Dw or 2h for a magicka nb?

leepalmer95

Or should i use a desto staff since i don't have det?

DannyLV702

I say destro staff since you don't have det. Duel wield is a little more advanced and you'll need destro medium attacks to keep pressure on sorcs.

Shader_Shibes

For what, PvP/PvE? For PvE you want DW on your back bar for sap spam. However some are now using dual staff with 2 kena and light weaving impale for the kena proc. For PvP staff is safer, dw is riskier without magika bomb but doable with good skills, hence I use staff xD

Xantaria

If you just want to know 2h or DW: the answer is DW. It is more spell damage and extra set bonus and same effect from the passive.

Flameheart

For PvE at least you want Destro on your single target damage skill bar and two swords on your second bar for AoE damage. You prefer the two swords over 2h because of more spell damage and maybe another set bonus. You prefer Destro for the single target bar because of light/medium attack weaving.

Cherryblossom

You've not given any details to your build! Not any, as in nothing!

Are you Stam or Magica?

What skills?

PVE or PVP?
May be try the http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/combat-character-mechanics

ADarklore

Cherryblossom wrote: »

You've not given any details to your build! Not any, as in nothing!

Are you Stam or Magica?

In the title he said MAGICKA NB.

Flameheart wrote: »

For PvE at least you want Destro on your single target damage skill bar and two swords on your second bar for AoE damage. You prefer the two swords over 2h because of more spell damage and maybe another set bonus. You prefer Destro for the single target bar because of light/medium attack weaving.

Now I'll chime in with my own questions as I am starting a PvE Magicka NB for solo questing. I'm wondering why people aren't using actual NB class skills? People here are talking using Staff instead of DW for single target yet Magicka-based NB class skills count as spells so using DW with class skills would also benefit from DW's spell damage increase and extra set bonus. I was planning on DW for main bar for single target thereby benefiting NB class skill with DW spell damage increase... and then putting inferno staff on secondary for using Sap Essence and Elemental Ring for AoE... is this not a good solo PvE option?

AzraelKrieg

I'm using a mag NB for PvE and my set up is DW/Resto. Resto is purely used to restore magicka and to do quick light attacks to set up Relentless Focus on my Dual Wield bar.

Kwivur

DW..

Khaos_Bane

Xantaria wrote: »

If you just want to know 2h or DW: the answer is DW. It is more spell damage and extra set bonus and same effect from the passive.

DW is less spell damage that 2H weapon but they are both more spell damage than staff. I use DW to get the extra set bonus.

Spearshard

I'm pretty sure they nerfed the extra spell damage you got from the weapoms, you can't equip dual wield and get the higher spell damage that you could before. The only advantage dual wield gives now is the passive dual blunt and blade for the 6% damage increase for swords. I tried it the other day on my mag NB and spell damage does not go up more than about 8 points for dual wield as compared to a destro staff. Still, a 6% passive damage increase is nice. But you lose the damage from medium attack weaving, and heavy attacks to gain magica back.

ADarklore

Spearshard wrote: »

I'm pretty sure they nerfed the extra spell damage you got from the weapoms, you can't equip dual wield and get the higher spell damage that you could before. The only advantage dual wield gives now is the passive dual blunt and blade for the 6% damage increase for swords. I tried it the other day on my mag NB and spell damage does not go up more than about 8 points for dual wield as compared to a destro staff. Still, a 6% passive damage increase is nice. But you lose the damage from medium attack weaving, and heavy attacks to gain magica back.

You are the first person to mention that a nerf to DW occurred, as last I heard the devs had no intention of doing so. Perhaps someone else that number crunches can chime in on this. I just wonder if this is yet another of the numerous UI bugs where it doesn't actually show up in the characters sheet- seems to be a lot of that going on.

Let's not forget that DW also gives you access to an extra set bonus which for me running Julianos and Magnus, gets me additional spell damage. Your point about attacks regenning Magicka is another reason for going inferno staff on my secondary bar with the AoE... using Elemental Ring in mobs I never have to worry about running out of Magicka because using the Destro Staff spell I regen Magicka when killing targets... combine that with Sap Essence and, yeah.

Flameheart

ADarklore wrote: »

Cherryblossom wrote: »

You've not given any details to your build! Not any, as in nothing!

Are you Stam or Magica?

In the title he said MAGICKA NB.

Flameheart wrote: »

For PvE at least you want Destro on your single target damage skill bar and two swords on your second bar for AoE damage. You prefer the two swords over 2h because of more spell damage and maybe another set bonus. You prefer Destro for the single target bar because of light/medium attack weaving.

Now I'll chime in with my own questions as I am starting a PvE Magicka NB for solo questing. I'm wondering why people aren't using actual NB class skills? People here are talking using Staff instead of DW for single target yet Magicka-based NB class skills count as spells so using DW with class skills would also benefit from DW's spell damage increase and extra set bonus. I was planning on DW for main bar for single target thereby benefiting NB class skill with DW spell damage increase... and then putting inferno staff on secondary for using Sap Essence and Elemental Ring for AoE... is this not a good solo PvE option?

I have no opinion for solo PvE, but for endgame group PvE:

Because general opinon is (or lets say was not long ago and my guess is, it still is), that Destro staff + class damage skill + light/medium attack weaving delivers still a higher dps output as using dualwield + more spell damage + class skill (weaving with two swords won't give you any remarkable extra dps, because the light/medium attacks from the swords scale with weapon damage) for single target dps aka bosses.

...and especially for Magicka NBs, you need to weave anyways, otherwise you won't ever see an Asssassin's Will execute, which delivers remarkable damage (that thing is able to crit for up to 61k dps in a raid buffed enviroment). So if you are forced to weave anyways, weave at least with a light/medium attack that is supported by your spell damage value at all and partially by your Thaumaturg CP section. In Addition you gain 10% spell penetration by Destro staff passives at least for your light/medium attacks. It's arguable how much the later one will add in dps in total (I have seen no math about that), but nevertheless it's a bonus.

There are different levels of weaving btw, some weave just main attack skill (Funnel Health or Swallow Soul) with medium attacks, some are able to weave with light attacks (this is pretty insane and finger breaking for a NB, it needs a pretty good timing), some - the true masters - weave all skill executes with light/medium attacks or interrupt support/buff skills with blocks to shorten the animation time and just weave the direct and DoT skills with light or medium attacks.

Besides that, you don't need Elemental Ring AND Sap Essence. Usually there is no place for Elemental Ring on your skill bar, spamming Sap is enough. The DoT of Elemental Ring might add some extra damage due to to the DoT effect, but the damage output is pretty weak, not worth to sacrifice a skill slot for that and to sacrifice dps because your will lose AoE dps. Using a Destro staff for weaving light/medium attacks into Sap Essence for AoE damage might be an idea, but they will count just to one target, while your overall damage increase based on your higher spell damage bonus because of the two swords equipped, will count to all targets you hit with your Sap Essence skill.

For Solo play and leveling a magicka NB I have just this advice:

-have Sap Essence, Funnel Health/Swallow Soul and maybe Impale on your skill bars and maybe a resto staff with Healing Ward on your second skill bar from lvl 1 to VR16 (ssecond skill bar, Healing Ward and Impale will need some time to unlock it).

-otherwise clutter all other skill slots with skills you wanne level. You don't need to use or have the appropriate weapon equipped to level a skill.

Reorx_Holybeard

Spearshard wrote: »

I'm pretty sure they nerfed the extra spell damage you got from the weapoms, you can't equip dual wield and get the higher spell damage that you could before. The only advantage dual wield gives now is the passive dual blunt and blade for the 6% damage increase for swords. I tried it the other day on my mag NB and spell damage does not go up more than about 8 points for dual wield as compared to a destro staff. Still, a 6% passive damage increase is nice. But you lose the damage from medium attack weaving, and heavy attacks to gain magica back.

It seems to be working fine for me. 2301 Spell Damage with an Inferno Staff and 2568 SD with Dual Wield Swords just now. Make sure you are using the same quality/level weapons when you are comparing things. There are some UI issues that prevent your stats from being 100% correct. Try unequipping everything and equipping it again and see if that changes anything. Also try looking at your tooltip damage instead of character stats. For example in DW my Puncturing Strikes does 1177 dmg but only 1050 dmg with a 2H Staff.

If you still have issues with SD not working you can try posting your exact build and equipment to see where the problem is.

Destruent

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

Xantaria wrote: »

If you just want to know 2h or DW: the answer is DW. It is more spell damage and extra set bonus and same effect from the passive.

DW is less spell damage that 2H weapon but they are both more spell damage than staff. I use DW to get the extra set bonus.

Wrong, forget that as soon as possible!!!!! As magicka-dps you want to go DW or destro, nothing else!

ADarklore

Flameheart wrote: »

...and especially for Magicka NBs, you need to weave anyways, otherwise you won't ever see an Asssassin's Will execute, which delivers remarkable damage (that thing is able to crit for up to 61k dps in a raid buffed enviroment). So if you are forced to weave anyways, weave at least with a light/medium attack that is supported by your Thaumaturg CP section. In Addition you gain 10% spell penetration by Destro staff passives at least for your light/medium attacks. It's arguable how much the later one will add in dps in total (I have seen no math about that), but nevertheless it's a bonus.

This is why I put Assassin's Will on my secondary AoE bar along with Elemental Ring and Sap Essence.

Also, I honestly feel completely stupid as a Magicka Nightblade assassin running around with a staff as my primary weapon while using gap closer melee attacks and magical knives. To me DW feels and looks more of the part even if I never actually use the DW weapon- at least it fits what I think a Nightblade looks like- and for me- appearance is huge... and it gives spell damage bonus and extra set bonus.

Flameheart

ADarklore wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

...and especially for Magicka NBs, you need to weave anyways, otherwise you won't ever see an Asssassin's Will execute, which delivers remarkable damage (that thing is able to crit for up to 61k dps in a raid buffed enviroment). So if you are forced to weave anyways, weave at least with a light/medium attack that is supported by your Thaumaturg CP section. In Addition you gain 10% spell penetration by Destro staff passives at least for your light/medium attacks. It's arguable how much the later one will add in dps in total (I have seen no math about that), but nevertheless it's a bonus.

This is why I put Assassin's Will on my secondary AoE bar along with Elemental Ring and Sap Essence.

Also, I honestly feel completely stupid as a Magicka Nightblade assassin running around with a staff as my primary weapon while using gap closer melee attacks and magical knives. To me DW feels and looks more of the part even if I never actually use the DW weapon- at least it fits what I think a Nightblade looks like- and for me- appearance is huge... and it gives spell damage bonus and extra set bonus.

From an aesthetic point of view you are right, it needs some time to get used to being some sort of rogue class but fighting with a magic user staff, but ok, that's how that game works, if you wanne max dps by weaving and animation cancelling.

For build advice I think this a good base set up: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pve-magicka-dps-by-iwm/

or this:

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/magicka-nightblade-dps-for-2-2/

Ok, you might put Elemental Ring for Proximity Detonation (AR 7 skill, I still don't have it too..), but to be honest, putting Structured Entropy (+ 20% spell damage) in there (if you aren't running a pot build) might make more sense. In addition you might need some sort of joker slot for special encounters (Harness Magicka, Crushing Shock for interrupting etc.).

RatedChaotic

Hail to the new magicka nb hunter killer build. Magicka nbs we can find you and kill you now. lol

ADarklore

It is interesting reading some of these builds because they are clearly geared for specific types of content and from a min/maxer perspective not usually from the "fun to play" or "this works" perspective. I just laugh comparing the two builds posted in the links above and one says "Altmer" is the best, Dunmer next, Breton next... the next build says, "Dunmer" is the best, Altmer/Breton are equal. Just goes to show that most of these build ideas are simply personal 'opinions' and are not necessarily meant to be taken as gospel. Even the ones based on numbers, they are still based upon player skill, gear, level, etc... so not always easily duplicated.

With my Magicka Sorc, I use Elemental Ring all the time and not only does it wipe out most things in a few spams, but also returns massive amounts of Magicka to allow me to continue fighting if need be; not everything needs to be based upon how hard it hits... sometimes numbers sound great on paper but may not always work as well in practice because so many variable impact damage output, survivability and sustainability. Group builds will be different from solo-only builds because soloists need to be a true jack of all trades- DPS, healer, tank and controller. Thus, I try to design my builds based upon being all rolls because I only solo PvE.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Current Meta for PVE DPS is Destro/DW. Destro for main bar on ranged attacks and weaving. DW on back bar for AoE, and execute. DW gives more spell damage and gives you an extra gear slot. You typically dont weave AoE or Executes, so swords make sense here.

There was a time when 2H was better if you were over 40k magic. That is no longer the case from my understanding.

PVP is different ballgame. You see all sorts of combos depending on what you are after: Destro/DW, Destro/Resto, S+B/Destro or Resto, etc.

Flameheart

ADarklore wrote: »

It is interesting reading some of these builds because they are clearly geared for specific types of content and from a min/maxer perspective not usually from the "fun to play" or "this works" perspective. I just laugh comparing the two builds posted in the links above and one says "Altmer" is the best, Dunmer next, Breton next... the next build says, "Dunmer" is the best, Altmer/Breton are equal. Just goes to show that most of these build ideas are simply personal 'opinions' and are not necessarily meant to be taken as gospel. Even the ones based on numbers, they are still based upon player skill, gear, level, etc... so not always easily duplicated.

With my Magicka Sorc, I use Elemental Ring all the time and not only does it wipe out most things in a few spams, but also returns massive amounts of Magicka to allow me to continue fighting if need be; not everything needs to be based upon how hard it hits... sometimes numbers sound great on paper but may not always work as well in practice because so many variable impact damage output, survivability and sustainability. Group builds will be different from solo-only builds because soloists need to be a true jack of all trades- DPS, healer, tank and controller. Thus, I try to design my builds based upon being all rolls because I only solo PvE.

As you already mentioned, Sorcerer and Solo PvE in compare to Nightblade and group play are two totally different things. As a Sorc you might use Elemental Ring, because you don't have a true AoE class skill. As NB you have a class AoE skill which inflicts the same raw direct damage, gives you a 20% spell damage buff and heals the whole group in a group environment while fighting trash packs. You might waste a slot for Elemental Ring to get an additional but pretty weak AoE DoT so the trash pack dies within 5,8 seconds instead of 6 seconds, but you might just spam Sap Essence, heal your whole group and maybe use the skill slot for another skill.

You are right, that those builds aren't set in stone, but they are a pretty good start (especially if you read WHY the author made the build like that) and in the following thread the TO has to defend his build with arguments. In addition here and there you even find a sparkle of math.

Choosing a race is still underlayed with some sort of personal flavor and the fact, that nobody yet has truly measured race choice for dps output and some classes have advantages and disadvantages which are hard to compare with each other.
Be it Altmer, Breton or Dunmer, my guess is none of those are a wrong choice. A Bosmer or Redguard might be still playable, but maybe not the best choice from a min/max perspective.

PS: The issue with such threads here is in truth, that many TOs do not have a clue to ask something while giving the right information in addition...(stamina, magicka, PvE, PvP, solo play, group play, trials, special encounters, specific bosses etc.).

ADarklore

Flameheart wrote: »

As you already mentioned, Sorcerer and Solo PvE in compare to Nightblade and group play are two totally different things. As a Sorc you might use Elemental Ring, because you don't have a true AoE class skill. As NB you have a class AoE skill which inflicts the same raw direct damage, gives you a 20% spell damage buff and heals the whole group in a group environment while fighting trash packs. You might waste a slot for Elemental Ring to get an additional but pretty weak AoE DoT so the trash pack dies within 5,8 seconds instead of 6 seconds, but you might just spam Sap Essence, heal your whole group and maybe use the skill slot for another skill.

Thanks for the info... considering I don't have Sap Essence unlocked yet I'm trying to 'pre-plan' my build so I can figure out which ability trees to level first. I know how effective Elemental Ring is with my Sorc, especially slapping on Hardened Ward and Power Surge, and I pretty much walk through Public Dungeons mobs. If Sap Essence is as strong as that- which would seem to combine Elemental Ring and Power Surge, then I will definitely drop Elemental Ring.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Current Meta for PVE DPS is Destro/DW. Destro for main bar on ranged attacks and weaving. DW on back bar for AoE, and execute. DW gives more spell damage and gives you an extra gear slot. You typically dont weave AoE or Executes, so swords make sense here.

Since it appears I can skip Elemental Ring AoE and just use Sap Essence, using DW on the back bar now makes more sense.