Not only AoE cap, D/O-ticks also favour big-laggy-zerg

TheDarkShadow

I understand that ZoS sale this game with "epic battle pvp", so they make lots of things in pvp to encourage big group. But lets face it, the server just can't handle it. The bigger cross-swords, the bigger D and O-ticks is one of the reason 50-80 people flocked in a keep, AoE, heal and buff in blindness and lag and ruin the game. These ticks mechanic need to change.

- Remove the bonus scale of size of battle.
- Increase the base tick.
- Add more penalty if you have more than 20 players around. If you take/def a keep with <10 people you get the biggest bonus. If you take/def a keep with 20 people, you get the base tick with no bonus. If you take/def keep with more than 20 people, you get a much more smaller tick.
- Add another bonus scale on the number of keeps your faction hold. The lesser the keeps you have, the bigger the ticks.

Zheg

You do realize the pop caps are at least over 200 per alliance and you'd be expecting more than half of the alliance at any given time to be sitting at the gate waiting for their turn to go have fun right?

You do realize there are only a handful of keeps an alliance should be pushing (and even fewer that actually matter) at any given time right?

You do realize if you're taking a keep with <10 people you're pvdooring an empty keep at that point right?

You do realize guilds that are objective focus almost never stay for Dticks and move onto the next keep being hit right?

These forums are an absolute joke sometimes.

I'd also point out that ticks already favor smaller groups as you get more AP the fewer people there are on your side. And lastly, people don't go to keeps for ticks, don't be absurd. They go there because they're funneled there by a lack of map objectives.

hammayolettuce

Zheg wrote: »

You do realize the pop caps are at least over 200 per alliance and you'd be expecting more than half of the alliance at any given time to be sitting at the gate waiting for their turn to go have fun right?

You do realize there are only a handful of keeps an alliance should be pushing (and even fewer that actually matter) at any given time right?

You do realize if you're taking a keep with <10 people you're pvdooring an empty keep at that point right?

You do realize guilds that are objective focus almost never stay for Dticks and move onto the next keep being hit right?

These forums are an absolute joke sometimes.

I'd also point out that ticks already favor smaller groups as you get more AP the fewer people there are on your side. And lastly, people don't go to keeps for ticks, don't be absurd. They go there because they're funneled there by a lack of map objectives.

Zheg 4 Prez!

PainfulFAFA

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

You do realize the pop caps are at least over 200 per alliance and you'd be expecting more than half of the alliance at any given time to be sitting at the gate waiting for their turn to go have fun right?

You do realize there are only a handful of keeps an alliance should be pushing (and even fewer that actually matter) at any given time right?

You do realize if you're taking a keep with <10 people you're pvdooring an empty keep at that point right?

You do realize guilds that are objective focus almost never stay for Dticks and move onto the next keep being hit right?

These forums are an absolute joke sometimes.

I'd also point out that ticks already favor smaller groups as you get more AP the fewer people there are on your side. And lastly, people don't go to keeps for ticks, don't be absurd. They go there because they're funneled there by a lack of map objectives.

Zheg 4 Prez!

Indeed.
Drunkme agrees with this!!

Edit: #zoslogic

Erondil

Zheg wrote: »

You do realize if you're taking a keep with <10 people you're pvdooring an empty keep at that point right?

Lol
Are you @filmoretub17_ESO 2.0?

TheDarkShadow

Zheg wrote: »

You do realize the pop caps are at least over 200 per alliance and you'd be expecting more than half of the alliance at any given time to be sitting at the gate waiting for their turn to go have fun right?

2/5 campaign in NA is empty/only half filled in prime time. ZoS just closed a death campaign recently. Open it again if needed.

You do realize there are only a handful of keeps an alliance should be pushing (and even fewer that actually matter) at any given time right?

Even if an alliance have all their home keeps and ring keeps, there is still 8 other keeps and 24 resources to cap. Not even mention about scroll running, defending keeps (because, you know, with more penalty for big group and bonus for small group, there will be more small groups attack multiple keeps, specially when they have the "lesser keep" bonus). I've seem many times people cap the keep in the other corner or just a resource deep behind enemy line. Is it "should be" for the sake of the campaign? Probably not. But they have fun, and they spread the population out to help the server instead of flock up on the keep after keep in a predictable line and ruin the fps and ping for everyone. And didn't people (including you) asking for more objects in Cyrodiil? Then add more. Not everyone pushing for emp. There are groups that only take a resource and then fight around it. There are people that playing tug war back and forth on a bridge. There are people who camping on the road and kill people. The lag effect all of these people.

You do realize if you're taking a keep with <10 people you're pvdooring an empty keep at that point right?

If there is lesser people def it because the penalty, then why should you need more? I've seen many group of 5-10 good players taking keep with 5-8 defenders. It's a reward for better players. Go with 16 if you want, add a few more solo players and you can still take down a keep while have fun rather than lag all the way to the win (or lose).

You do realize guilds that are objective focus almost never stay for Dticks and move onto the next keep being hit right?

Then why you even care if D/O-ticks change? There are guilds that push emp, but there are also casual people who only want to have fun with out lag. Imo, its the guild that so call "pvp focus" is the one that ruin the pvp the most with their "stack-on-crown-AoE-raid-of-40-or-more" tactic.

I'd also point out that ticks already favor smaller groups as you get more AP the fewer people there are on your side. And lastly, people don't go to keeps for ticks, don't be absurd. They go there because they're funneled there by a lack of map objectives.

To get tick you need to successfully defend or take a keep. And how on earth can a small group do that against a "stack-on-crown-AoE-raid-of-40-or-more"? If there is only a small group of enemy, then the tick also smaller. Again, this is the problem when ticks bonus scale of battle scale.

Zheg

TheDarkShadow wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

You do realize the pop caps are at least over 200 per alliance and you'd be expecting more than half of the alliance at any given time to be sitting at the gate waiting for their turn to go have fun right?

2/5 campaign in NA is empty/only half filled in prime time. ZoS just closed a death campaign recently. Open it again if needed.

You do realize there are only a handful of keeps an alliance should be pushing (and even fewer that actually matter) at any given time right?

Even if an alliance have all their home keeps and ring keeps, there is still 8 other keeps and 24 resources to cap. I've seem many times people cap the keep in the other corner or just a resource deep behind enemy line. Is it "should be" for the sake of the campaign? Probably not. But they have fun, and they spread the population out to help the server instead of flock up on the keep after keep in a predictable line and ruin the fps and ping for everyone. And didn't people (including you) asking for more objects in Cyrodiil? Then add more. Not everyone pushing for emp. There are groups that only take a resource and then fight around it. There are people that playing tug war back and forth on a bridge. There are people who camping on the road and kill people. The lag effect all of these people.

You do realize if you're taking a keep with <10 people you're pvdooring an empty keep at that point right?

If there is lesser people def it because the penalty, then why should you need more? I've seen many group of 5-10 good players taking keep with 5-8 defenders. It's a reward for better players. Go with 16 if you want, add a few more solo players and you can still take down a keep while have fun rather than lag all the way to the win (or lose).

You do realize guilds that are objective focus almost never stay for Dticks and move onto the next keep being hit right?

Then why you even care if D/O-ticks change? There are guilds that push emp, but there are also casual people who only want to have fun with out lag. Imo, its the guild that so call "pvp focus" is the one that ruin the pvp the most with their "stack-on-crown-AoE-raid-of-40-or-more" tactic.

I'd also point out that ticks already favor smaller groups as you get more AP the fewer people there are on your side. And lastly, people don't go to keeps for ticks, don't be absurd. They go there because they're funneled there by a lack of map objectives.

To get tick you need to successfully defend or take a keep. And how on earth can a small group do that against a "stack-on-crown-AoE-raid-of-40-or-more"? If there is only a small group of enemy, then the tick also smaller. Again, this is the problem when ticks bonus scale of battle scale.

People pvp because they want to fight, they don't want to go to some empty corner of the map and pvdoor a dead keep. Yes, people prefer lag over fighting npcs. Furthermore, if you take all of the extra keeps and resources, guess what, you've just turned it into a buff server and essentially killed all of the action on the map, and the people who you want to spread out are now forced all into one spot because there are no other fights to be had with the other 2 demoralized alliances. Two reds go to take back a resource and then get 30 people to respond because the entire map is dead and people are looking for something, anything to fight. Just because there are still keeps left to take does NOT mean they should be taken. That is the same moronic mentality that killed campaigns in the past.

Just because a small group has taken a keep with a small group defending does not make that the norm, it makes the small group defending bad, and the exception. The majority of the time a group under 10 successfully takes a keep it will be because the keep is dead.

With regards to how a small group defends/takes a keep against 40 or more, guess what ... you don't. You try and delay until you get reinforcements, or you valiantly put up the best fight you can. You're not seal team 6.

I DON'T care if O/D ticks change, the reply was to highlight that you have very little understanding of why people go to keeps to begin with, and very little understanding of why the vast majority of people even go into cyrodiil. You legitimately think people travel to keeps for ticks and not the fight, and you legitimately seem to think people pile on numbers for the tick, so ... I really don't know what else to say to you. You're grossly misinformed.

TheDarkShadow

People flock up in 1 keep because the penalty and reward is not enough to encourage them to spread out. If you get much smaller reward when you stack up to 30+ player, then they will have to split out. If the reward for taking and defending a keep far in the corner is bigger, then people will go all the way to that corner and defend/attack it. I've seen many time the border keep is flagged but no group bother to come and def it because they're too busy lagging at an outpost. Why? Because with bonus scale of the size of battle, a big laggy battle at an outpost will give biggger tick than defending a keep against a small group of people. If a keep in the border worth more campaign score when their alliance have lesser keeps, people will go to the border. Cyrodiil will never free from lag unless ZoS can break down the huge stack-on-crown group and spread the population out. And to do that, they need to change the reward and penalty system.

CatchMeTrolling

Lol you get more ap with less people around from ticks

TheDarkShadow

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Lol you get more ap with less people around from ticks

Unless you're wiped by a 30+ zerg group. And then you call for more people because it's the only way to fight against a zerg: make a bigger one. And then it's the epic 30vs30vs30 battle that ZoS promised, except they forgot to mention the 20 fps and 999+ ping. And then at the end of the day you come to forums and blame ZoS for the lag and the other alliance for the zerg. And tomorrow you continue to form a zerg.

KenaPKK

This whole conversation is ridiculous.

Zheg came close to the crux of the issue, but it's gone over everyone's heads (including his, I think).

There simply aren't enough meaningful objectives in Cyrodiil for the map to accommodate (1) the number of people looking to PvP during primetime, and (2) all of our different desired play styles and preferred group sizes. The existence of multiple campaigns on identical maps and the release of IC are attempts at solving these problems, yet they persist for various reasons.

I'm tired, so instead of explaining it all...

*cough* discuss.

hammayolettuce

TheDarkShadow wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Lol you get more ap with less people around from ticks

Unless you're wiped by a 30+ zerg group. And then you call for more people because it's the only way to fight against a zerg: make a bigger one. And then it's the epic 30vs30vs30 battle that ZoS promised, except they forgot to mention the 20 fps and 999+ ping. And then at the end of the day you come to forums and blame ZoS for the lag and the other alliance for the zerg. And tomorrow you continue to form a zerg.

Someone get this guy some milk. He's not making any sense from post to post.

*

TheDarkShadow

I dont think Cyrodiil is lack of objective. Meaningful maybe, but not objective. So my suggestion is give it more meaning, by give the bonus for alliance with lesser keep, not just AP, but also campaign points (the population bonus is not enough).

But that alone is not enough, because again people will still stack up a biggest group they could to claim those objects one by one. Because not only they take lesser damage, can kill more, but also get more AP from heal and kills, get bonus ticks when fighting another big group.

A small group might get more tick for taking/def an object, in case: 1- the object is not too important for the 30+ zerg to care about, 2- the object is important enough for a smaller group to come and fight for it, 3- the small group don't call out the zerg to come. Not to mention while sitting in an object off the way hope for someone might come to fight, they still make lesser AP because lesser kills and smaller battle scale bonus. That's why people ignore keeps on the border and keep playing tug war between 2 objects in the middle, because they make more AP.

TheDarkShadow

hammayolettuce wrote: »

TheDarkShadow wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Lol you get more ap with less people around from ticks

Unless you're wiped by a 30+ zerg group. And then you call for more people because it's the only way to fight against a zerg: make a bigger one. And then it's the epic 30vs30vs30 battle that ZoS promised, except they forgot to mention the 20 fps and 999+ ping. And then at the end of the day you come to forums and blame ZoS for the lag and the other alliance for the zerg. And tomorrow you continue to form a zerg.

Someone get this guy some milk. He's not making any sense from post to post.

*

I'm sorry if you can't understand what I said. Maybe you just cant progress it.

Leandor

Zheg wrote: »

You do realize the pop caps are at least over 200 per alliance and you'd be expecting more than half of the alliance at any given time to be sitting at the gate waiting for their turn to go have fun right?

You do realize there are only a handful of keeps an alliance should be pushing (and even fewer that actually matter) at any given time right?

You do realize if you're taking a keep with <10 people you're pvdooring an empty keep at that point right?

You do realize guilds that are objective focus almost never stay for Dticks and move onto the next keep being hit right?

These forums are an absolute joke sometimes.

I'd also point out that ticks already favor smaller groups as you get more AP the fewer people there are on your side. And lastly, people don't go to keeps for ticks, don't be absurd. They go there because they're funneled there by a lack of map objectives.

Speaking my mind in clever words. Thank you, @Zheg

eliisra

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Lol you get more ap with less people around from ticks

Yeah, dee ticks are pathetic when half the factions stacks in one keep. In most cases you're better of just leaving and killing stragglers on the resource than waiting for a puny 1200 AP ticking in.

However the more allies and enemies that dies in a fight, the bigger the tick, if you come out as winner. This favours large fights I guess. But I still think it's a reasonable mechanics. Killing more enemies and defending against big forces, should grant a larger AP reward. That makes sense.

Otherwise you could just get a keep contested with some alt and die or whatever, than fast log your main and get the improved "base tick" the OP is talking about lol.

TheDarkShadow

However the more allies and enemies that dies in a fight, the bigger the tick, if you come out as winner. This favours large fights I guess. But I still think it's a reasonable mechanics. Killing more enemies and defending against big forces, should grant a larger AP reward. That makes sense.

Yep, that make sense, but it also make lag too.

tinythinker

Or....

Add moving flags.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Well if it helps you sleep better at night next update the Thieves guild on smaller groups will be rewarded with more AP so those big laggy zergs will be getting nothing while all us small group players be racking in the AP.

KenaPKK

TheDarkShadow wrote: »

I dont think Cyrodiil is lack of objective. Meaningful maybe, but not objective. So my suggestion is give it more meaning, by give the bonus for alliance with lesser keep, not just AP, but also campaign points (the population bonus is not enough).

But that alone is not enough, because again people will still stack up a biggest group they could to claim those objects one by one. Because not only they take lesser damage, can kill more, but also get more AP from heal and kills, get bonus ticks when fighting another big group.

A small group might get more tick for taking/def an object, in case: 1- the object is not too important for the 30+ zerg to care about, 2- the object is important enough for a smaller group to come and fight for it, 3- the small group don't call out the zerg to come. Not to mention while sitting in an object off the way hope for someone might come to fight, they still make lesser AP because lesser kills and smaller battle scale bonus. That's why people ignore keeps on the border and keep playing tug war between 2 objects in the middle, because they make more AP.

Notice that I did use the word "meaningful." Think about what I said a little bit more.

frozywozy

Zheg wrote: »

People pvp because they want to fight, they don't want to go to some empty corner of the map and pvdoor a dead keep. Yes, people prefer lag over fighting npcs. Furthermore, if you take all of the extra keeps and resources, guess what, you've just turned it into a buff server and essentially killed all of the action on the map, and the people who you want to spread out are now forced all into one spot because there are no other fights to be had with the other 2 demoralized alliances. Two reds go to take back a resource and then get 30 people to respond because the entire map is dead and people are looking for something, anything to fight. Just because there are still keeps left to take does NOT mean they should be taken. That is the same moronic mentality that killed campaigns in the past.

What kill campaigns is not people who captured the remaining keeps / scrolls of an enemy faction. Cyrodiil was made for that specific reason. What kill campaigns is large 24men blob groups who do laps around Bleakers stairs, on top of Chalman milegate or who farm Chalman mine for hours spiking the server up to 800ms and completely discourage any resistance to fight them while claiming that Nikel is the most popular location in Cyrodiil.

Zheg

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

People pvp because they want to fight, they don't want to go to some empty corner of the map and pvdoor a dead keep. Yes, people prefer lag over fighting npcs. Furthermore, if you take all of the extra keeps and resources, guess what, you've just turned it into a buff server and essentially killed all of the action on the map, and the people who you want to spread out are now forced all into one spot because there are no other fights to be had with the other 2 demoralized alliances. Two reds go to take back a resource and then get 30 people to respond because the entire map is dead and people are looking for something, anything to fight. Just because there are still keeps left to take does NOT mean they should be taken. That is the same moronic mentality that killed campaigns in the past.

What kill campaigns is not people who captured the remaining keeps / scrolls of an enemy faction. Cyrodiil was made for that specific reason. What kill campaigns is large 24men blob groups who do laps around Bleakers stairs, on top of Chalman milegate or who farm Chalman mine for hours spiking the server up to 800ms and completely discourage any resistance to fight them while claiming that Nikel is the most popular location in Cyrodiil.

Says the guy who buried his smallman in at least 2 full raids on Sunday ... right. I was there defending ales and ash with 2 people in my group, against close to (if not) a full haxus group (including a name back from the dead), unruh's group, your group, plus pugs. Luckily daniel still had the numbers on to take back the keeps behind you guys, or you would have pushed straight to our gates I'm sure.

SO, were you there because you were intentionally stacking to ensure EP had obscene numbers and thereby making the ping awful? Or were you there because what I said holds true and you were funneled there for a lack of other viable options? Take your pick, because it's one of the two, and you look absurd now either way.

As an aside, I know you have no problems with it because you lack the mental faculties to comprehend the impact, but for everyone else out there, it's worth reiterating that just because your alliance has overwhelming numbers on and is roflstomping the other two alliances, you should NOT be pushing people to their gates. When the entire map gets flipped, the other alliances are demoralized and just don't show up. When they do show up, and 3 people go to take back a resource, your entire alliance sends 30+ people there because there is literally no action left on the map. Frozn still hasn't learned this lesson, so ask yourself, do you want to be like Frozn? That's what I thought.

frozywozy

Zheg wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

People pvp because they want to fight, they don't want to go to some empty corner of the map and pvdoor a dead keep. Yes, people prefer lag over fighting npcs. Furthermore, if you take all of the extra keeps and resources, guess what, you've just turned it into a buff server and essentially killed all of the action on the map, and the people who you want to spread out are now forced all into one spot because there are no other fights to be had with the other 2 demoralized alliances. Two reds go to take back a resource and then get 30 people to respond because the entire map is dead and people are looking for something, anything to fight. Just because there are still keeps left to take does NOT mean they should be taken. That is the same moronic mentality that killed campaigns in the past.

What kill campaigns is not people who captured the remaining keeps / scrolls of an enemy faction. Cyrodiil was made for that specific reason. What kill campaigns is large 24men blob groups who do laps around Bleakers stairs, on top of Chalman milegate or who farm Chalman mine for hours spiking the server up to 800ms and completely discourage any resistance to fight them while claiming that Nikel is the most popular location in Cyrodiil.

Says the guy who buried his smallman in at least 2 full raids on Sunday ... right. I was there defending ales and ash with 2 people in my group, against close to (if not) a full haxus group (including a name back from the dead), unruh's group, your group, plus pugs. Luckily daniel still had the numbers on to take back the keeps behind you guys, or you would have pushed straight to our gates I'm sure.

SO, were you there because you were intentionally stacking to ensure EP had obscene numbers and thereby making the ping awful? Or were you there because what I said holds true and you were funneled there for a lack of other viable options? Take your pick, because it's one of the two, and you look absurd now either way.

As an aside, I know you have no problems with it because you lack the mental faculties to comprehend the impact, but for everyone else out there, it's worth reiterating that just because your alliance has overwhelming numbers on and is roflstomping the other two alliances, you should NOT be pushing people to their gates. When the entire map gets flipped, the other alliances are demoralized and just don't show up. When they do show up, and 3 people go to take back a resource, your entire alliance sends 30+ people there because there is literally no action left on the map. Frozn still hasn't learned this lesson, so ask yourself, do you want to be like Frozn? That's what I thought.

I like when people like you assume things I am doing without even knowing who I am and probably also without even knowing one single member of my guild or even who my guild is. Keep thinking that "my group was there" when in reality, you have no idea who I group with.

Me zerg surfing solo from time to time doesn't break a server. What break the server is a 24men ballgroup stacking close to each other spamming aoes, heals and purges. Me zerg surfing from time to time doesn't demoralize a faction. What demoralize a faction is a 24men ballgroup stacking close to each other spamming aoes, heals and purges, being near of invulnerable because CC breaking or dodge rolling doesn't work when they're approaching.

My guild group runs once a week on wesdnesday evening from 8:00pm to 1:00am EST. The rest of the week, I'm usually teaming with 1-4friends and what we do 75% of our time is capturing ressources deep in enemy territory, flagging keeps to cut the transit or defending what we have. I will also siege keeps on the opposite side of the counter-siege and I will prep keeps for the incoming guilds. When I see the ping spiking to ridiculous amount, I always switch to the opposite side of the map. For example if we're fighting DC at Bleakers and it's laggy, I'll instantly transit to Sej and I also ask for the cooperation of EP in zone chat to do the same.

Again, what demoralize a faction is not people caturing their keeps and scrolls. Scrolls are worthless anyway at the moment (capture a ressource counts for the same). What kill and destroy and depress players is when you constantly kill them over and over again on a strategic location abusing the lag instead of actually killing them once, keep pushing and capture the objective. Pushing back and forth at Chalman milegate rolling on groups doesn't accomplish anything for your faction. It only satisfies your own interests and annoys everybody else.

Your last paragraph implies that I agree that we should NOT let people regain their home keeps when they were captured, which is false. The tri-keeps should be given back without too much resistances (guilds holding them), once the scrolls were captured.

Jhunn

Zheg wrote: »

You do realize the pop caps are at least over 200 per alliance and you'd be expecting more than half of the alliance at any given time to be sitting at the gate waiting for their turn to go have fun right?

200 per alliance! I call bullsh*t

Etaniel

Jhunn wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

You do realize the pop caps are at least over 200 per alliance and you'd be expecting more than half of the alliance at any given time to be sitting at the gate waiting for their turn to go have fun right?

200 per alliance! I call bullsh*t

Yup, it'd definitely less than that. I'd bet for something like 125 per alliance max