Limiting the Zerg - Channeled AOE Skills

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Ferretstalker
Ferretstalker
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I've searched high and low and haven't seen anyone mention this before, which means it's either a very original idea or so outlandish no one but myself could be so silly.

In every other MMO I've played, AOE attacks are something amazing. Typically earned midway through levelling, they're a unique kind of attack meant to burn down large groups of trash mobs in PvE. In PvP, they tend to direct the flow of battle by sealing choke points, cutting off escape routes, and directing enemy movements from afar - thus making it easier for melee classes to keep their enemies in close proximity. For healers, it means creating a safe haven, a sort of field aid for players to retreat and heal up before jumping back into the fray.

In ESO, AOE attacks are the exact opposite. They're easily spammable, and are the go-to skills of choice for group PvP. With AOE heals atop damaging skills, ESO's PvP game largely becomes a matter of numbers, relying on sheer quantity of AOE placement to override (arbitrary?) AOE caps and burn down the opposition at close ranges. This is insane, as it not only nerfs the usefulness of single-target attacks, but it also produces a PvP environment that goes against all the marketing material and the general appeal the game is trying to sell.

Remember how epic this trailer looked?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-3GAT0UWzc

Instead, we have what we have now.

I read your title, get to it already

Right.

My idea is to make all AOE skills "channeled" in order to slow the flow of battle, increase the viability of single-target attacks in large-scale PvP, and establish a more immersive and realistic battlefield environment. When channeling AOE abilities, you'll have mobility reduced in the same way that Crystal Shard (Fragments, let's be honest Blast is in the past) reduces mobility during its cast time. Limited to a walking pace, players will have to choose between maintaining mobility on the battlefield and attacking multiple targets at once, a fair compromise that rewards clever decision making in the heat of battle.

For persistent ground-targeted AOE attacks, such as Lightning Splash, Volley, and Grand Healing, the channel should last as long as the skill is applied to the ground, meaning players will have to wait out the AOE or cancel it to resume their movement. For self-target AOE attacks and buffs, such as Whirlwind, Vigor, or various shields, the player should have their movement reduced for 1 second, which would make diving into an enemy group a tactical decision and one that cannot be immediately reversed.

What will this do to zergs? The whole meta should be upheaved, which is not necessarily a bad thing. Large groups will no longer be able to burn through another group through sheer numbers alone, and will need to pick their targets and coordinate effectively to burn through another group at a good pace. Zerg v zerg battles would no longer rely on which side has more people, but on which side has more skilled people, as battles would become a much more intimate affair. Abilities like Steel Tornado would also retain their usefulness in a zerg v zerg setting, but would significantly slow down the speed at which the zerg can move, making it easier for players to organize counter-attacks and could potentially reduce lagging in some situations (the only thing worse than a lot of people in one space is a lot of people moving very fast through many spaces). Zergs would also, in theory, spread out more as players try and flank their targets and engage individual opponents.

What about PvE? Admittedly, I am not the most knowledgeable when it comes to PvE, being more of a casual dungeon-raider, so my changes don't particularly touch on the subject. If someone more versed in the PvE scene would like to discuss the impact such a system would have, it would be welcomed. However, from my general experience with PvE, players do not need to rely on as much mobility when they are casting AOE spells, mainly burning adds stacked on a tank or healing a group. If such mobility were needed, cancelling channels and repositioning would become required. Again, I'm barely a casual as it is, so I'd prefer not to dig to deep into it.

Are you done yet?

Yes. Feel free to tell me why I'm wrong and, more appropriately, educate me and help build off the idea in case changes to the meta are something you would like to see.


YOUR THOUGHTS


Faulgor wrote: »
Personally I prefer cast times over channels. Would also add another layer to group PvP where you have to take out the caster in the back before he finishes his devastating AoE spell. Also makes more sense to me for ground-based AoEs like Fire Rune/Arrow Barrage/Liquid Lightning/etc.

But the analysis is absolutely correct. AoEs and single target skills are totally mismatched in ESO.

-When you say it like that, I'm actually inclined to agree with you regarding the cast times vs channeling. Cast times are already implemented in the game and would fit with the general theme and design we have going over introducing a channeling mechanic to targeted spells, and would probably be easier when calculating damage ticks.
Edited by Ferretstalker on January 30, 2016 8:24AM
  • DovresMalven
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    Sounds like an awesome idea to me. Of course PvEers would throw a fit and so it'll likely be roasted here momentarily.
    Dovres Malven
    - Aldmeri Dominion
  • lolo_01b16_ESO
    lolo_01b16_ESO
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    Sounds horrible. Remember that you can neither block nor dodge while channeling a skill. This would mean tanks wouldn't be able to use skills like Talons, Inhale, Sap essence, Blazing shield, lightning form or vigor.
  • DovresMalven
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    Sounds horrible. Remember that you can neither block nor dodge while channeling a skill. This would mean tanks wouldn't be able to use skills like Talons, Inhale, Sap essence, Blazing shield, lightning form or vigor.

    They could simply add a damage reduction buff while channeling those tanky skills, right? The mobility aspect of OPs idea is what could really add a breath of fresh air to Cyrodiil. You raise a valid concern when it comes to tanking, but really most endgame raiders burn down AOE mobs in seconds. I think there may be some holes in the idea still, but it's something worth exploring and developing.
    Dovres Malven
    - Aldmeri Dominion
  • Ferretstalker
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    Sounds horrible. Remember that you can neither block nor dodge while channeling a skill. This would mean tanks wouldn't be able to use skills like Talons, Inhale, Sap essence, Blazing shield, lightning form or vigor.

    I realize my wording was a little off (and I'll edit for clarification), but literal channeling would only apply to persistent ground-targeted AOE attacks like Caltrops, Volley etc. Skills cast on self would only reduce movement speed when cast, similar to how Crystal Shard reduces speed. As Talons, Inhale, and Sap, shields, and Vigor are not targetable and rely on you being close to the enemy/allies, they should not interrupt your ability to block, similar to how I reasoned Steel Tornado would operate.
  • lolo_01b16_ESO
    lolo_01b16_ESO
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    I realize my wording was a little off (and I'll edit for clarification), but literal channeling would only apply to persistent ground-targeted AOE attacks like Caltrops, Volley etc. Skills cast on self would only reduce movement speed when cast, similar to how Crystal Shard reduces speed. As Talons, Inhale, and Sap, shields, and Vigor are not targetable and rely on you being close to the enemy/allies, they should not interrupt your ability to block, similar to how I reasoned Steel Tornado would operate.
    Ah ok, in that case I don't see many negative effects for pve. It might be a bit tricky to reapply eruption in some fights, but in general tanks should be fine. And the movement speed decrease doesn't matter much for anyone since most encounters are stationary anyway.
  • Faulgor
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    Personally I prefer cast times over channels. Would also add another layer to group PvP where you have to take out the caster in the back before he finishes his devastating AoE spell. Also makes more sense to me for ground-based AoEs like Fire Rune/Arrow Barrage/Liquid Lightning/etc.

    But the analysis is absolutely correct. AoEs and single target skills are totally mismatched in ESO.
    Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
    Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.
  • Ferretstalker
    Ferretstalker
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    Faulgor wrote: »
    Personally I prefer cast times over channels. Would also add another layer to group PvP where you have to take out the caster in the back before he finishes his devastating AoE spell. Also makes more sense to me for ground-based AoEs like Fire Rune/Arrow Barrage/Liquid Lightning/etc.

    But the analysis is absolutely correct. AoEs and single target skills are totally mismatched in ESO.

    When you say it like that, I'm actually inclined to agree with you regarding the cast times vs channeling. Cast times are already implemented in the game and would fit with the general theme and design we have going over introducing a channeling mechanic to targeted spells, and would probably be easier when calculating damage ticks.

    I'll actually add this to the OP at the bottom. Thanks for replying!
  • dday3six
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    Channeled or cast time AOEs pretty much screw PVE, it would make a lot of encounters much more difficult. Think about Maelstrom Arena for example. Without or with slower to deal damage AOEs many builds will struggle even more to complete it than they already do. Any Boss fight with heavy add components like Paxton in Spindleclutch Vet, or worse yet the Overfiend in ICP would suddenly be harder to get through because adds continue to build in those fights, and if not dealt with quick enough. Adds can easily overwhelm groups.

    PVE and PVP are intertwined, how changes to one will effect the other need to be taken into consideration. Personally I wish they were separated so balancing the two would much easier.

    In my opinion the only real answer to zerging is to limit numbers. The best way to do this is just to create arenas with smaller scale, instanced, and objective based PVP. Even before players have access to the best zerging skills, say in BWB, they still cluster together in zergs, and just single target players down by simply having more numbers than the opposing force. Due to the scope of PVP in Cyrodiil it's safety in numbers that most player seek in zergs, and ultimately even if AOEs completely removed. Many players would continue to roll in large groups.
  • Alucardo
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    I want that Ice ground AoE that the Xivkyn Hammerfist uses. They generally plant that, then a negate on top and pop thundering presence. I want that crap on my stam sorc man. That ice AoE sticks for a while and does a decent amount of damage.
  • eliisra
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    If using AoE will auto snare you, than people wont be able to use it.

    But you cant take out a 30-50 man horde of enemies with single target abilities. Large scale battles would never end. Force flipping keeps would be a thing, since no one is dying.

    Single target v.s zerg is only viable in other games because bulletproof(brain dead) target systems. You have target macros, target assist windows in the group/raid and simliar tools. If someone calls a target, everyone gets it instantly with a keystroke and that enemy is instadead.

    In ESO you cant burn one by one that effectively in large combat. If leader calls a target you have to manually and visually try to locate that enemy hiding behind a bunch of others. Than find the angle or position where you actually hit him and not the guys standing in front or on top. While you're busy with that half a dozen more enemies gets revived or arrives to the location.

    Target system here is more skill based but also clunky and unreliable. You can only focus down players quick and effectively with ST in small- to medium scale fights.

    If we want to get away from mashing AoE, the solution is creating a PvP environment that rewards small- to medium scale combat. That penalized stacking numbers. Ruining AoE in both PvP and PvE is not the way to go.
  • Joy_Division
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    It would be easiest just to get rid of AoE caps rather than overhaul game mechanics.

    I know what you are trying to do here an I admire your spirit, but I do not think it will work out as you believe it will. Your proposal would make using AoEs more difficult and dangerous, but does nothing to dissuade groups from stacking on crown of punish guilds that stack. If I am facing a ball group of 24, under this system I'd have to either try and pick them off one by one (impossible) or put myself in a defenseless state channeling an AoE at them (which means I am going to die). The group would still derive a lot of protection from the AoE caps and 24 people spamming strong single target abilities is still a force to be reckoned with.

    Inevitable det has exactly these sort of mechanics. When it came out, I originally tried to use it as the developers intended,i.e. target the zergs. Half the time, I'd get CC'd and insta-killed by the pain train due to the cast time. So most people have stopped trying to use the "zerg-buster" skill to bust zergs and instead inevitable det has become a single target skill that sorcerers use to defeat reflect and time their burst.

    To punish zerg-play, I think it is best to think of ways to make stacking on crown dangerous, rather than try to limit the zerg's offensive potential because when you do that, you also harm the non-zergling's offensive potential and fail to create the balance you seek. Getting rid of AoE caps would be a good place to start because organized groups benefit from them much more than anyone else.
  • Lucky28
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    I don't think that would be a very good idea. I mean if you think about it that change would literally kill small group and solo pvp. if you're in a say a 1v3 or even 1v2 the '1' wouldn't be able to use AOE otherwise they'd screw themselves.

    this would be a change that would favor the large groups that can afford to be snared and be detrimental to the small group solo players who cannot afford such. so i'm gonna have to say, no.
    Edited by Lucky28 on January 31, 2016 1:02AM
    Invictus
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