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Why do we want to eliminate or deminish player escape mechanics? Unskilled 10v1 players.

Cathexis
Cathexis
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On the surface, I get the main argument. I want to start this post by saying I can empathize with everyone when it comes to the frustration of seeing your opponent slip away. I get that.

But I think that very often we get swept up in the emotion of frustration on this topic and we lose sight of how important escape mechanics really are to the quality of combat.

Now for anyone who has read my posts about nerfing cloak, my biggest gripe with cloak is that nightblades can simply poof out whenever they want regardless of the number of pursuers they may be facing. Specifically my biggest gripe is that the meta of the game specifically does not allow any other class to do this, even going so far as to remove this ability from sorcerers. My stance has been that if it is not acceptable for any other class, why do nightblades have this privilege?

That said, this is not a thread to debate the merits of cloak - the bigger issue I hope to discuss here is that really all classes should have some sort of escape utility, at least pertaining to these ridiculous 10+v1 zerg situations.

Let's be real here for a moment. There is an increasing consensus that the zerg is a problem, both in latency, and in the protections it offers against solo players and lesser groups. While I am built and trained in be mobile and I work tirelessly on my ability to evade groups, there are inevitable situations, situations we have all experienced, where you just getting zerged down 1v10+ hopelessly.

This group killing is not only unskilled, it is fundamentally disgraceful for the outnumbering group. The 10v1 isn't combat, its a massacre. Unless you are a god player, the odds of being victorious in that encounter is non-existant. In that scenario, you are forced to evade. This leads to the following two arguments:

"Well if they are running they should die." - But why? If there is no other choice, shouldn't that player have a running chance at escape? If 10+ players cannot keep up with one player, why is their grounds to make a forum argument that the solo player should be punished? The group has a very clear, decisive advantage already in numbers which protects them from relative harm. A solo escaping opponent is already at a disadvantage without nerfed or missing mobility or group tanking skills.

And of course the second argument

"It should only be a chance to escape." - This is a flawed argument because the reality is with escape moves it is always a chance to escape. If you employ escape abilities too late in a fight you run a serious risk of dieing. Furthermore, the reality of the 10v1 is that there actually is no chance to escape given a perfect storm of variables.

So with all this in mind I leave you with this idea:
Do groups not already have enough advantages inherent to the group itself that we need to further punish players who are forced to flee from combat?
Do we not want to foster a PvP environment where a players success or failure is determined as a factor of their skill and not simply because they were hopelessly zerged down?
By giving only one class this ability, are we not just pigeonholing people into playing one class to optimize their meta? Why not give proficient escape or zerg tanking abilities to all players?
Edited by Cathexis on December 30, 2015 9:03PM
The Tomb of FPS Alteration Magic - Everything You Need to Know About FPS
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/520903/tomb-of-fps-alteration-magic-everything-you-need-to-know-about-fps
Praise Malacath.
  • Forestd16b14_ESO
    Forestd16b14_ESO
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    If it's 1vX yes it is valid to retreat and use the escape mechanics as they were intended but when 1 guy does it to troll then no.
  • Thelon
    Thelon
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    I'm a dirty dirty blink Mage and I approve this message.
  • Moglijuana
    Moglijuana
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    I agree 100%. I main Magicka DK and literally have no escape anymore. Mist form is such a joke that I don't even have it learned because it is a waste of a skill point. Now, I do understand that I am supposed to be able to "tank" and not have an easy time escaping as easy as a NB or a Sorc, but as of now I can't even tank lol. I'm also fine with this for now since I have figured out a build that can 1v1 really well but still, in today's meta it is all about HIGH burst and HIGH mobility to get away from these 60+ people zergs...Magicka DK has neither... The problem is that ZOS really needs to get their combat systems down and balance everything out. I keep seeing all these admin posts about ideas they want to discuss, but they only post ONCE and then just dip out. Do they actually care? Who knows. I just think they need to either give everyone similar abilities (which I don't want really) or give each class a distinct strength and weakness to make it it's own class. As of now only two classes can enjoy freedom to fight ANY way they want, while the other two are left to be zerged on until they die...at least templars can heal lol.
    Ps4 - PSN:jdmaya
    Dårth Måul (AD- Dunmer Mag DK) Legate
    Latest Vid:https://youtu.be/WZp_IdyrL6Q
  • leepalmer95
    leepalmer95
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    Oh no! you mentioned cloak in a bad way.

    Inb4:
    #Aoe's (the costly 'reliable' way,
    #Revealing Flare (doesn't work),
    # Detect pots! (just hope you have that 45s cooldown up),


    and the all time favourite #nerf sorc.
    PS4 EU DC

    Current CP : 756+

    I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.


    RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...
  • Derra
    Derra
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    The constant gutting of abilities enabling players to outplay their opponents when outnumbered in combination with the dmg reduction currently in place is what has brought pvp to the sad state it´s currently in.

    Nobody except for veterans considers running by themselves an option anymore because it has become a death sentence.
    Thanks to all the nerf reflect, teleport, bowspeed, dodgeroll, sunshield whiners - you´ve won.
    Edited by Derra on December 30, 2015 11:04PM
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • Dr_Ganknstein
    Dr_Ganknstein
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    I love when I use focus charge and stop halfway into the air flying at my target because some fotm NB popped cloak.
    Edited by Dr_Ganknstein on December 30, 2015 11:33PM
  • RapturousRex
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    I do feel every class should have an escape option.

    Would be cool if DK's could bound, like a pounce away.
  • QuebraRegra
    QuebraRegra
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    Thelon wrote: »
    I'm a dirty dirty blink Mage and I approve this message.

    I hate you dirty blink mage!... and yer post is awesome. :)
  • QuebraRegra
    QuebraRegra
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    Am I not using the same cloak? pretty much a stiff wind, or a fart will drop me out of cloak instantly. Hell half the time I'm still targeted even after cloaking. About the only thing it does is burn thru my magicka.

    That's all before the AOEs and Magelight's etc.

    Some people here must not have played a NB lately.

  • Tryxus
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    Completely agree.

    The nerfs to Streak were completely uncalled for since the skill itself, just like Cloak, had plenty of counters. Mostly Gap Closers but also roots and stuns.

    As the 2 DPS Classes out there in PvE, as well as being the Ranged Fighter (Mage) and the Ganker (NB) in PvP, mobility is obviously something very, very important to these 2 classes. Sorcs mostly wear Light Armor so they need Streak to keep a safe distance whereas NB need Cloak to escape failed assassinations or aweful encounters.

    However, for both the DK and the Temp to get an escape move is gonna be a bit tricky.

    The DK is obviously meant as a Tank/Pyro in PvE and a Battlefield Controller in PvP. Mobility is something they don't need to fulfill these roles. Likewise, the Templar is meant as a Healer/Paladin or a Supporter. If every class gets the same type of abilities then there's not really a need for classes in the end.

    (Also, giving a class a certain ability needs to fit with the Class Aesthetics. Example: a heavily armored tank disappearing in the blink of an eye...)

    But perhaps an escape ability could be given in another skill, in the same way that for example all Stamina builds could get a heal and an executioner (2H) or a Cloak Counter (Caltrops)? And one that would fit for each class? Like maybe with the upcoming Thieves Guild that we could get an escape move that every class can use?
    Edited by Tryxus on December 31, 2015 12:27AM
    "The Oak's Promise: stand strong, stay true, and shelter all"
    Tryxus of the Undying Song - Warden - PC/EU/DC
  • RapturousRex
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    I agree with the aesthetic idea, hence the dragon bounds.

    thieves/DB escapes would be cool however. SMOKE BOMB! duration based on armour type obviously [solely for the Kung Pow reference].
  • Junkogen
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    Here we go again. Another make all classes the same thread. Okay, if DKs should get an escape then every other class needs a reflect, self-heals, and shield. It's not fair to negate one class's unique ability and not all the others.
  • RapturousRex
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    2 classes.

    And I'm pretty sure Nightblades have a class ability designed entirely around negating shields, so @Junkogen, as Nightblades can negate a DK's unique ability, should that skill be nerfed? Or go completely? In order to be fair of course.
  • dehlert
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    What if dragon leap was adjusted so you can cast it freely at the cost of your ultimate, then when it is empty at the cost of your stamina? But the condition is you only can leap the distance and don't knock back or do dmg... that way we get an escape but a new skill doesn't need to be made.

    If your ultimate is full it works per usual
    Edited by dehlert on December 31, 2015 2:58AM
  • RoamingRiverElk
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    Okay, if DKs should get an escape then every other class needs a reflect, self-heals, and shield.

    In this zergy meta, 4 reflects (more than countered by two light attack weaving crushing shock users already) is not much at all. Self-heals? What self-heals? Have you tried a magicka dk ever since healing got a general debuff in Cyrodiil? Shield? You mean the absolutely miserable strength of Igneous Shield, or perhaps the actual 1H + Shield that still allows you to block for a long time, but ONLY, *ONLY*, if you spec everything in that, meaning that your heals are even lower, or you don't have enough regen. Damage in that situation is not even worth mentioning, because you won't be doing any... As in, it's so low that you will not be able to kill even the noobiest of noobs, for real.
    Dalris Aalr - Magicka (Stamina) DK | Dalfish - Magicka Sorc | Dal Aalr - Magicka Warden | Dalrish - Mag/Stam NB | Irana Aalr - PvE Templar
  • NordJitsu
    NordJitsu
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    If the debacle that was the Bolt Escape threads hasn't taught you anything, you can't learn.

    People consistently whined about Bolt Escape and the developers repeatedly gutted it (at least 4 times, but I may have lost count.) The skill is a shadow of its former self.

    All this is despite every half way decent player being able to counter BE and continually explaining how.

    I quit the game for quite a while actually because I was so frustrated with the repeatedly moronic balance decisions. Frankly, the game was better balanced in early Beta. There have been high times and low times, but overall the balance changes have not been part of any evidence-based feedback or consistent philosophy and testing.

    They basically make balance changes based on what most people are crying about at the time.

    So the cycle is:

    1. Good players find something fun and powerful
    2. Decent players adapt strategies from the good players
    3. Bad players or players who just don't try to make effective builds start getting destroyed
    4. Bad/lazy players whine a lot on the forum, while good players point to evidence on why they're wrong
    5. The bad players inevitably outweigh the good ones (because that's a mathematical necessity) so ZOS nerfs the skill
    6. Good players start looking for something else that's fun and powerful


    Eventually though you get sick of re-building your character because some people would rather fight their battles on the forum than the battlefield, using developers as a weapon instead of skill/items. It gets tiring and eventually the overall fun factor of the game is diminished by the developers slowly destroying what made it fun.

    ESO is far from alone in doing this. It's more rare than not to find a game with a true VISION for balance, immune from complainers.
    @NordJitsu - Guild Master (Main Character = Hlaalu Idas)
    GREAT HOUSE HLAALU
  • RapturousRex
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    I like how its fun AND powerful, and how it's found by good players. Makes your argument seem totally balanced and not one sided at all.
  • Deandril
    Deandril
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    Better hit that cloak before I hit piercing mark!
  • Junkogen
    Junkogen
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    2 classes.

    And I'm pretty sure Nightblades have a class ability designed entirely around negating shields, so @Junkogen, as Nightblades can negate a DK's unique ability, should that skill be nerfed? Or go completely? In order to be fair of course.

    Which ability negates shields?
  • Junkogen
    Junkogen
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    Okay, if DKs should get an escape then every other class needs a reflect, self-heals, and shield.

    In this zergy meta, 4 reflects (more than countered by two light attack weaving crushing shock users already) is not much at all. Self-heals? What self-heals? Have you tried a magicka dk ever since healing got a general debuff in Cyrodiil? Shield? You mean the absolutely miserable strength of Igneous Shield, or perhaps the actual 1H + Shield that still allows you to block for a long time, but ONLY, *ONLY*, if you spec everything in that, meaning that your heals are even lower, or you don't have enough regen. Damage in that situation is not even worth mentioning, because you won't be doing any... As in, it's so low that you will not be able to kill even the noobiest of noobs, for real.

    Sounds like you guys should be asking for fixes to DKs not cloning the Nightblade class. Otherwise it just seems like you should reroll a Nightblade because you prefer that playstyle. DKs should be about standing their ground, not running away like a squishy Nightblade or Sorc. If that means buffing their shield and reflect, so be it. But don't make all the classes the same. Otherwise, why have classes if they all can do essentially the same thing?
    Edited by Junkogen on December 31, 2015 4:44AM
  • RapturousRex
    RapturousRex
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    Marking.
  • Junkogen
    Junkogen
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    Marking.

    That doesn't negate shields. It lowers armor and spell resistance. Shield remains intact.
  • RapturousRex
    RapturousRex
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    Semantics. Much like how coming to a thread about giving templars and DK's a movement skill and complaining that folk are trying to remove a third classes' unique skill is one of semantics.

    Or how claiming how a type of skill is unique to one class when another class has that same skill type is also semantics.
  • Junkogen
    Junkogen
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    Semantics. Much like how coming to a thread about giving templars and DK's a movement skill and complaining that folk are trying to remove a third classes' unique skill is one of semantics.

    Or how claiming how a type of skill is unique to one class when another class has that same skill type is also semantics.

    Hardened ward and healing ward are shields and are unaffected by the mark target skill. Not semantics, truth. If you want to give DKs and Templars the same abilities as Nightblades and Sorcs then you have to do the same the other way. Otherwise, DK and Templar become OP because they would have no weaknesses. Also, there's a skill called rapid maneuver. What's wrong with that skill? It increases mobility.
  • RoamingRiverElk
    RoamingRiverElk
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    Junkogen wrote: »
    Okay, if DKs should get an escape then every other class needs a reflect, self-heals, and shield.

    In this zergy meta, 4 reflects (more than countered by two light attack weaving crushing shock users already) is not much at all. Self-heals? What self-heals? Have you tried a magicka dk ever since healing got a general debuff in Cyrodiil? Shield? You mean the absolutely miserable strength of Igneous Shield, or perhaps the actual 1H + Shield that still allows you to block for a long time, but ONLY, *ONLY*, if you spec everything in that, meaning that your heals are even lower, or you don't have enough regen. Damage in that situation is not even worth mentioning, because you won't be doing any... As in, it's so low that you will not be able to kill even the noobiest of noobs, for real.

    Sounds like you guys should be asking for fixes to DKs not cloning the Nightblade class. Otherwise it just seems like you should reroll a Nightblade because you prefer that playstyle. DKs should be about standing their ground, not running away like a squishy Nightblade or Sorc. If that means buffing their shield and reflect, so be it. But don't make all the classes the same. Otherwise, why have classes if they all can do essentially the same thing?

    Well I totally agree with that. The buffs I'd like to see for my magicka DK would have to do with being able to tank multiple opponents (since I can't avoid them with escape skills). So personally, the change that I'd like to see are not an escape skill, mobility skill or an execute. What I'd like to see for magicka DKs are things like faster ultimate generation (based on enemies hit with draw essence, for instance [and it should provide a heal from up to 6 enemies, not 3]), dragon blood which is not affected by the Cyrodiil healing debuff (well, the 20% reduction or whatever it used to be was fine back then), and being able to generate more stamina while blocking (this too could be tied to some magicka skills, if stamina DKs would get too much of an advantage otherwise). Reflect could easily be changed to 6 projectiles instead of 4. When one thinks about it, going from unlimited projectiles to 4 was quite the change. And these days a lot of people do animation cancel.

    Edit: And magicka gap closer + magicka skill that combines 20% dodge chance with something else would be more than welcome, too.
    Edited by RoamingRiverElk on December 31, 2015 7:19AM
    Dalris Aalr - Magicka (Stamina) DK | Dalfish - Magicka Sorc | Dal Aalr - Magicka Warden | Dalrish - Mag/Stam NB | Irana Aalr - PvE Templar
  • Cathexis
    Cathexis
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    Junkogen wrote: »
    Semantics. Much like how coming to a thread about giving templars and DK's a movement skill and complaining that folk are trying to remove a third classes' unique skill is one of semantics.

    Or how claiming how a type of skill is unique to one class when another class has that same skill type is also semantics.

    Hardened ward and healing ward are shields and are unaffected by the mark target skill. Not semantics, truth. If you want to give DKs and Templars the same abilities as Nightblades and Sorcs then you have to do the same the other way. Otherwise, DK and Templar become OP because they would have no weaknesses. Also, there's a skill called rapid maneuver. What's wrong with that skill? It increases mobility.

    Just to clarify I am not saying give them the same abilities, I am saying give them escape mechanics. Not necessarily the same mechanics - for example a tanking ability that ramps up your stats when your getting pounded on by 6+ people, or a long range single use teleport with a cast time that requires placing an exit point (say 30m away max).

    Of course I agree doing this would also necessitate calling into question the relative durability of nightblades and sorcs compared to temps and dks.
    The Tomb of FPS Alteration Magic - Everything You Need to Know About FPS
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/520903/tomb-of-fps-alteration-magic-everything-you-need-to-know-about-fps
    Praise Malacath.
  • DaveMoeDee
    DaveMoeDee
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    Tryxus wrote: »
    Completely agree.

    The nerfs to Streak were completely uncalled for since the skill itself, just like Cloak, had plenty of counters. Mostly Gap Closers but also roots and stuns.

    As the 2 DPS Classes out there in PvE, as well as being the Ranged Fighter (Mage) and the Ganker (NB) in PvP, mobility is obviously something very, very important to these 2 classes. Sorcs mostly wear Light Armor so they need Streak to keep a safe distance whereas NB need Cloak to escape failed assassinations or aweful encounters.

    However, for both the DK and the Temp to get an escape move is gonna be a bit tricky.

    The DK is obviously meant as a Tank/Pyro in PvE and a Battlefield Controller in PvP. Mobility is something they don't need to fulfill these roles. Likewise, the Templar is meant as a Healer/Paladin or a Supporter. If every class gets the same type of abilities then there's not really a need for classes in the end.

    (Also, giving a class a certain ability needs to fit with the Class Aesthetics. Example: a heavily armored tank disappearing in the blink of an eye...)

    But perhaps an escape ability could be given in another skill, in the same way that for example all Stamina builds could get a heal and an executioner (2H) or a Cloak Counter (Caltrops)? And one that would fit for each class? Like maybe with the upcoming Thieves Guild that we could get an escape move that every class can use?

    The idea that a DK is supposed to tank and Templar is supposed to do support can become silly in PvP when the focus moves to ganking. An NB continually gets free shots in. Even if it never kills the DK, the NB gets to dictate gameplay for the entire encounter. Sure, it is great to have tanky guys up front when groups face off. But what about all the rest of gameplay in Cyrodiil.

    And it isn't like the classes with escapes aren't just as valuable in grouped PvP. They are. They do very good dps. So you give really good DPS to a class that can hit and disappear. So the NB in stealth nails a DK. The DK responds with one of their skills (which are usually DOT), the NB disappears, having less damage than the DK and able to dictate the next move.

    I would love to see another skill line in one of the 2 upcoming DLC that addresses this.

    I am generally fine with things being as uneven as they are, but how silly the PvP can be is really in your face when hunting down NBs that just keep popping in and out of view. Not a big deal to me, but definitely tempts me to switch to an alt. If skills are such that they encourage most of the population to ignore classes, I don't think that is good.
  • Joy_Division
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    Cathexis wrote: »
    Why not give proficient escape or zerg tanking abilities to all players?

    We had something like this. It was called 1.5.

    Then 1.6 came out and those classes and specs that got left out in the cold in the escape or die meta objected, rightfully I think, and rather than address the issue with the "tank" classes, ZoS's attempt at balance was to make it so the non-tanks were easier to zerg down.
  • Shunravi
    Shunravi
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    Cathexis wrote: »
    Why not give proficient escape or zerg tanking abilities to all players?

    We had something like this. It was called 1.5.

    Then 1.6 came out and those classes and specs that got left out in the cold in the escape or die meta objected, rightfully I think, and rather than address the issue with the "tank" classes, ZoS's attempt at balance was to make it so the non-tanks were easier to zerg down.

    Gods I miss 1.5
    This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!
  • RapturousRex
    RapturousRex
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    Yes semantics, It's fairly obvious by yhe fact I shields aren't unique to DK's that I used the wrong word.
    Edited by RapturousRex on December 31, 2015 11:29AM
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