Clever alchemist vs julianos

Wild_squirtle · February 2016

Had a thought looking over the new set. I am in the process of gathering the silk for my v16 gear. Is it worth to gather it and wait for the cleaver alchemist vs the good old jlaw.

Atm i wear
5x v15 purple julianos infused with max magicka.
2x molag max magicka
3x arcane will power with magical harm
1 destro staff (working in vma staff)
2x torugs pact

I have 40k ish magicka (food)
3500 spell dmg buffed

But looking at this new set the spell dmg increase from drinking potion is quite high. Granted wont always be up, is it worth swapping over to instead of j-law? This is for both pve and pvp.

NateAssassin · February 2016

Wild_squirtle wrote: »

Had a thought looking over the new set. I am in the process of gathering the silk for my v16 gear. Is it worth to gather it and wait for the cleaver alchemist vs the good old jlaw.

Atm i wear
5x v15 purple julianos infused with max magicka.
2x molag max magicka
3x arcane will power with magical harm
1 destro staff (working in vma staff)
2x torugs pact

I have 40k ish magicka (food)
3500 spell dmg buffed

But looking at this new set the spell dmg increase from drinking potion is quite high. Granted wont always be up, is it worth swapping over to instead of j-law? This is for both pve and pvp.

Julianos and Molag Kena is all you need bby

Wild_squirtle · February 2016

I mean its hard to argue with 30-40k overload shots lol. Reasoning valid.

Brrrofski · February 2016

For pve... 5 alchemist and 2 kena, proc both before overload.. Game over.

Pvp though, I fon't think you can beat Kags still. Unless you're a get in and bust groups then run like hell magica NB, i'd go Kags on magica builds personally.

DschiPeunt · February 2016

Hmm let's compare the purple V16 versions of both sets from the PTS:
Clever Alchemist:
- 2 x 1027 max health
- 124 spell and weapon damage
- 638 spell and weapon damage for 15 seconds after drinking a potion

Julianos:
- 2 x 664 spell critical
- 1 x 933 max magicka
- 1 x 286 spell damage

Without any potion cooldown reduction, you can use a potion every 45 seconds, so the clever alchemist 5 piece bonus is up one third of the time. That gives a mean spell damage bonus from the clever alchemist of
638/3 + 124 = 336,67.

I think the usual conversion factor between magicka and spell damage is 10,45, which just means 10,45 magicka = 1 spell damage. Taking this into account, the approximated "spell damage" bonus from julianos is
933/10,45 + 286 = 375,28.

Without taking into account the crit bonus of julianos, the clever alchemist set gives the better spell damage boost in fights, that take less than 38 seconds.
Adding in the extra crit from julianos vs. the (DPS-wise useless) health bonus from clever alchemist, the time at which julianos becomes better is even lower than 38 seconds. So overall I would think, that julianos is still definitely better in PvE. In PvP clever alchemist might be interesting for small scale or duelling to get a boost for your burst DPS.

Xeven · February 2016

Wild_squirtle wrote: »

Had a thought looking over the new set. I am in the process of gathering the silk for my v16 gear. Is it worth to gather it and wait for the cleaver alchemist vs the good old jlaw.

Atm i wear
5x v15 purple julianos infused with max magicka.
2x molag max magicka
3x arcane will power with magical harm
1 destro staff (working in vma staff)
2x torugs pact

I have 40k ish magicka (food)
3500 spell dmg buffed

But looking at this new set the spell dmg increase from drinking potion is quite high. Granted wont always be up, is it worth swapping over to instead of j-law? This is for both pve and pvp.

How do you sustain in that? You can't. Whatever DPS you think you've gained by wearing literally no sustain, is lost the moment you are OOM. Is this a PvE overload build?

DschiPeunt · February 2016

Xeven wrote: »

Wild_squirtle wrote: »

Had a thought looking over the new set. I am in the process of gathering the silk for my v16 gear. Is it worth to gather it and wait for the cleaver alchemist vs the good old jlaw.

Atm i wear
5x v15 purple julianos infused with max magicka.
2x molag max magicka
3x arcane will power with magical harm
1 destro staff (working in vma staff)
2x torugs pact

I have 40k ish magicka (food)
3500 spell dmg buffed

But looking at this new set the spell dmg increase from drinking potion is quite high. Granted wont always be up, is it worth swapping over to instead of j-law? This is for both pve and pvp.

How do you sustain in that? You can't. Whatever DPS you think you've gained by wearing literally no sustain, is lost the moment you are OOM. Is this a PvE overload build?

Who needs sustain in PvE, when you have elemental drain and mystic orbs

ThatNeonZebraAgain · February 2016

Brrrofski wrote: »

For pve... 5 alchemist and 2 kena, proc both before overload.. Game over.

Pvp though, I fon't think you can beat Kags still. Unless you're a get in and bust groups then run like hell magica NB, i'd go Kags on magica builds personally.

Why is that? Better sustain and quick rezzing provides better overall utility in PvP?

eventide03b14a_ESO · February 2016

DschiPeunt wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Wild_squirtle wrote: »

Had a thought looking over the new set. I am in the process of gathering the silk for my v16 gear. Is it worth to gather it and wait for the cleaver alchemist vs the good old jlaw.

Atm i wear
5x v15 purple julianos infused with max magicka.
2x molag max magicka
3x arcane will power with magical harm
1 destro staff (working in vma staff)
2x torugs pact

I have 40k ish magicka (food)
3500 spell dmg buffed

But looking at this new set the spell dmg increase from drinking potion is quite high. Granted wont always be up, is it worth swapping over to instead of j-law? This is for both pve and pvp.

How do you sustain in that? You can't. Whatever DPS you think you've gained by wearing literally no sustain, is lost the moment you are OOM. Is this a PvE overload build?

Who needs sustain in PvE, when you have elemental drain and mystic orbs

Overload light attacks and potions go a long way towards sustain too.

J2JMC · February 2016

Xeven wrote: »

Wild_squirtle wrote: »

Had a thought looking over the new set. I am in the process of gathering the silk for my v16 gear. Is it worth to gather it and wait for the cleaver alchemist vs the good old jlaw.

Atm i wear
5x v15 purple julianos infused with max magicka.
2x molag max magicka
3x arcane will power with magical harm
1 destro staff (working in vma staff)
2x torugs pact

I have 40k ish magicka (food)
3500 spell dmg buffed

But looking at this new set the spell dmg increase from drinking potion is quite high. Granted wont always be up, is it worth swapping over to instead of j-law? This is for both pve and pvp.

How do you sustain in that? You can't. Whatever DPS you think you've gained by wearing literally no sustain, is lost the moment you are OOM. Is this a PvE overload build?

Probably runs with a healer who knows how to play the game and doesn't just spam BOL.

Wild_squirtle · February 2016

Yeah the healer I pve and pvp with keeps us stammed and magicka'd up. The sustain is as stated above ele drain regen pots orbs and overload light atacks. I can see the alchemist set in pvp by a small bit other than running kags.cause vs shields you lose the crit. So the extra straight dps will help peel the sheild. With the id imagine tho speccing into potions for duration and cd would make the overload burst unreal.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · February 2016

Xeven wrote: »

Wild_squirtle wrote: »

Had a thought looking over the new set. I am in the process of gathering the silk for my v16 gear. Is it worth to gather it and wait for the cleaver alchemist vs the good old jlaw.

Atm i wear
5x v15 purple julianos infused with max magicka.
2x molag max magicka
3x arcane will power with magical harm
1 destro staff (working in vma staff)
2x torugs pact

I have 40k ish magicka (food)
3500 spell dmg buffed

But looking at this new set the spell dmg increase from drinking potion is quite high. Granted wont always be up, is it worth swapping over to instead of j-law? This is for both pve and pvp.

How do you sustain in that? You can't. Whatever DPS you think you've gained by wearing literally no sustain, is lost the moment you are OOM. Is this a PvE overload build?

The current meta is julianos, which gives no sustain whatsoever. Swapping to the new set doesnt really change that. I dont see how sustain is a factor in this consideration. Sustain is not an issue if you have a good group. I run lightening staff on my sorc, so Kena is up 99% of time. As long as ele drain is on boss and a good portion of trash pulls, its not an issue.

For this set, the math above is correct. You are basically gaining 2 health bonuses (no DPS) and about 37 spell damage points by going with the new set. You are giving up 2 crit bonuses and a magic bonus. That is a terrible trade off. The only place it would be better is on really short fights or maybe a gank build (which is by definition, a really short fight).

ThatNeonZebraAgain · February 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Wild_squirtle wrote: »

Had a thought looking over the new set. I am in the process of gathering the silk for my v16 gear. Is it worth to gather it and wait for the cleaver alchemist vs the good old jlaw.

Atm i wear
5x v15 purple julianos infused with max magicka.
2x molag max magicka
3x arcane will power with magical harm
1 destro staff (working in vma staff)
2x torugs pact

I have 40k ish magicka (food)
3500 spell dmg buffed

But looking at this new set the spell dmg increase from drinking potion is quite high. Granted wont always be up, is it worth swapping over to instead of j-law? This is for both pve and pvp.

How do you sustain in that? You can't. Whatever DPS you think you've gained by wearing literally no sustain, is lost the moment you are OOM. Is this a PvE overload build?

The current meta is julianos, which gives no sustain whatsoever. Swapping to the new set doesnt really change that. I dont see how sustain is a factor in this consideration. Sustain is not an issue if you have a good group. I run lightening staff on my sorc, so Kena is up 99% of time. As long as ele drain is on boss and a good portion of trash pulls, its not an issue.

For this set, the math above is correct. You are basically gaining 2 health bonuses (no DPS) and about 37 spell damage points by going with the new set. You are giving up 2 crit bonuses and a magic bonus. That is a terrible trade off. The only place it would be better is on really short fights or maybe a gank build (which is by definition, a really short fight).

Good points.

However, nobody has factored in the 46-second regen buffs, crit/damage buffs, and stat replenish that the potions themselves can give. That is where the sustain and other damage could potentially be made up by trading Julianos or Kagnerac for Alchemist. However, given the set effect is 15s, and the potion cooldown is 45s (30s if you sacrifice all your jewelry enchants), it still leaves you without a sizeable chunk of damage for 1/2 or 1/3 your fight (if you can spam pot ASAP).

DschiPeunt · February 2016

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Wild_squirtle wrote: »

Had a thought looking over the new set. I am in the process of gathering the silk for my v16 gear. Is it worth to gather it and wait for the cleaver alchemist vs the good old jlaw.

Atm i wear
5x v15 purple julianos infused with max magicka.
2x molag max magicka
3x arcane will power with magical harm
1 destro staff (working in vma staff)
2x torugs pact

I have 40k ish magicka (food)
3500 spell dmg buffed

But looking at this new set the spell dmg increase from drinking potion is quite high. Granted wont always be up, is it worth swapping over to instead of j-law? This is for both pve and pvp.

How do you sustain in that? You can't. Whatever DPS you think you've gained by wearing literally no sustain, is lost the moment you are OOM. Is this a PvE overload build?

The current meta is julianos, which gives no sustain whatsoever. Swapping to the new set doesnt really change that. I dont see how sustain is a factor in this consideration. Sustain is not an issue if you have a good group. I run lightening staff on my sorc, so Kena is up 99% of time. As long as ele drain is on boss and a good portion of trash pulls, its not an issue.

For this set, the math above is correct. You are basically gaining 2 health bonuses (no DPS) and about 37 spell damage points by going with the new set. You are giving up 2 crit bonuses and a magic bonus. That is a terrible trade off. The only place it would be better is on really short fights or maybe a gank build (which is by definition, a really short fight).

Good points.

However, nobody has factored in the 46-second regen buffs, crit/damage buffs, and stat replenish that the potions themselves can give. That is where the sustain and other damage could potentially be made up by trading Julianos or Kagnerac for Alchemist. However, given the set effect is 15s, and the potion cooldown is 45s (30s if you sacrifice all your jewelry enchants), it still leaves you without a sizeable chunk of damage for 1/2 or 1/3 your fight (if you can spam pot ASAP).

But you can use the same pots while running julianos. That does not really give clever alchemist an advantage.
In fact, with clever alchemist you are forced to constantly use potions to gain the bonus. Julianos gives you the choice to run without potions, which may save you some gold.

eventide03b14a_ESO · February 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Wild_squirtle wrote: »

Had a thought looking over the new set. I am in the process of gathering the silk for my v16 gear. Is it worth to gather it and wait for the cleaver alchemist vs the good old jlaw.

Atm i wear
5x v15 purple julianos infused with max magicka.
2x molag max magicka
3x arcane will power with magical harm
1 destro staff (working in vma staff)
2x torugs pact

I have 40k ish magicka (food)
3500 spell dmg buffed

But looking at this new set the spell dmg increase from drinking potion is quite high. Granted wont always be up, is it worth swapping over to instead of j-law? This is for both pve and pvp.

How do you sustain in that? You can't. Whatever DPS you think you've gained by wearing literally no sustain, is lost the moment you are OOM. Is this a PvE overload build?

The current meta is julianos, which gives no sustain whatsoever. Swapping to the new set doesnt really change that. I dont see how sustain is a factor in this consideration. Sustain is not an issue if you have a good group. I run lightening staff on my sorc, so Kena is up 99% of time. As long as ele drain is on boss and a good portion of trash pulls, its not an issue.

For this set, the math above is correct. You are basically gaining 2 health bonuses (no DPS) and about 37 spell damage points by going with the new set. You are giving up 2 crit bonuses and a magic bonus. That is a terrible trade off. The only place it would be better is on really short fights or maybe a gank build (which is by definition, a really short fight).

This is the best answer so far.

Wild_squirtle · February 2016

If i may interject another option what about Scathing mage vs julianos?

Bossdonut · February 2016

Alchemy for pvp burning. That + kena LOL. julianos probably still better for fights longer than like 30 seconds.

Spliffo · February 2016

Do Alchemy Passives increase the duration of the Alchemist set?

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · February 2016

it should give considerable burst bonus for your ults: potion>entropy> ult>followup move with a extra few hundred more spellpower should be noticeable. and pvp is all about that right moment burst atm. but its not an average improvement so really only viable for pvp.
dont think its great as a gank build you dont often want to start with a potion, unless maybe immovable+expediate

Makkir · February 2016

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Wild_squirtle wrote: »

Had a thought looking over the new set. I am in the process of gathering the silk for my v16 gear. Is it worth to gather it and wait for the cleaver alchemist vs the good old jlaw.

Atm i wear
5x v15 purple julianos infused with max magicka.
2x molag max magicka
3x arcane will power with magical harm
1 destro staff (working in vma staff)
2x torugs pact

I have 40k ish magicka (food)
3500 spell dmg buffed

But looking at this new set the spell dmg increase from drinking potion is quite high. Granted wont always be up, is it worth swapping over to instead of j-law? This is for both pve and pvp.

How do you sustain in that? You can't. Whatever DPS you think you've gained by wearing literally no sustain, is lost the moment you are OOM. Is this a PvE overload build?

The current meta is julianos, which gives no sustain whatsoever. Swapping to the new set doesnt really change that. I dont see how sustain is a factor in this consideration. Sustain is not an issue if you have a good group. I run lightening staff on my sorc, so Kena is up 99% of time. As long as ele drain is on boss and a good portion of trash pulls, its not an issue.

For this set, the math above is correct. You are basically gaining 2 health bonuses (no DPS) and about 37 spell damage points by going with the new set. You are giving up 2 crit bonuses and a magic bonus. That is a terrible trade off. The only place it would be better is on really short fights or maybe a gank build (which is by definition, a really short fight).

This is the best answer so far.

In terms of sustain I am 99% sure Xeven is talking about PvP, not PvE. The setup posted above is pretty trashy in Cyrodiil.

Islyn · February 2016

Xeven wrote: »

Wild_squirtle wrote: »

Had a thought looking over the new set. I am in the process of gathering the silk for my v16 gear. Is it worth to gather it and wait for the cleaver alchemist vs the good old jlaw.

Atm i wear
5x v15 purple julianos infused with max magicka.
2x molag max magicka
3x arcane will power with magical harm
1 destro staff (working in vma staff)
2x torugs pact

I have 40k ish magicka (food)
3500 spell dmg buffed

But looking at this new set the spell dmg increase from drinking potion is quite high. Granted wont always be up, is it worth swapping over to instead of j-law? This is for both pve and pvp.

How do you sustain in that? You can't. Whatever DPS you think you've gained by wearing literally no sustain, is lost the moment you are OOM. Is this a PvE overload build?

and yes is for Overload. :-)

Septimus_Magna · February 2016

Julianos gives 299 spell dmg.

Alchemist gives 129 + 628 spell dmg for 15s every 45s (1/3 ratio).
On average (without alchemy enchants) this will buff your spell dmg by 628/3=209 spell dmg.
Total average spell dmg boost: 129+209=338 spell dmg.

Alchemist 338 > Julianos 299 (but only if you chuck a potion every 45s)

Xeven · February 2016

Makkir wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Wild_squirtle wrote: »

Had a thought looking over the new set. I am in the process of gathering the silk for my v16 gear. Is it worth to gather it and wait for the cleaver alchemist vs the good old jlaw.

Atm i wear
5x v15 purple julianos infused with max magicka.
2x molag max magicka
3x arcane will power with magical harm
1 destro staff (working in vma staff)
2x torugs pact

I have 40k ish magicka (food)
3500 spell dmg buffed

But looking at this new set the spell dmg increase from drinking potion is quite high. Granted wont always be up, is it worth swapping over to instead of j-law? This is for both pve and pvp.

How do you sustain in that? You can't. Whatever DPS you think you've gained by wearing literally no sustain, is lost the moment you are OOM. Is this a PvE overload build?

The current meta is julianos, which gives no sustain whatsoever. Swapping to the new set doesnt really change that. I dont see how sustain is a factor in this consideration. Sustain is not an issue if you have a good group. I run lightening staff on my sorc, so Kena is up 99% of time. As long as ele drain is on boss and a good portion of trash pulls, its not an issue.

For this set, the math above is correct. You are basically gaining 2 health bonuses (no DPS) and about 37 spell damage points by going with the new set. You are giving up 2 crit bonuses and a magic bonus. That is a terrible trade off. The only place it would be better is on really short fights or maybe a gank build (which is by definition, a really short fight).

This is the best answer so far.

In terms of sustain I am 99% sure Xeven is talking about PvP, not PvE. The setup posted above is pretty trashy in Cyrodiil.

Shhh let them wear that to Cyrodiil.

Darlon · February 2016

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Julianos gives 299 spell dmg.

Alchemist gives 129 + 628 spell dmg for 15s every 45s (1/3 ratio).
On average (without alchemy enchants) this will buff your spell dmg by 628/3=209 spell dmg.
Total average spell dmg boost: 129+209=338 spell dmg.

Alchemist 338 > Julianos 299 (but only if you chuck a potion every 45s)

You're purely looking at the spell damage...And like many others you are disregarding the other set bonusses (2,3 and 4 set bonus for the Julianos set). When including those, I would still prefer julianos

Xeven · February 2016

Darlon wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Julianos gives 299 spell dmg.

Alchemist gives 129 + 628 spell dmg for 15s every 45s (1/3 ratio).
On average (without alchemy enchants) this will buff your spell dmg by 628/3=209 spell dmg.
Total average spell dmg boost: 129+209=338 spell dmg.

Alchemist 338 > Julianos 299 (but only if you chuck a potion every 45s)

You're purely looking at the spell damage...And like many others you are disregarding the other set bonusses (2,3 and 4 set bonus for the Julianos set). When including those, I would still prefer julianos

Depends on the context. Crit in PvP isn't anywhere near as good as it is in PvE. Anyone whos any good is using impenetrable or damage shields.

oibam · February 2016

Most PvE Fights are under 20 secs...so I guess, Clever Alchemist is better for super burst. Btw you can have the full Alchemist set on 2nd bar, drink pot, swap back to main bar.

And I don't want to know what happens to your Overload LA when fully buffed with Alchemist, War Horn, SPC, Molag Kena, Pot...50k LA incoming?

Septimus_Magna · February 2016

Darlon wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Julianos gives 299 spell dmg.

Alchemist gives 129 + 628 spell dmg for 15s every 45s (1/3 ratio).
On average (without alchemy enchants) this will buff your spell dmg by 628/3=209 spell dmg.
Total average spell dmg boost: 129+209=338 spell dmg.

Alchemist 338 > Julianos 299 (but only if you chuck a potion every 45s)

You're purely looking at the spell damage...And like many others you are disregarding the other set bonusses (2,3 and 4 set bonus for the Julianos set). When including those, I would still prefer julianos

The magicka and spell crit of Julianos can also be added but its a little more complicated.

338-299=39 spell dmg.
Buffed this will be 39*1.2= 47 spell dmg

Magicka bonus is 967, this gets buffed by Gift of Magnus + Inner Light + Undaunted Mettle, 10% + 7% + 6% = 23% (more in practice depending on your CP level). 967*1.23=1189 magicka.

10 max magicka = 1 spell dmg (roughly)
1189 magicka = 119 spell dmg.

119 > 47 spell dmg, so this would be in favor of Julianos.
The added spell crit (I believe 6%) adds roughly 3% dps depending on your crit dmg modifier.

Julianos for sustained dps.
Alchemist for burst dmg.

Sharee · February 2016

Xeven wrote: »

Darlon wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Julianos gives 299 spell dmg.

Alchemist gives 129 + 628 spell dmg for 15s every 45s (1/3 ratio).
On average (without alchemy enchants) this will buff your spell dmg by 628/3=209 spell dmg.
Total average spell dmg boost: 129+209=338 spell dmg.

Alchemist 338 > Julianos 299 (but only if you chuck a potion every 45s)

You're purely looking at the spell damage...And like many others you are disregarding the other set bonusses (2,3 and 4 set bonus for the Julianos set). When including those, I would still prefer julianos

Depends on the context. Crit in PvP isn't anywhere near as good as it is in PvE. Anyone whos any good is using impenetrable or damage shields.

But maximum magicka is. That gives julianos a damage increase roughly equivalent to 90 spell damage.

Wild_squirtle · February 2016

Btw you can have the full Alchemist set on 2nd bar, drink pot, swap back to main bar.

And I don't want to know what happens to your Overload LA when fully buffed with Alchemist, War Horn, SPC, Molag Kena, Pot...50k LA incoming?

That is a very interesting thought. 3pc jewls dual weld buff bar. For a sorc my back bar would be power surge,pot,h ward, then flip to weave front bar with 5x j law and keena. Dam.. Or overload burst 50k +..

Jimozel · February 2016

5 piece craft alchemist set + 5 piece vicious death + 2 piece transmutation set ( for pvp)

full divines with atronach you can change enchant of jewels to spll dmg. (it depends your playing style)

Destruent · February 2016

Wild_squirtle wrote: »

Btw you can have the full Alchemist set on 2nd bar, drink pot, swap back to main bar.

And I don't want to know what happens to your Overload LA when fully buffed with Alchemist, War Horn, SPC, Molag Kena, Pot...50k LA incoming?

That is a very interesting thought. 3pc jewls dual weld buff bar. For a sorc my back bar would be power surge,pot,h ward, then flip to weave front bar with 5x j law and keena. Dam.. Or overload burst 50k +..

Even if you would use it this way...2pc Kena/5Julianos/2Torugs would give you more spelldmg and the same crit/magicka. It could be interesting when playing without Kena. But i doubt it will be stronger than 1pc kena/maelstrome destro (305 Spelldmg) + one random pc (+ health bonus or whatever) or 4pc Overwhelming surge (when dual wielding on mainbar, max magicka + 258 Spelldmg).

It definitely will win in Short fights when the bonus is up nearly all the time (maybe dailys, pvp). But when thinking about longer fights or even a whole trial run it will be useless.

edit: Overload already can crit for ~50k (and sometimes even more)