's not pay to win. It's pay-to-play. You paid for ie: ic expansion and you get to play it. That means sewer runs, molag bal farms, the 2 iC dungeons and all the perks that come (you earn! Not getting handouts here) with it. Like kena helm won't fall out of the sky or from a crown box once u pay for ic. So if you choose not to pay(play) orsinium then you won't get to "earn" the perks that come with it. I think this is fair.

My understanding of pay2win is something along the lines of I fling 100 bucks and the Developers lick it up like puppies going after a doggy treat and give for example a maelstrom weapon with 200 weapon power that no one else can get with no effort apart from the paying. Paying to access content is paying 2 play. Not paying 2 win. U can play(pay) ic or orsinium and still not have any of the rare items such as kena sets or maelstrom weapons if ur a nub cake.

Personofsecrets

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Ok, I might be the harsh on ZOS, but even I got to say that the world does not work for free. Money needs to be made.

Exactly, hence the need for pay to win systems such as DLC gear.

runagate

Except that the game originally was subscription based and with a subscription one can in fact still have access to all DLCs, and thus nothing has changed at all except that people can also B2P and then play for free, without the perks of having access to DLCs.

What in holy hell would someone in fully kitted out endgame gear DO without access to the DLCs? Overrun AA like a vamprir ERPer at a Hot Topic sale? I don't get it.

And don't say PvP. All the mats are just as (poorly) available in Cyrodiil as it is in the DLC zones.

Maybe you can't get Julianos on your own without buying it from some crafter with access to Wrothgar, but Twice Born and Hundings and all the monster helms and agility/willpower rings all come from subscriptionless content. If you think Briarheart or Jolting Arms sets are viable at endgame (which is now MoL) you've lost your mind.

D0ntevenL1ft

Personofsecrets wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Ok, I might be the harsh on ZOS, but even I got to say that the world does not work for free. Money needs to be made.

Exactly, hence the need for pay to win systems such as DLC gear.

I enjoy how you pick and choose the easiest posts to reply too. You aren't making a strong argument my friend. "This game is pay to win because all the people who are winning pay" isn't an acceptable argument.

Personofsecrets

runagate wrote: »

Maybe you can't get Julianos on your own without buying it from some crafter with access to Wrothgar, but Twice Born and Hundings and all the monster helms and agility/willpower rings all come from subscriptionless content. If you think Briarheart or Jolting Arms sets are viable at endgame (which is now MoL) you've lost your mind.

Spell Power Cure, Imperium, Scathing Mage

rager82b14_ESO

Personofsecrets wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Ok, I might be the harsh on ZOS, but even I got to say that the world does not work for free. Money needs to be made.

Exactly, hence the need for pay to win systems such as DLC gear.

That is fine, Other mmos do the same thing. So I don't care what you call it. So all MMOs are p2w.

vyrusb23

Personofsecrets wrote: »

1. People buy DLC for actual money
2. DLC contains gear that is superior compared to gear released in the base game
3. Only people who have bought the DLC can earn some of this superior DLC gear because of it's BOP status.
4. Therefore this game is pay to win because of the above points

Players pay to get DLC and win because of it. This is pretty simple and basic pay to win.

*Yes, many games make players buy DLC to advance. Those games have a pay to win system also.
** No pay to win isn't necessarily a bad thing. What in life isn't pay to win?

Edit:

Thank you everyone for being so passionate about your opinions, but please debate my points rather than simply dismissing them so that we may have a real discussion. I appreciate your posts.

/sarcasm
You're actually wrong. It's work to win. You see, you have to work for the money to pay for the game and the DLC. If you get the money via disability, it's disability to win. If you get the content with money via social security, it's social security to win. etc.
/sarcasm

Personofsecrets

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Ok, I might be the harsh on ZOS, but even I got to say that the world does not work for free. Money needs to be made.

Exactly, hence the need for pay to win systems such as DLC gear.

That is fine, Other mmos do the same thing. So I don't care what you call it. So all MMOs are p2w.

Sure, so why does there become such a resentment at pay to win systems? Really this is all pay to win.

Personofsecrets

vyrusb23 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

1. People buy DLC for actual money
2. DLC contains gear that is superior compared to gear released in the base game
3. Only people who have bought the DLC can earn some of this superior DLC gear because of it's BOP status.
4. Therefore this game is pay to win because of the above points

Players pay to get DLC and win because of it. This is pretty simple and basic pay to win.

*Yes, many games make players buy DLC to advance. Those games have a pay to win system also.
** No pay to win isn't necessarily a bad thing. What in life isn't pay to win?

Edit:

Thank you everyone for being so passionate about your opinions, but please debate my points rather than simply dismissing them so that we may have a real discussion. I appreciate your posts.

You're actually wrong. It's work to win. You see, you have to work for the money to pay for the game and the DLC. If you get the money via disability, it's disability to win. If you get the content with money via social security, it's social security to win.

That is a pretty good point. I didn't consider that line of thought.

Forestd16b14_ESO

I don't see many players winning from Trinimacs valor or Trail by Fire or even Reactive armor. Any body else see players winning using those sets? Any body at all?

Personofsecrets

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

I don't see many players winning from Trinimacs valor or Trail by Fire or even Reactive armor. Any body else see players winning using those sets? Any body at all?

What do you think about Spell Power Cure set @Forestd16b14_ESO ?

rager82b14_ESO

I don't understand why people get upset about the p2w. If you got to pay for content to get better gear for pvp. That is pretty much p2w. I understand your point, but at the same time p2w most people think of it as buying full sets on the cash shop.

Content updates and pricing has always been done in mmos. So I see your point.

Volkodav

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Please debate my well reasoned argumentation if you think that I am mistaken. Ad hominems will not suffice in showing that I am mistaken (which I am not).

Fancy words wont change the fact that you are wrong.You dont have to pay for more than the basic game to win.You'll still hit the vet levels,still get Silver and Gold,and you'll do it without special gear,etc. Tons of people do this all the time.

Personofsecrets

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

I don't understand why people get upset about the p2w. If you got to pay for content to get better gear for pvp. That is pretty much p2w. I understand your point, but at the same time p2w most people think of it as buying full sets on the cash shop.

Content updates and pricing has always been done in mmos. So I see your point.

Can anyone in the thread explain why they get upset about things being "pay to win" despite many things in the world, such as other MMOs, being pay to win. I would like to get your perspective on that idea.

Ra'Shtar

You are stretching the p2w concept way too far, p2w is simply paying money and getting power ups like skill points or gear without the need of having to work in the game to get it, you can't craft julianod without spending a lot of either gold for the mats or a long damn time farming the mats. Like i said already p2w is exactly how it sound you don't get to stretch the concept by adding some weird logic that makes no sense because you have to buy the game to play it in the first place.

EnemyOfDaState

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Please debate my well reasoned argumentation if you think that I am mistaken. Ad hominems will not suffice in showing that I am mistaken (which I am not).

Pay to win means you pay to get an advantage that other people can't get without spending real money. The thing with DLC is you aren't paying for those items you are paying for the new content which happens to have those items. This is also irrelevant since you can pretty much buy anything in the game with in game gold.

Personofsecrets

Volkodav wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Please debate my well reasoned argumentation if you think that I am mistaken. Ad hominems will not suffice in showing that I am mistaken (which I am not).

Fancy words wont change the fact that you are wrong.You dont have to pay for more than the basic game to win.You'll still hit the vet levels,still get Silver and Gold,and you'll do it without special gear,etc. Tons of people do this all the time.

Some of the best sets are currently locked behind content that can only be accessed by spending money. Look at the Maelstrom stave for example. Such an item clearly gives a winning advantage to players who own it because it passively is giving them spell power and thus DPS compared to the all other things equal player who has not bought the Wrothgar DLC and therefore the right to play with such an item.