There won't be any real class balance until ...

SirAndy

There won't be any real class balance until the devs bite the bullet and introduce a 4th resource dedicated to dodge/block/sprint.

It seems that with every major update the fragile balance is broken again and the scale tips to one side (stamina) or the other (magicka).
ZOS has tried to balance the two since the beginning but nothing has ever felt solid in terms of balance.

I always fear we're only one update away from everyone in Cyrodiil having to wear a dress again ...



By adding a 4th resource, ZOS would be able to truly balance stamina and magicka skills without having to try and factor dodge/block/sprint into the equations.

Bossdonut

Or until the lead dev plays something other than a nightblade

SirAndy

Bossdonut wrote: »

Or until the lead dev plays something other than a nightblade

That just goes back to the root of the problem.

One side (magicka) has a pool dedicated to their skills while the other side (stamina) has a pool that is shared with dodge/block/sprint.
So in order to balance the skills, one has to bolster stamina for stamina users to try to make up for the shared resource.

The problem is, that will never ever work well. It's always going to be a band-aid.
The lead devs favoring stamina builds is the only reason we even have any sort of viable stamina builds now, but as i said above, it's fragile.

Anyone remember what Cyrodiil looked like two years ago?
Play anything you want as long as you wear a pretty dress and wave a wooden stick.

khele23eb17_ESO

Or rename magicka to action points and make all skills use it as a resource leaving stamina for sprint/dodge/block. But they wont do either because the skyrim crybabies would throw hissy fit.

Mivryna

What if blocked spells drain Magicka instead of Stamina?

SirAndy

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Or rename magicka to action points and make all skills use it as a resource leaving stamina for sprint/dodge/block.

Umbranox wrote: »

What if blocked spells drain Magicka instead of Stamina?

Both of those suggestions would certainly make things better than they are right now.

Getting rid of magicka would probably result in an uproar though.

Artjuh90

Bossdonut wrote: »

Or until the lead dev plays something other than a nightblade

lol magicka sorc is the class 2 be not NB xd

Artjuh90

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Or rename magicka to action points and make all skills use it as a resource leaving stamina for sprint/dodge/block. But they wont do either because the skyrim crybabies would throw hissy fit.

then you would have steel tornado proq det sorc ruling the world you are aware of this xD

AddictionX

I would love to see a bar for dodging rolling and sprinting! the game Raiderz made good use of that mechanic

khele23eb17_ESO

Artjuh90 wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Or rename magicka to action points and make all skills use it as a resource leaving stamina for sprint/dodge/block. But they wont do either because the skyrim crybabies would throw hissy fit.

then you would have steel tornado proq det sorc ruling the world you are aware of this xD

Obviously theyd have to rebalance things. Optimally it should have been designed and balanced like this from the start. Not going to happen now.

DangerMan

Yes, I completely agree. They need to have a separate pool for dodging, running, etc.. This new pool can be named something else (power, agility, etc etc).

Sempars

no problem is some skills damage is based of MAX Magika or Stamina. But idk how else they could come up with a # if they got rid of that. You would start seeing more people using a mix of Stam and Magika builds

DangerMan

Sempars wrote: »

no problem is some skills damage is based of MAX Magika or Stamina. But idk how else they could come up with a # if they got rid of that. You would start seeing more people using a mix of Stam and Magika builds

They could still keep Stamina and Magicka as the main pools.. All they need is to have a new pool named something else which is used for rolling, sprinting, stealthing, etc etc

gw2only1b14_ESO

SirAndy wrote: »

There won't be any real class balance until the devs bite the bullet and introduce a 4th resource dedicated to dodge/block/sprint.

It seems that with every major update the fragile balance is broken again and the scale tips to one side (stamina) or the other (magicka).
ZOS has tried to balance the two since the beginning but nothing has ever felt solid in terms of balance.

I always fear we're only one update away from everyone in Cyrodiil having to wear a dress again ...



By adding a 4th resource, ZOS would be able to truly balance stamina and magicka skills without having to try and factor dodge/block/sprint into the equations.

Until they scrap champ points and then can get true numbers values...

But thats not gonna happen so go FOTM or find another game on Horizon

DHale

I don't agree and think that break free and dodge roll and block and sprint have little to do with class balance. That is what the cp system is for.

czar

or just get rid of classes.

Rune_Relic

SirAndy wrote: »

There won't be any real class balance until the devs bite the bullet and introduce a 4th resource dedicated to dodge/block/sprint.

It seems that with every major update the fragile balance is broken again and the scale tips to one side (stamina) or the other (magicka).
ZOS has tried to balance the two since the beginning but nothing has ever felt solid in terms of balance.

I always fear we're only one update away from everyone in Cyrodiil having to wear a dress again ...



By adding a 4th resource, ZOS would be able to truly balance stamina and magicka skills without having to try and factor dodge/block/sprint into the equations.

Agreed. My offering....

Magicka version of block (ward)
Magicka version of Dodge (teleport)
Magicka verison of sneak (cloak)
Magicka version of sprint/move (levitate/drift)

Depending on which resource is the currently greatest... you either see magicka versions that cost magicka or stamina versions that cost stamina.
This also open the door to stamin/magicka hybirds using combined stamina/magicka for damage scaling.
But with part physical damage and part magical damage.

Weapons could change form from corporeal to epheric with stamina/magicka bias.

EDIT
I think a 4th resource for healing is much more needed.
This can be achieved through unused attribute points.
White light as opposed to red, green, blue.

Armour is weapon & spell resist
Shield could be physical & spell resist...BUT biased by stamina/magicka ratio (part magicka / part stamina cost).

Artjuh90

Rune_Relic wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

There won't be any real class balance until the devs bite the bullet and introduce a 4th resource dedicated to dodge/block/sprint.

It seems that with every major update the fragile balance is broken again and the scale tips to one side (stamina) or the other (magicka).
ZOS has tried to balance the two since the beginning but nothing has ever felt solid in terms of balance.

I always fear we're only one update away from everyone in Cyrodiil having to wear a dress again ...



By adding a 4th resource, ZOS would be able to truly balance stamina and magicka skills without having to try and factor dodge/block/sprint into the equations.

Agreed. My offering....

Magicka version of block (ward)
Magicka version of Dodge (teleport)
Magicka verison of sneak (cloak)
Magicka version of sprint/move (levitate/drift)

Depending on which resource is the currently greatest... you either see magicka versions that cost magicka or stamina versions that cost stamina.
This also open the door to stamin/magicka hybirds using combined stamina/magicka for damage scaling.
But with part physical damage and part magical damage.

magicka version of block -> shieldstacking sorc tank new mata to go in the DB dlc if they keep these kind of changes up
magicka version of dodge -> streak
magicka version of sneak -> will remove any edge a stamina play has left over magicka
magicka version of sprint not that necesary really. when i play magicka build i tend to sprint more

Lightninvash

Anilahation

SirAndy wrote: »

Bossdonut wrote: »

Or until the lead dev plays something other than a nightblade

That just goes back to the root of the problem.

One side (magicka) has a pool dedicated to their skills while the other side (stamina) has a pool that is shared with dodge/block/sprint.
So in order to balance the skills, one has to bolster stamina for stamina users to try to make up for the shared resource.

The problem is, that will never ever work well. It's always going to be a band-aid.
The lead devs favoring stamina builds is the only reason we even have any sort of viable stamina builds now, but as i said above, it's fragile.

Anyone remember what Cyrodiil looked like two years ago?
Play anything you want as long as you wear a pretty dress and wave a wooden stick.

Or we add a magical block/Sprint/crouch/dodge.

problem solved.

Rune_Relic

Artjuh90 wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

There won't be any real class balance until the devs bite the bullet and introduce a 4th resource dedicated to dodge/block/sprint.

It seems that with every major update the fragile balance is broken again and the scale tips to one side (stamina) or the other (magicka).
ZOS has tried to balance the two since the beginning but nothing has ever felt solid in terms of balance.

I always fear we're only one update away from everyone in Cyrodiil having to wear a dress again ...



By adding a 4th resource, ZOS would be able to truly balance stamina and magicka skills without having to try and factor dodge/block/sprint into the equations.

Agreed. My offering....

Magicka version of block (ward)
Magicka version of Dodge (teleport)
Magicka verison of sneak (cloak)
Magicka version of sprint/move (levitate/drift)

Depending on which resource is the currently greatest... you either see magicka versions that cost magicka or stamina versions that cost stamina.
This also open the door to stamin/magicka hybirds using combined stamina/magicka for damage scaling.
But with part physical damage and part magical damage.

magicka version of block -> shieldstacking sorc tank new mata to go in the DB dlc if they keep these kind of changes up
magicka version of dodge -> streak
magicka version of sneak -> will remove any edge a stamina play has left over magicka
magicka version of sprint not that necesary really. when i play magicka build i tend to sprint more

Well yes shield stacking is an issue that can be resolved. Sorcs will need a good alternative.
Teleport/Streak...Again sorcs could be given an alternative. They don't lose the ability it becomes generic for magic use.
NB Cloak..always the crux of all nerf threads...made generic. NB will need a good altenrative but they don't lose it. Its generic.
Sprinting costs stamina. A true mage has no need for such physical inconvenience

SirAndy

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

Or we add a magical block/Sprint/crouch/dodge.
problem solved.

I think that would discourage hybrid builds.

A 4th resource should in theory give people more options to run hybrid builds. And diversity is generally a good thing.

Jasli

Make Block, Dodge Roll, Sprint cost whatever the prevalent resource is be it Stam or magicka. Go a step further and make magicka blocking a force field type thing, and dodge roll a phase of some sort. This way those costs always come out of whatever stat pool your character is based off of.

Morozov

SirAndy wrote: »

Bossdonut wrote: »

Or until the lead dev plays something other than a nightblade

That just goes back to the root of the problem.

One side (magicka) has a pool dedicated to their skills while the other side (stamina) has a pool that is shared with dodge/block/sprint.
So in order to balance the skills, one has to bolster stamina for stamina users to try to make up for the shared resource.

The problem is, that will never ever work well. It's always going to be a band-aid.
The lead devs favoring stamina builds is the only reason we even have any sort of viable stamina builds now, but as i said above, it's fragile.

Anyone remember what Cyrodiil looked like two years ago?
Play anything you want as long as you wear a pretty dress and wave a wooden stick.

so is it not enough of a balance as it is? stamina users use up their main resource to do damage if they dodge, sprint or block....magicka users don't have a large pool so their survivability is hindered in terms of how much they can dodge or block. So mag users use up their main DPS stat for survivability...

same same....but diffreeent....but still same

SirAndy

Morozov wrote: »

so is it not enough of a balance as it is?

No really.

Some weeks are better than others but those of us who have been here since launch (or beta for that matter) have seen way too many updates that broke the fragile balance and heavily favored one side or the other until ZOS found a tweak to make it better (or worse) for a while.

Balancing classes would be much easier if we had:

- Health for being alive
- Magicka for magic based skills
- Stamina for stamina based skills
- Agility(?) for dodge/roll/block/sprint

Pheefs

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Or rename magicka to action points and make all skills use it as a resource leaving stamina for sprint/dodge/block. But they wont do either because the skyrim crybabies would throw hissy fit.

or MAYBE...
...they won't do that because this is Elder Scrolls Online we are playing, and its called MAGICKA.


& I'm not saying the skills costs & allotments is perfect, but its funny how your idea to "save" your play-style is to destroy mine.

khele23eb17_ESO

Pheefs wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Or rename magicka to action points and make all skills use it as a resource leaving stamina for sprint/dodge/block. But they wont do either because the skyrim crybabies would throw hissy fit.

or MAYBE...
...they won't do that because this is Elder Scrolls Online we are playing, and its called MAGICKA.


& I'm not saying the skills costs & allotments is perfect, but its funny how your idea to "save" your play-style is to destroy mine.

Your playstyle is destroyed by renaming a resource pool?

Anyway, Id be perfectly happy with any of these:
- all skills using magicka (call it energy or action points), stamina being used for sprint/dodge/block
- adding a 4th resource pool for spring/dodge/block
- adding magicka based equivalents of spring/dodge/block and having a morphable passive which lets you choose which resource you want to use for utility actions.

WalkingLegacy

Damn OP,

I've never thought of this issue much until you pointed it out.

It is pretty ridiculous to split a combat resource with sprinting and dodge rolls while leaving the other resources free for just combat. Bad devs gonna badly dev.

Artjuh90

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

Damn OP,

I've never thought of this issue much until you pointed it out.

It is pretty ridiculous to split a combat resource with sprinting and dodge rolls while leaving the other resources free for just combat. Bad devs gonna badly dev.

it wasn't that mutch of an issue before they nerfed regen while blocking and the dodge roll nerf.
do i agree stam cost was to low? yes.
did they go over the top with it? yes

Robbmrp

The easier fix would be to change ALL Skills to use and scale off magicka. This would then leave Stamina for Dodge, Sprint, Block, light and heavy attacks. With removing Stamina from all Skill costs, all classes would be balanced as far as resource management goes. All Classes would have dedicated magicka pools for all their skills, the exact same way current magicka builds are.

Artjuh90

Robbmrp wrote: »

The easier fix would be to change ALL Skills to use and scale off magicka. This would then leave Stamina for Dodge, Sprint, Block, light and heavy attacks. With removing Stamina from all Skill costs, all classes would be balanced as far as resource management goes. All Classes would have dedicated magicka pools for all their skills, the exact same way current magicka builds are.

just a No to this. as i stated before this will make even less builds viable and you will see even more AOE spamm. do you really want shield stacking proq det steel tornado magicka sorcs?
+ stamina build can be put in the trashcan where they can keep the templar company