BlackWater Blade damage

Yasha

TDLR: I am hitting for about 2,500 with my major attacks/finishers, but I am getting hit by 11K wrecking blows, etc. BB is meant to be an equalized/normalized pvp area, so why is there such a huge difference in power?

Its like there are two types of players in BB- one type is totally OP can tank a whole group of weak (normal) toons' focus fire and 100-0 players in one rotation. The other pokes away with 250 damage light attacks and 1,000 damage abilities and melts instantly when an OP toon hits them. I can understand this happening in the Vet campaigns where gear and levels are meant to provide a difference, but why is this happening in BB? It's mind boggling.

Asmael

For short:
- Stacking spell power / weapon damage
- Stacking max magicka / stamina (10.5 stamina ~= 1 weapon damage)
- Using Sharpened (%penetration)
- CPs (+ max stats, +%flat damage, +%flat penetration)
- Set bonuses (hundings, julianos... goes with the first point)
- Buffing up (Rally / Flying blade / ...)
- Quality gear (minimum blue, probably purple, in some rare cases, gold) kept up to date
- Min / maxing with all the above
- Class knowledge
- ... and having a target with low armor, bad quality gear, no buffing up armor, under the effect of major penetration (Piercing Mark, Surprise Attack...), no Impen on gear, etc etc etc

Kwivur

Asmael wrote: »

For short:
- Stacking spell power / weapon damage
- Stacking max magicka / stamina (10.5 stamina ~= 1 weapon damage)
- Using Sharpened (%penetration)
- CPs (+ max stats, +%flat damage, +%flat penetration)
- Set bonuses (hundings, julianos... goes with the first point)
- Buffing up (Rally / Flying blade / ...)
- Quality gear (minimum blue, probably purple, in some rare cases, gold) kept up to date
- Min / maxing with all the above
- Class knowledge
- ... and having a target with low armor, bad quality gear, no buffing up armor, under the effect of major penetration (Piercing Mark, Surprise Attack...), no Impen on gear, etc etc etc

That and you should pop a L2P pot.

Docmandu

Yasha wrote: »

TDLR: I am hitting for about 2,500 with my major attacks/finishers, but I am getting hit by 11K wrecking blows, etc. BB is meant to be an equalized/normalized pvp area, so why is there such a huge difference in power?

Its like there are two types of players in BB- one type is totally OP can tank a whole group of weak (normal) toons' focus fire and 100-0 players in one rotation. The other pokes away with 250 damage light attacks and 1,000 damage abilities and melts instantly when an OP toon hits them. I can understand this happening in the Vet campaigns where gear and levels are meant to provide a difference, but why is this happening in BB? It's mind boggling.

Because one is an NB, the other isn't ?!

Anyway.. new battle levelling wrecked BWB.. it scales quite poorly if your gear isn't exactly your level.. so unless you craft a new set of purples each level, you will be suffering... add CP to that and you see where the damage comes from. (25% extra damage is stupid, even in vet pvp)

bikerangelo

You need more crit.

With everyone and their guar running crit builds with so few in BWB running inpenetrable traits on their gear, it makes sense that this is happening. BWB has become a stomping ground for players with max cp and full set gear, making it incredibly difficult to find "even" fights. Stack as much damage and crit as possible for high burst dps, that's all that matters in the game now.

josh.lackey_ESO

Docmandu wrote: »

Anyway.. new battle levelling wrecked BWB.. it scales quite poorly if your gear isn't exactly your level.. so unless you craft a new set of purples each level, you will be suffering... add CP to that and you see where the damage comes from. (25% extra damage is stupid, even in vet pvp)

Exactly this. Purple gear at your level make a huge difference. But you have to be reasonably wealthy in-game to have that advantage. Certain levels are also sweet spots, when you can find dropped sets to mix with crafted sets.

About Wrecking Blow: that's a problem in general. You can add 25% physical damage with the Mighty CP, but the only counter is a 13% bonus physical resist from Armor Focus. If you're doing magic damage, you can also add 25% with Thaumaturge, but Hardy gives a flat 25% damage reduction, as well as Spell Shield for 25% spell resist bonus. Physical damage is pretty OP right now. That's why so many people run around spamming Wrecking Blow.

The current meta in BwB seems to be stam DK -- I can't tell you how sick I am of seeing variations of "leap" in names -- and they also have Magma Armor, which caps incoming damage at 3% of their max health. I don't know how often it's being used, but I have contended myself with a "maybe they popped magma armor" explanation for a number of wtf moments.

cschwingeb14_ESO

Corrosive armor provides 100% physical penetration, right?

On PC, purple tempers are pretty cheap for light, medium and wood (around 120 each). For metals that goes up to about 350g each. Considering that it costs about 1k to get a piece of armor crafted, shell out the extra 500 to get it upgraded to purple

Yasha

Thanks for all the detailed responses. I had an in depth discussion on BB last April here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/166062/blackwater-blade-and-stats#latest

And when I got my head around those points I was able to do ok, but coming back to play again recently everything feels quite different. I don't remember getting hit for so much damage in the past and my attacks seemed to be doing a lot more damage (for example now light attacks are about 250 damage, back then they were doing around 700).

Some of the comments above suggest that having gear of appropriate level is now important in BB and that damage etc is effected by max stamina/magicka, which I am pretty sure is different to last April (it made no difference if I wore level 1 gear on a level 40 toon, except for some enchants).

Last year it seemed to me that full light (for sustain) or perhaps medium armor was the way to go because magicka based abilities seemed to do more damage and you got great sustain with the same level of armor (like a DK in robes with fire staff), but now you are saying stam is the way to go - so have they changed the way weapon damage/stamina scales in BB?

Alucardo

Yasha wrote: »

so have they changed the way weapon damage/stamina scales in BB?

With the Orsinium release battle levelling got a major overhaul. Pre-orsinium it was very hard to exceed 1900 weapon damage, now people in non-vet can get over 4k. This is because every set item, every jewellery piece, every item quality, basically everything constitutes towards your final stats. So you can max them out just like a true VR15 would.
The downside to this is, every time you level and don't upgrade your gear you lose stats. Your damage will become weaker and your resistance, so you'll be getting hit harder and dealing less damage the more you ignore your gear.

Blackwater Blade has turned into a mini-vet, with everyone trying to pump out as much damage as possible. CPs play a pretty big factor. If you have no CPs and you fight someone who is at the cap, they will be dealing an extra 25% damage and resisting a lot of yours. The good news is, CPs are being removed from the nonvet campaign in the next major update, so the only thing you'll have to worry about is gear and skill.

Stam isn't necessarily the way to go. Just upgrade your stuff and walk through their wrecking blows. WB spammers are easy to beat, unless you just stand there like a potato.

Yasha

Alucardo wrote: »

Yasha wrote: »

so have they changed the way weapon damage/stamina scales in BB?

With the Orsinium release battle levelling got a major overhaul. Pre-orsinium it was very hard to exceed 1900 weapon damage, now people in non-vet can get over 4k. This is because every set item, every jewellery piece, every item quality, basically everything constitutes towards your final stats. So you can max them out just like a true VR15 would.
The downside to this is, every time you level and don't upgrade your gear you lose stats. Your damage will become weaker and your resistance, so you'll be getting hit harder and dealing less damage the more you ignore your gear.

Blackwater Blade has turned into a mini-vet, with everyone trying to pump out as much damage as possible. CPs play a pretty big factor. If you have no CPs and you fight someone who is at the cap, they will be dealing an extra 25% damage and resisting a lot of yours. The good news is, CPs are being removed from the nonvet campaign in the next major update, so the only thing you'll have to worry about is gear and skill.

Stam isn't necessarily the way to go. Just upgrade your stuff and walk through their wrecking blows. WB spammers are easy to beat, unless you just stand there like a potato.

Thanks for that! Woah, so many changes its hard to keep up. That (and some of the above posts) really explains what is going on. I have been running around in totally gimped gear thinking BB battle-levelling was like before, duh. No wonder I am getting smashed.

Excellent news about the CP, I have a main VET toon with fairly good crafting skills so it sounds like all I will need is good potions food and have my main craft some nice gear. That sounds reasonable for someone like me that has limited time to play. I quit playing last time because I got sick of grinding mobs for CP in Cold Harbor so its a huge relief to hear I won't have to do that.

It sounds like the system in BB will be quite fun with CPs gone and gear actually having an impact in non-vet (up to 50 its not really that hard to get decent gear and the crafting system in ESO is great).

Poxheart

Docmandu wrote: »

Yasha wrote: »

TDLR: I am hitting for about 2,500 with my major attacks/finishers, but I am getting hit by 11K wrecking blows, etc. BB is meant to be an equalized/normalized pvp area, so why is there such a huge difference in power?

Its like there are two types of players in BB- one type is totally OP can tank a whole group of weak (normal) toons' focus fire and 100-0 players in one rotation. The other pokes away with 250 damage light attacks and 1,000 damage abilities and melts instantly when an OP toon hits them. I can understand this happening in the Vet campaigns where gear and levels are meant to provide a difference, but why is this happening in BB? It's mind boggling.

Because one is an NB, the other isn't ?!

Anyway.. new battle levelling wrecked BWB.. it scales quite poorly if your gear isn't exactly your level.. so unless you craft a new set of purples each level, you will be suffering... add CP to that and you see where the damage comes from. (25% extra damage is stupid, even in vet pvp)

I'm not convinced the highlighted part is true. I've leveled my new nightblade from 10 to 20 while using green level 4 training gear with no enchants (off bar weapon was level 10) and haven't had a problem killing opponents quickly. For a while I didn't even have jewelry... The gear was optimtimized for a stam build (Hunding's & Night Mother's) so that helped. I just made some level 20 versions of the same gear, but didn't get a chance to try it out.

Related to the OP's last post, food & pots scale to VR 15 in BWB no matter what level your character is, so you can use lower level stuff as you level up.

IxSTALKERxI

There is a big difference between those that min/max and those that don't. People who gear out their toons properly will have a huge advantage. CP will make a big difference to.

SeventhCelestial

And this is why no matter my level I go to a Vet server. It's too broken in BB.

raasdal

BB is not broken. It is now the way it should have been from the beginning.

You just need to realize that everyone is now V15, and LEARN how the scaling works. As someone mentioned, you NEED to have level accurate gear. So surprise surprise - you can no longer run around naked and kill people. That was the most stupid thing ever.

NOW, my lvl. 38 Sorc WILL be hitting you with 10k frags, and one-shot combo you with Curse, Frag, Wrath. Why ? Because i am better geared than you.

For the OP;

Every 2 levels (20/22/24/26) you need to craft all new Purple gear. I even make Gold weapons sometimes. The bonus from Set Items will decrease drastically as your level difference grows. Enchantments do however not change for some reason. At least not at the same rate.

Alcast

I tried to pvp on there with 0 CP.

So I have 0 CP, means no 25% inc dmg
but enemy has 25% inc mitigation.
I hit like a wet noodle and just quit.

However, they said they are going to create 0 CP campaigns next patch iirc. So I really hope new ppl can have fun again there and not get rekt by ppl with 501 CP cap

Docmandu

Poxheart wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Yasha wrote: »

TDLR: I am hitting for about 2,500 with my major attacks/finishers, but I am getting hit by 11K wrecking blows, etc. BB is meant to be an equalized/normalized pvp area, so why is there such a huge difference in power?

Its like there are two types of players in BB- one type is totally OP can tank a whole group of weak (normal) toons' focus fire and 100-0 players in one rotation. The other pokes away with 250 damage light attacks and 1,000 damage abilities and melts instantly when an OP toon hits them. I can understand this happening in the Vet campaigns where gear and levels are meant to provide a difference, but why is this happening in BB? It's mind boggling.

Because one is an NB, the other isn't ?!

Anyway.. new battle levelling wrecked BWB.. it scales quite poorly if your gear isn't exactly your level.. so unless you craft a new set of purples each level, you will be suffering... add CP to that and you see where the damage comes from. (25% extra damage is stupid, even in vet pvp)

I'm not convinced the highlighted part is true. I've leveled my new nightblade from 10 to 20 while using green level 4 training gear with no enchants (off bar weapon was level 10) and haven't had a problem killing opponents quickly. For a while I didn't even have jewelry... The gear was optimtimized for a stam build (Hunding's & Night Mother's) so that helped. I just made some level 20 versions of the same gear, but didn't get a chance to try it out.

Related to the OP's last post, food & pots scale to VR 15 in BWB no matter what level your character is, so you can use lower level stuff as you level up.

Fact that you can kill people with lesser gear, doesn't mean that the gear benefit isn't there.. just means you're either better than the opponent and/or the opponent has even worse gear... or.. you're an NB (esp. since at the lower levels, some classes / builds don't have much to mitigate / avoid the damage)

Best way to check the scaling would be to check the stats on your character sheet when you have outdated gear versus gear exactly your level. You'll notice even 1 level difference already makes a difference, while 10-50 goes so quickly that at the lower levels, 5 levels difference is basically nothing.

RAGUNAnoOne

bikerangelo wrote: »

You need more crit.

With everyone and their guar running crit builds with so few in BWB running inpenetrable traits on their gear, it makes sense that this is happening. BWB has become a stomping ground for players with max cp and full set gear, making it incredibly difficult to find "even" fights. Stack as much damage and crit as possible for high burst dps, that's all that matters in the game now.

I heard they are at least removing CPs in BWB and have a veteran campaign with this rule.

Xeniph

SeventhCelestial wrote: »

And this is why no matter my level I go to a Vet server. It's too broken in BB.

What?

You do realize the exact same bolster system in present in the Vet campaigns, right? However you now have to contend with opponents being 1 vr lvl higher with access to some gear combos that are not easily available to lower level folks ( Most folks won't farm for example, an agility set, for a low level every few levels.)

I'll be honest, as a vet 16, low level players are so much easier to kill now that they all aren't running around with 38k health with huge stam/mag pools, like before.

If you are pre-vet, you are doing yourself and your faction a disservice being in a Vet campaign. Unless of coarse you are running with guildies/friends, then that would at least make a bit of sense.

Flaminir

Just to add another voice..

YES you need to re-craft gear... but not every level.

I've gone from level 20 -22 in there over the last day or two and the stats have only gone down a little bit, not enough for me to notice a huge difference (Maybe from 41k magicka to 40k... thats it).

So yeah... maybe every 5 or 6 levels, but not much more than you may have done in PvE tbh.

Just re-craft gear every 5 levels or so and everything is fine.

P.S..... the campaign isn't broken... if anything it's more fun than the vet campaigns because NO LAG!

You can actually get competitive fights as the controls/skills respond. And the spread between easy kills / more competitive fights is still there just as it is in the vet campaigns.

Tal_72

Alcast wrote: »

I tried to pvp on there with 0 CP.

So I have 0 CP, means no 25% inc dmg
but enemy has 25% inc mitigation.
I hit like a wet noodle and just quit.

However, they said they are going to create 0 CP campaigns next patch iirc. So I really hope new ppl can have fun again there and not get rekt by ppl with 501 CP cap

It is astounding that they didn't set up low CP and low VR campaigns from the getgo. Having people just get smashed because they are new is bad for the game.

Alcast

Tal_72 wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

I tried to pvp on there with 0 CP.

So I have 0 CP, means no 25% inc dmg
but enemy has 25% inc mitigation.
I hit like a wet noodle and just quit.

However, they said they are going to create 0 CP campaigns next patch iirc. So I really hope new ppl can have fun again there and not get rekt by ppl with 501 CP cap

It is astounding that they didn't set up low CP and low VR campaigns from the getgo. Having people just get smashed because they are new is bad for the game.

Yep, with that change I really hope that the new players actually have a chance to fight lol.

Valen_Byte

The Champion System ruined BWB for the most part. I still play there...a lot lol

It was soooo much better before CP. It WAS the most balanced campaign.

Drakilian

Honestly, CPs aren't even the worst part of Blackwater Blade at the moment. Don't get me wrong, they're pretty bad but the worst part is by FAR the gear imbalance. Blackwater Blade is supposed to be for newbies but newbies don't have access to the gold, mats, knowledge and research necessary to make good sets of equipment and constantly keep them up to date, particularly on enchantments and jewelry, etc, whereas players with veteran characters and crafter toons will have basically the best gear they can get and for (What is to them) cheap too. The CPs just serve as a multiplier to the incredible imbalance that already exists as a result of these battle-levelled gear changes.

Honestly, the level of the gear just shouldn't matter. Even the quality mattering should be questionable. I like the new battle-levelling in many regards, but it really does give even more of an advantage to veteran players.

Tankqull

it is rather simple you have some highly equiped twinks slotting gold equip on every slot equal to their lvl and you have newbees running around in greengear 5-10 lvl below their char lvl...

RAGUNAnoOne

Tankqull wrote: »

it is rather simple you have some highly equiped twinks slotting gold equip on every slot equal to their lvl and you have newbees running around in greengear 5-10 lvl below their char lvl...

It is so pathetic when people feel they have to go gold for non-vet even just one piece.

kyle.wilson

One day the purity of BWB will be restored. I wish that CP had never been allowed in BWB. It lead to an arms race with the people that played here.

Poxheart

Docmandu wrote: »

Poxheart wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Yasha wrote: »

TDLR: I am hitting for about 2,500 with my major attacks/finishers, but I am getting hit by 11K wrecking blows, etc. BB is meant to be an equalized/normalized pvp area, so why is there such a huge difference in power?

Its like there are two types of players in BB- one type is totally OP can tank a whole group of weak (normal) toons' focus fire and 100-0 players in one rotation. The other pokes away with 250 damage light attacks and 1,000 damage abilities and melts instantly when an OP toon hits them. I can understand this happening in the Vet campaigns where gear and levels are meant to provide a difference, but why is this happening in BB? It's mind boggling.

Because one is an NB, the other isn't ?!

Anyway.. new battle levelling wrecked BWB.. it scales quite poorly if your gear isn't exactly your level.. so unless you craft a new set of purples each level, you will be suffering... add CP to that and you see where the damage comes from. (25% extra damage is stupid, even in vet pvp)

I'm not convinced the highlighted part is true. I've leveled my new nightblade from 10 to 20 while using green level 4 training gear with no enchants (off bar weapon was level 10) and haven't had a problem killing opponents quickly. For a while I didn't even have jewelry... The gear was optimtimized for a stam build (Hunding's & Night Mother's) so that helped. I just made some level 20 versions of the same gear, but didn't get a chance to try it out.

Related to the OP's last post, food & pots scale to VR 15 in BWB no matter what level your character is, so you can use lower level stuff as you level up.

Fact that you can kill people with lesser gear, doesn't mean that the gear benefit isn't there.. just means you're either better than the opponent and/or the opponent has even worse gear... or.. you're an NB (esp. since at the lower levels, some classes / builds don't have much to mitigate / avoid the damage)

Best way to check the scaling would be to check the stats on your character sheet when you have outdated gear versus gear exactly your level. You'll notice even 1 level difference already makes a difference, while 10-50 goes so quickly that at the lower levels, 5 levels difference is basically nothing.

Well, you're correct that the character I referenced is a NB, but I was doing well on my magicka DK and my stam Sorc, too. But next time I'm able to switch the gear sets around & check my stats.

Drakilian

Tankqull wrote: »

it is rather simple you have some highly equiped twinks slotting gold equip on every slot equal to their lvl and you have newbees running around in greengear 5-10 lvl below their char lvl...

I personally don't go up to gold, but I do know some people who are rich enough and do (millionaires through the similarly unfair guild trading system and IC farming).

I purple out all my stuff, because elegant lining is cheap and purple armor is strong. I'd gladly disable my champ points ( I have 219, not impressive in vet I know but anything more than 0 is too much in non-vet) and go down to greens or whites but the problem there is that then I'll just get relentlessly *** by all the other twinks, and there are A LOT of twinks in non-vet. You'll know then because about half the players you fight will be pushovers that you mow down like it's nothing, and the other half will either be challenging or they'll *** you up because they've got even more champ points/better enchants and jewelry.

Even in the duelling meet ups (all duellers are total twinks, because frankly, only the twinks do well enough in the duels to like them), there are obvious imbalances in champ points and gear.

Your options in non-vet as a vet player who doesn't want to play in lagzura's are basically be a part of the problem, or get roflstomped by others who are.

Even the non-lag part of BwB has been slowly disappearing since that group of vet *** high-end twinks from DC formed Vox Mortem and started using Vet tactics in BwB to roflstomp the competition. Yesterday I was running with an AD group that started using the same tactics because they had no other way of countering the zergball than with their own zergball. It worked too, rolled down the DC ball group as easy as can be.

EP hasn't started doing it yet but I assume Loveden and the noquars won't soon have a choice but to start, since things aren't exactly looking good for them.

CatchMeTrolling

The problem is actual vets playing in non vet against actual noobs

Drakilian

Thing is that entering vet as a new player is just about as bad as entering non-vet as a newbie. The difference is insane, vet is nothing but zergs and V16s in gold gear, If you were used to playing a vamp or werewolf you just end up getting messed up by half the player population sporting dawnbreaker, everyone has more experience and champ points and if you're not running in one of the competitive guilds you basically end up as fodder for one of the competitive guilds. It sucks, basically, except for the people who have been playing it forever. Also, a lot of the annoyingly crappy skills used to be (not so much since Vox Mortem) more uncommon in non-vet, and some of the worst offenders in vet PvP like Proxy Det and Meteor are just plain impossible to abuse.

Non-vet is also a lot more forgiving because of this. The high-powered nature of vet PvP just kinda ruins it for a lot of people, honestly, which is why a lot of vet (or relatively new vets like myself) don't like to venture out of there. The worst problems come when old vets also venture down there, and bring their way of fighting to the game.

Docmandu

Biggest issue is that BWB isn't welcoming for new players any longer.. and when new players try the PvP and go WTF is this.. we all loose out, since it will kill the future population.

We need new players to have a chance and have fun!

Be it BWB or something else, there has to be a place where somebody with levelling random drops (greens) and 0 CP has a fighting chance and doesn't constantly get rolled by 501 CP gold set piece crafted, gold enchant crafted wannabees.

Fact that they are going to disable CP in BWB is already a good start, but it's not enough imho.