"I'm having a bad time, so you should have a bad time as well..."

Islyn

Makkir wrote: »

@Islyn I have actually made those same comments in previous posts about this era of instant gratification and entitlement.
I saw this since one of my children has been in elementary school and I think those who don't have kids maybe don't see how prevalent of a problem this is.

When it comes to our children, America is now about being inclusive so no one feels left out. While this may sound like a good thing, it really takes the competition out of everything and devalues hard work.

Same in UK. Then if you never have to work/put in effort to be rewarded, why put in effort?

Islyn

Taternater wrote: »

Vildebill wrote: »

Getting really tired of all the complaints after the new patch notes. Especially of the PvP:ers complaining on the decrease of alliance points towards assault and support skill lines. Same goes for the ones complaining about cheap monster set items on the new vendor everyone wanted.

What annoys me the most is that the main argument is "I grinded my ass of for my Kena helmet, it sucked, so your gaming experience should suck too if you want it", or "it took me 3 months to get magica detonation which was hell, it shouldn't take you 2 weeks". I'm having a bad time, so you should have a bad time as well. Don't you hear how you all sound? Selfish and idiotic. It took a while for me as well to get some set items, sometimes it wasn't fun at all, mainly because of RNGsus (I'm an atheist), so why would I want anybody having as bad time as i had? Don't we want the game to be fun? To evolve? To learn from mistakes?

Life will never be fair, but isn't it better if other people can learn from the crap you did? Be humble instead of selfish!

First people complain. Then people complain about people complaining. Then people complain about people complaining about people complaining. Classic forum downward spiral.

You don't sayyyyy...

MrDerrikk

My goodness, I leave this thread for the night and this is what happens?

@ZOS_AlanG can we please have this thread closed, it's so immeasurably off topic, and has descended to the point of debating religion on the previous page.

Lysette

Volkodav wrote: »

I would prefer that some things not be given away easily.Case in point,and this may seem small,but in the first days I worked hard to get the gold to buy my plain black horse.No firey feet or eyes,etc.No buying crowns. He cost me 4,2000g,and that was all I had gathered when I bought him.I did everything to get that gold ingame,and it took me a bit.Left me broke.Whenever I see anyone with that horse I know they worked to get it. Not like the other horses in the crown store.
I dont begrudge anyone anything,but if they suddenly put him in the crown store,it would diminish his worth. Anyone could just buy him without effort.
So,I can understand s ome people's thinking tregarding high level gears from trials or Maelstrom,etc.
I do w ish that people would act more like what the OP describes though.Stop all the complaining about every little thing.

With all this I am thinking about people, who do not have a lot of time to play games. For some it is a lot, if they can make about 40 h/month free for gaming. And those might like a black horse just like you, but it would take them a very long time to get to one, given their limited time to play, which they do not want to fill with grinding. Take people with a young family, they have hardly enough time to play, because they rather sleep, if they get a chance. It is clear that they rather buy a horse from the cash shop than earning it in game. And why not one, that you loved as well - see it from that side. It is not diminishing your efforts, it is just that their real life is more demanding and lets them less time to put into grinding in a game.

Volkodav

Lysette wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

I would prefer that some things not be given away easily.Case in point,and this may seem small,but in the first days I worked hard to get the gold to buy my plain black horse.No firey feet or eyes,etc.No buying crowns. He cost me 4,2000g,and that was all I had gathered when I bought him.I did everything to get that gold ingame,and it took me a bit.Left me broke.Whenever I see anyone with that horse I know they worked to get it. Not like the other horses in the crown store.
I dont begrudge anyone anything,but if they suddenly put him in the crown store,it would diminish his worth. Anyone could just buy him without effort.
So,I can understand s ome people's thinking tregarding high level gears from trials or Maelstrom,etc.
I do w ish that people would act more like what the OP describes though.Stop all the complaining about every little thing.

With all this I am thinking about people, who do not have a lot of time to play games. For some it is a lot, if they can make about 40 h/month free for gaming. And those might like a black horse just like you, but it would take them a very long time to get to one, given their limited time to play, which they do not want to fill with grinding. Take people with a young family, they have hardly enough time to play, because they rather sleep, if they get a chance. It is clear that they rather buy a horse from the cash shop than earning it in game. And why not one, that you loved as well - see it from that side. It is not diminishing your efforts, it is just that their real life is more demanding and lets them less time to put into grinding in a game.

You cant pander to any one section of people with a game like this.There are just too many players to change a game to fit a certain player type.If someone doesnt have the time to play,they just dont have the time.It doesnt mean they should be able to get everything easily,or in the crown store.
I'm not being uncaring.I am being realistic.People come into the game and get all bothered about racist things,or how things are unfair.The game is what it is,and it shouldnt have to change unless something is broken.

Vildebill

Magdalina wrote: »

Vildebill wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Well there is a bit more to that than "I'm having a bad time so everyone should too".

First, yes RNG system is atrocious, but we've been talking again and again and again about introducing tokens for dungeons which'd allow us to buy pieces we want with 100% guarantee AND give us incentive to run dungeons at the same time(except then we could be sure we wouldn't be left with nothing after 300 runs). This vendor is a bandaid, it does solve the RNG issue somewhat(doesn't solve it for sets like Spellpower Cure, if we aren't going with tokens, then please add a vendor for those too because I'm tired of getting anything BUT the pieces I need in WGT) but it 100% removes the incentive to run dungeons. The whole Undaunted pledges system is pretty much useless with prices like that, why on Earth would you run hundreds of pledges for a chance of a random set random weight random trait shoulder when you can easily buy one? Same for helmets.

Second, yes people are/will be upset because someone gets things they had to "work" for pretty much handed out for them. And this is a natural reaction. Same type of natural reaction we had when they raised level cap again and after promising us our xp would get tracked it didn't and we had to go grind again. Same type of reaction we had when they upped Undaunted skilltree from 5 to 10 giving it great passives and screwing those of us regularily running dungeons over because people who'd done 0 dungeons leveled up to Undaunted 9 in a day by doing all dungeon achievements while people like me had to slowly grind as we had no achievements left and our experience for past achievements obviously didn't get backtracked. I could go on. Should we be happy others get it easier than we do? Maybe. But in the end you just kinda start feeling discouraged when instead of feeling rewarded for playing the game and achieving something in it you kinda feel punished. It's just a game yes. But we put time in it and we like feeling rewarded, feeling like we achieve something others didn't/couldn't. We don't like feeling like we'd generally be better off game progression-wise if we started playing later and played less, that just feels unfair.

Tl;dr - less of "I had a bad time so everyone should too", more of "I want my achievements/progression to feel meaningful".

We'll have to see how it works I guess but I'm not sure I'm too fond of this idea/prices.

Of course it's bad for you in the Undaunted skill line example, it's utterly idiotic that you don't get the achievement exp retroactive. Still, the change made it easier for new players to get the undaunted skill line passives. So the change was made for the better but badly implemented for the ones that already did the grind.

In the monster helmet case, the players who grinded for the helmets won't lose anything. There was just a change made so the ones that didn't have it will get it easier. And there goes the "I had a bad time so everyone should too".

We...or *I* at least kind of feel I lost the time spent grinding dungeons when I could've just waited a couple months and bought it for the low amount of gold/AP even I(rather poor usually) have.

I know no one forced me at gunpoint to grind them of course but some of those sets are very important for certain types of gameplay(EG for tanks/PvP, Kena for dps, etc). And I didn't regret spending time there because in the end I had something to show for it and proudly say "I defeated teh RNG gods"(and yes their RNG sucks, again; it did and still does need a change...or tokens. Instead they're basically giving us a way to simply avoid it by not doing content at all). Now...I guess I kind of feel like my efforts/achievements are diminished in a way.
It probably isn't very rational because what's done is done and technically I'm not losing anything. But I do kind of feel punished for playing the game rather than simply waiting right now. It's discouraging. Like best thing I can do to progress in ESO is simply wait?
Not sure if that makes sense.

Also still mixed feelings. I still think a token system would've been SO much better but we'll have to see.

To me, what you are saying makes perfect sense. And a lot of people are obviously feels this way. I would say it's a destructive way of thinking about it though. As the master angler in this thread stated before, his achievement isn't about what others think of it, it's what he thinks of it. Something that gives oneself an inner happiness.

If you feel you made a good effort, ZOS changes can't take away that just because making things easier. If you think you were that good to beat it before it was made easier, great for you. Don't let the change take you down, be proud of what you did instead Otherwise you will only sound jaundiced or jealous.

Lysette

Volkodav wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

I would prefer that some things not be given away easily.Case in point,and this may seem small,but in the first days I worked hard to get the gold to buy my plain black horse.No firey feet or eyes,etc.No buying crowns. He cost me 4,2000g,and that was all I had gathered when I bought him.I did everything to get that gold ingame,and it took me a bit.Left me broke.Whenever I see anyone with that horse I know they worked to get it. Not like the other horses in the crown store.
I dont begrudge anyone anything,but if they suddenly put him in the crown store,it would diminish his worth. Anyone could just buy him without effort.
So,I can understand s ome people's thinking tregarding high level gears from trials or Maelstrom,etc.
I do w ish that people would act more like what the OP describes though.Stop all the complaining about every little thing.

With all this I am thinking about people, who do not have a lot of time to play games. For some it is a lot, if they can make about 40 h/month free for gaming. And those might like a black horse just like you, but it would take them a very long time to get to one, given their limited time to play, which they do not want to fill with grinding. Take people with a young family, they have hardly enough time to play, because they rather sleep, if they get a chance. It is clear that they rather buy a horse from the cash shop than earning it in game. And why not one, that you loved as well - see it from that side. It is not diminishing your efforts, it is just that their real life is more demanding and lets them less time to put into grinding in a game.

You cant pander to any one section of people with a game like this.There are just too many players to change a game to fit a certain player type.If someone doesnt have the time to play,they just dont have the time.It doesnt mean they should be able to get everything easily,or in the crown store.
I'm not being uncaring.I am being realistic.People come into the game and get all bothered about racist things,or how things are unfair.The game is what it is,and it shouldnt have to change unless something is broken.

The game is first and foremost a business - casual players pay more money to compensate their lower playtime - so this is a win-win situation - get more money, have less server load - certainly ZOS will introduce convenience items for them.

Decayed_Inside

Here we go with people calling us selfish because we think they should have to work for their stuff too. Just give them free VR16 with everything unlocked so they can get bored in a week and move on to other games. Let those of us who care to progress do it the old way. Entitled generation logic will have this game dead in no time. After all these gimme gimme changes it will be "there's nothing to do in ESO" calling it now

code65536

Vildebill wrote: »

Getting really tired of all the complaints after the new patch notes. Especially of the PvP:ers complaining on the decrease of alliance points towards assault and support skill lines. Same goes for the ones complaining about cheap monster set items on the new vendor everyone wanted.

What annoys me the most is that the main argument is "I grinded my ass of for my Kena helmet, it sucked, so your gaming experience should suck too if you want it", or "it took me 3 months to get magica detonation which was hell, it shouldn't take you 2 weeks". I'm having a bad time, so you should have a bad time as well. Don't you hear how you all sound? Selfish and idiotic. It took a while for me as well to get some set items, sometimes it wasn't fun at all, mainly because of RNGsus (I'm an atheist), so why would I want anybody having as bad time as i had? Don't we want the game to be fun? To evolve? To learn from mistakes?

Life will never be fair, but isn't it better if other people can learn from the crap you did? Be humble instead of selfish!

It's all a matter of degree. Would you be happy if everyone had everything unlocked automatically? No need to collect any lorebooks, no need to do any character leveling, etc.

When the CP catch-up mechanism was added that made CP dirt cheap for new players, did people complain? No. When the VR rank progression was reduced to just a million per rank and then again to 850K per rank, did anybody complain? No. That's because these reductions found a good balance point--the legitimate need to lessen a grind, while still maintaining meaningful progression.

Many people are in favor of the reduction in AP requirements. We're just alarmed by the extent to which they were reduced--it went from one imbalanced extreme to the opposite imbalanced extreme.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

Turelus wrote: »

There are some good posts as well, at least regarding the Alliance War skill line costs. 90% reduction is a hell of a lot, a 50% would have been pretty big but more acceptable.

We're not annoyed that we worked hard to earn it, we're concerned at just how absurdly easy it is now, it's a single night or week of PvP to get all the skills. Whilst other skill line still require a substantial commitment to get.

I really want to know which skill lines takes long to get that you can't get while doing PvP. Fighters guild? Just grind zombies for an afternoon and done. Mages guild? Get a guildie to port you all over and use an addon to get all the lorebooks, doesn't take that long either. Undaunted? Get a good group, faceroll a bunch of dungeons for the achievements and watch the undaunted exp go up super fast

Now alliance war on live? Doesn't matter how you do it, still takes months upon months to get the skill lines maxed. So don't really see a problem with the lowered exp needed for the alliance war skills

code65536

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

There are some good posts as well, at least regarding the Alliance War skill line costs. 90% reduction is a hell of a lot, a 50% would have been pretty big but more acceptable.

We're not annoyed that we worked hard to earn it, we're concerned at just how absurdly easy it is now, it's a single night or week of PvP to get all the skills. Whilst other skill line still require a substantial commitment to get.

I really want to know which skill lines takes long to get that you can't get while doing PvP. Fighters guild? Just grind zombies for an afternoon and done. Mages guild? Get a guildie to port you all over and use an addon to get all the lorebooks, doesn't take that long either. Undaunted? Get a good group, faceroll a bunch of dungeons for the achievements and watch the undaunted exp go up super fast

Now alliance war on live? Doesn't matter how you do it, still takes months upon months to get the skill lines maxed. So don't really see a problem with the lowered exp needed for the alliance war skills

You don't fix the problem of an extreme (and I agree that maxing out Assault/Support did require an inordinate amount of effort--and very few people disagree with that) by swinging all the way to the other extreme.

Also, people care about maxing out Fighter's Guild for Dawnbreaker, Mage's Guild (which is very hard to max out if you don't have the Lorebooks addon) for Meteor, and Undaunted for the 5/1/1 passive. These are all things at the end of those skill trees that everyone--PvEers and PvPers alike--care about. For PvEer's, the Assault/Support ranks after 7 don't matter because those are passives that are relevant only for PvP (e.g., rez speed while in Cyrodiil).

So the better comparison would be getting Undaunted to 9 vs. getting Assault/Support to 7. And here, A/S 7 on the PTS is absurdly easy to get compared to Undaunted 9. I've run the dungeons hundreds of times (I have over 400 unused Undaunted keys on my characters--not counting the hundreds I've spent); I can usually put a group together very quickly and breeze through both daily pledges in under an hour. But despite that, it will still take weeks to get a new alt to Undaunted 9 because completing all the group dungeons won't get you to Undaunted 9--you need the pledges to level it the rest of the way, and the last time I took a character to Undaunted 9, it took about a couple of weeks of doing both pledges. That's an hour a day. Well, an hour a day for me. Most people struggle to find a good group--spamming LFG in zone for an hour to no avail--and often end up in a PUG that either wipes out or takes an hour to clear just one pledge.

So, yes, compared to Undaunted 9 or Mage's Guild 10 without addons, A/S 7 on PTS right now is a bloody joke. Yes, I agree that the previous cost of 1.6M was way too high, but solving one extreme by jumping to the opposite extreme is just stupid.