Can we talk about stealth?

Mystikkal

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

There has not been enough attention granted to stealth. I'm not talking about NBs stealthing. I'm talking more about groups in Cyrodill stealthing. I understand that stealth is an important tactic... but there is a fine line between tactics and cheesy. A group of 30 groups sitting in stealth for 3 minutes waiting for a 6 man to jump on a resource is not tactics, it's just blame dumb. An outnumbered group jumping into stealth and running around the tower to hit a zerg, is tactics. We really need to rethink stealth:

• There needs to be some negative effect for staying in stealth too long (e.g. degenerate stamina after 5-10 seconds).
• You should not crit out of stealth (buff NBs in another way to compensate)
• You should be able to breakfree when knocked off a horse (like the old days)
• What else?

~Mystikkal

Soulac

Mystikkal wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

There has not been enough attention granted to stealth. I'm not talking about NBs stealthing. I'm talking more about groups in Cyrodill stealthing. I understand that stealth is an important tactic... but there is a fine line between tactics and cheesy. A group of 30 groups sitting in stealth for 3 minutes waiting for a 6 man to jump on a resource is not tactics, it's just blame dumb. An outnumbered group jumping into stealth and running around the tower to hit a zerg, is tactics. We really need to rethink stealth:

• There needs to be some negative effect for staying in stealth too long (e.g. degenerate stamina after 5-10 seconds).
• You should not crit out of stealth (buff NBs in another way to compensate)
• You should be able to breakfree when knocked off a horse (like the old days)
• What else?

~Mystikkal

Agree on everything except the fact that being knocked off from a horse should come with consequences.

OdinForge

I feel like this post was made in response to a certain resource incident. Exaggerated if so, if not whatever.

_Chaos

#BuffRevealingFlare

Make groups afraid to be caught in stealth. Give it a 100% 1 hit chance if player has been stealth for X amount of time.

Psilent

Mystikkal wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

There has not been enough attention granted to stealth. I'm not talking about NBs stealthing. I'm talking more about groups in Cyrodill stealthing. I understand that stealth is an important tactic... but there is a fine line between tactics and cheesy. A group of 30 groups sitting in stealth for 3 minutes waiting for a 6 man to jump on a resource is not tactics, it's just blame dumb. An outnumbered group jumping into stealth and running around the tower to hit a zerg, is tactics. We really need to rethink stealth:

• There needs to be some negative effect for staying in stealth too long (e.g. degenerate stamina after 5-10 seconds).
• You should not crit out of stealth (buff NBs in another way to compensate)
• You should be able to breakfree when knocked off a horse (like the old days)
• What else?

~Mystikkal

I applaud that group of 30 for not being detected; do you have any idea how tough it is to get 30 people to not get detected for 3 minutes?

1. No, there are plenty of counters to stealth. Either scout around the resource/keep using detection potions or spam revealing flare everywhere.

2. This is fine, if you don't like the damage out of stealth you have Radiant Magelight to prevent it.

3. If you tire your horse out to the point where you fall, you deserve to die. Maybe next time show your animal a bit of compassion..

Sounds like a group just dove headfirst into a resource without scouting and got wrecked. Learn from your mistakes and get better don't come crying on the forums asking for nerfs.

GuyNamedSean

I don't agree with this. I think there should be penalties to group stealth, but individual stealth works fine. And that makes sense to me. If you're in a crowd, it should be difficult to hide and use stealth tactics,

Maybe make it to where a group of six or more (because six tends to be the AoE magic number) they have an increased detection radius for each person. Or make it to where you getting detected would also reveal nearby allies that are in stealth.

The idea of removing crit from stealth would ruin so much for me. That has been the driving force for stealth in Elder Scrolls all along. You deal more damage coming out of stealth. Removing that would remove pretty much the entire reason for anyone to go into stealth.

I'd also support a measure that prevents going invisible in certain circumstances. I am a Nightblade, I make use of Cloak when I'm trying to be stealthy, but I don't like the idea of someone just going *poof* in the middle of combat to try and escape. Maybe have an exponential cost increase like Dodge Roll and Streak?

Maulkin

I don't agree with how most of it works form a PvP perspective. Invisibility/Stealth should be only a NB thing if you ask me. You shouldn't have whole armies stealthing literally 7m away from you.

Also the guaranteed crit + extra stealth damage + stun is too much and is playing havoc with their attempts to regulate damage. In their attempts to increase TTK they nerfed overall damage by another 35% which was to the huge detriment of classes/builds with no burst damage and rendered all the DoTs useless in the process. And we STILL see instakills 9/10 times because of stealth mechanics.

Do I expect them to change it? No. Stealth is fun in PvE and it's part of Elder Scroll game culture since Morrowind I believe. The fact there's issues with it in PvP is just a minor inconvenience.

Etaniel

I would increase the detection range for each member in the group that is stealthing.

Ishammael

I posted a "remove bonus dmg from stealth" thread a while back and got dog-piled on.

Regardless, agree with the OP.

Soris

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/215714/remove-crouch#latest
I had a thread about it. I would love if they just remove crouching all together. Bcs it aint cool

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO

I don't agree as such, but stealthiness ability should be based on what armour you are wearing. And detecting should be based on your ability to stealth. If you are a sneaky character, then you know all the hiding places so you should easily be able to spot a person who is not as sneaky.An assassin who relies on the shadows should be laughing their heads off whilst watching the DK in heavy armour sneaking over the hill.

Publius_Scipio

Etaniel wrote: »

I would increase the detection range for each member in the group that is stealthing.

Simple and best thing said in here. If a group of x (need to agree upon a number) are all stealthed together in close proximity of each other, have the detection radius increase for them.

I don't agree with not being able to crit out of stealth. That's where I think crit chance makes sense at all. You ambush someone you give them a KO.

ScruffyWhiskers

Wow. Now that I think about it, I'd forgotten what it was like to be able to stun somebody off a horse since 1.6 and the switch to "magicka" for a nb.

Knocking somebody off a horse has gotten progressively harder for non stam players. Everybody seems to have max stamina nowadays and I get a burst of joy when somebody falls off their horse from the fist hit of Crippling Grasp. But that is a rare thing. I'd like to hijack this thread and turn it into a magicka melee attacks from stealth should get a stealth stun and damage bonus

Seriously though, I think this game design handles stealth brilliantly. Yes, it's not "realistic" but it does add to the fun of the game play. I've had more fun stumbling on a group of 24 players all huddled up in a shadowed clump and have my heart jump out of my chest. Last time that happened I came back with a proximity detonation and bats and watched them all flee in panic. Didn't kill a single one but it was fun.

Derra

Etaniel wrote: »

I would increase the detection range for each member in the group that is stealthing.

Add to that a constant stamina cost for crouching. Perma stealth is bad for pvp.

Add in armor bonuses or a trait that enables you to perma crouch.

ScruffyWhiskers

Derra wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

I would increase the detection range for each member in the group that is stealthing.

Add to that a constant stamina cost for crouching. Perma stealth is bad for pvp.

Add in armor bonuses or a trait that enables you to perma crouch.

My first thought as a former programmer is the computational cost and network traffic to be constantly assessing relative position and then updating detection range.

I have to disagree about perma stealth. Instead of finding ways to restrict or limit certain abilities or play styles, I think we should lift up others IF there is a need. Being a stealth type player, I don't see a need but don't mind a good debate.

Oh and nerf magicka sorcs!

Joy_Division

Not sure I agree with the distinction that when a small group succeeds in a stealth bomb somehow that is tactics but when a larger one does the same, it is cheesy.

Stealth problems would largely go away if ZoS made it so camo hunter did not proc multiples times on a stealth attack, there was another skill/ability players could use to counter it that wasn't a toggle, the best anti-stealth mechanic in the game wasn't a potion.'

Mystikkal

Etaniel wrote: »

I would increase the detection range for each member in the group that is stealthing.

I could get behind this as well.

Psilent wrote: »

Mystikkal wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

There has not been enough attention granted to stealth. I'm not talking about NBs stealthing. I'm talking more about groups in Cyrodill stealthing. I understand that stealth is an important tactic... but there is a fine line between tactics and cheesy. A group of 30 groups sitting in stealth for 3 minutes waiting for a 6 man to jump on a resource is not tactics, it's just blame dumb. An outnumbered group jumping into stealth and running around the tower to hit a zerg, is tactics. We really need to rethink stealth:

• There needs to be some negative effect for staying in stealth too long (e.g. degenerate stamina after 5-10 seconds).
• You should not crit out of stealth (buff NBs in another way to compensate)
• You should be able to breakfree when knocked off a horse (like the old days)
• What else?

~Mystikkal

I applaud that group of 30 for not being detected; do you have any idea how tough it is to get 30 people to not get detected for 3 minutes?

1. No, there are plenty of counters to stealth. Either scout around the resource/keep using detection potions or spam revealing flare everywhere.

2. This is fine, if you don't like the damage out of stealth you have Radiant Magelight to prevent it.

3. If you tire your horse out to the point where you fall, you deserve to die. Maybe next time show your animal a bit of compassion..

Sounds like a group just dove headfirst into a resource without scouting and got wrecked. Learn from your mistakes and get better don't come crying on the forums asking for nerfs.

You applaud a group of 30 going into stealth and stacking on crown.. not sure why. stack on crown and get in stealth. How would you like a group of 3-6 to scout a resource first? drop caltrops and flares everywhere? let's be realistic here.

What's your @ name in game? We can setup a time for me to teach you how to "get better".

Joy_Division wrote: »

Not sure I agree with the distinction that when a small group succeeds in a stealth bomb somehow that is tactics but when a larger one does the same, it is cheesy.

Fair point. There needs to be more downside to going into stealth, besides just moving slower or loosing stam when moving.

kadar

Joy_Division wrote: »

Not sure I agree with the distinction that when a small group succeeds in a stealth bomb somehow that is tactics but when a larger one does the same, it is cheesy.

Stealth problems would largely go away if ZoS made it so camo hunter did not proc multiples times on a stealth attack, there was another skill/ability players could use to counter it that wasn't a toggle, the best anti-stealth mechanic in the game wasn't a potion.'

Agree. Pls rethink definition of "tactics."

I think stealth is a cool mechanic in this game. If a zerg of 30 people wants to waste their time camping a random resource to wipe your group of 6, it's their loss.

Of all the things ZOS needs to fix...this is not one.

Ffastyl

GuyNamedSean wrote: »

make it to where you getting detected would also reveal nearby allies that are in stealth.

I think this would add a fine mechanic to stealth in PvP and even PvE. Having one person blow anyone nearby's cover creates a cascading effect in large, clumped up groups where the entire zerg is revealed in moments. It would encourage players to spread out while in stealth and to not generally form large groups.

But on the flipside it does hinder coordinated group play, one of the few counters to mindless zergs. On a level playing field, this mechanic would create new and perhaps needed dynamic but when a medium size group is trying to hide from a large group? This mechanic could make that impossible.

This idea might be harder to implement than Publius's recommendation, so depends on the urgency.

danno8

Etaniel wrote: »

I would increase the detection range for each member in the group that is stealthing.

And watch the server melt down to goo due to the constant new stream of "distance to other players" calculations.

WreckfulAbandon

Soulac wrote: »

Mystikkal wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

There has not been enough attention granted to stealth. I'm not talking about NBs stealthing. I'm talking more about groups in Cyrodill stealthing. I understand that stealth is an important tactic... but there is a fine line between tactics and cheesy. A group of 30 groups sitting in stealth for 3 minutes waiting for a 6 man to jump on a resource is not tactics, it's just blame dumb. An outnumbered group jumping into stealth and running around the tower to hit a zerg, is tactics. We really need to rethink stealth:

• There needs to be some negative effect for staying in stealth too long (e.g. degenerate stamina after 5-10 seconds).
• You should not crit out of stealth (buff NBs in another way to compensate)
• You should be able to breakfree when knocked off a horse (like the old days)
• What else?

~Mystikkal

Agree on everything except the fact that being knocked off from a horse should come with consequences.

What never made sense to me is that with such a huge penalty for being knocked off your horse, you can't mount in combat. If someone who I was killing made the risky move to jump on their horse in a bid to get away and managed to escape, I would accept it. Making gutsy moves should be high-risk, high-reward, not to mention temps and DK's could actually start escaping fights.

Alucardo

Etaniel wrote: »

I would increase the detection range for each member in the group that is stealthing.

I think we can stop the thread here. You're not going to find a better solution.

JDar

Alucardo wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

I would increase the detection range for each member in the group that is stealthing.

I think we can stop the thread here. You're not going to find a better solution.

Solution to something I am not really even sure is a problem.

Recremen

Stealth is working just fine as it is, thanks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqEVCTMkBnI

Forestd16b14_ESO

Mystikkal wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

There has not been enough attention granted to stealth. I'm not talking about NBs stealthing. I'm talking more about groups in Cyrodill stealthing. I understand that stealth is an important tactic... but there is a fine line between tactics and cheesy. A group of 30 groups sitting in stealth for 3 minutes waiting for a 6 man to jump on a resource is not tactics, it's just blame dumb. An outnumbered group jumping into stealth and running around the tower to hit a zerg, is tactics. We really need to rethink stealth:

• There needs to be some negative effect for staying in stealth too long (e.g. degenerate stamina after 5-10 seconds).
• You should not crit out of stealth
• What else?

~Mystikkal

Fixed.

revonine

JDar wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

I would increase the detection range for each member in the group that is stealthing.

I think we can stop the thread here. You're not going to find a better solution.

Solution to something I am not really even sure is a problem.

I dunno I really like his suggestion but on the other hand I kinda agree with you - if 10 people wanna waste their time ganking one guy off a horse to prove their immense battle prowess then let them.

Recremen

As an FYI, Line of Sight and Stealth are pretty much the only remaining tools for small groups to take on large groups, so keep that in mind when criticizing how the mechanic works. A team that maneuvers better used to be able to take on far larger numbers because they could get the drop on an enemy team while their guard was down and their buffs dropped, meaning they could take out a certain number of people before anyone could react and therefore even up the odds. Now you can't take on quite as many, thanks to the damage changes, but it's still an important factor when you're outnumbered.

Psilent

Mystikkal wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

I would increase the detection range for each member in the group that is stealthing.

I could get behind this as well.

Psilent wrote: »

Mystikkal wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

There has not been enough attention granted to stealth. I'm not talking about NBs stealthing. I'm talking more about groups in Cyrodill stealthing. I understand that stealth is an important tactic... but there is a fine line between tactics and cheesy. A group of 30 groups sitting in stealth for 3 minutes waiting for a 6 man to jump on a resource is not tactics, it's just blame dumb. An outnumbered group jumping into stealth and running around the tower to hit a zerg, is tactics. We really need to rethink stealth:

• There needs to be some negative effect for staying in stealth too long (e.g. degenerate stamina after 5-10 seconds).
• You should not crit out of stealth (buff NBs in another way to compensate)
• You should be able to breakfree when knocked off a horse (like the old days)
• What else?

~Mystikkal

I applaud that group of 30 for not being detected; do you have any idea how tough it is to get 30 people to not get detected for 3 minutes?

1. No, there are plenty of counters to stealth. Either scout around the resource/keep using detection potions or spam revealing flare everywhere.

2. This is fine, if you don't like the damage out of stealth you have Radiant Magelight to prevent it.

3. If you tire your horse out to the point where you fall, you deserve to die. Maybe next time show your animal a bit of compassion..

Sounds like a group just dove headfirst into a resource without scouting and got wrecked. Learn from your mistakes and get better don't come crying on the forums asking for nerfs.

You applaud a group of 30 going into stealth and stacking on crown.. not sure why. stack on crown and get in stealth. How would you like a group of 3-6 to scout a resource first? drop caltrops and flares everywhere? let's be realistic here.

What's your @ name in game? We can setup a time for me to teach you how to "get better".

Joy_Division wrote: »

Not sure I agree with the distinction that when a small group succeeds in a stealth bomb somehow that is tactics but when a larger one does the same, it is cheesy.

Fair point. There needs to be more downside to going into stealth, besides just moving slower or loosing stam when moving.

I'd love a few 1v1's with you, @name sent, hit me up.

The reason why I disagree is because ultimately this will end up helping the zerg over small group.

ZOS's change would be: "Every second over 10 seconds in stealth will increase the cost of stealth by 33% which will stack." Or something obsurd like that.

glavius

Stealth is the only reason it's possible to solo in this game. Keep it as it is...

Turelus

Mystikkal wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

There has not been enough attention granted to stealth. I'm not talking about NBs stealthing. I'm talking more about groups in Cyrodill stealthing. I understand that stealth is an important tactic... but there is a fine line between tactics and cheesy. A group of 30 groups sitting in stealth for 3 minutes waiting for a 6 man to jump on a resource is not tactics, it's just blame dumb. An outnumbered group jumping into stealth and running around the tower to hit a zerg, is tactics. We really need to rethink stealth:

• There needs to be some negative effect for staying in stealth too long (e.g. degenerate stamina after 5-10 seconds).
• You should not crit out of stealth (buff NBs in another way to compensate)
• You should be able to breakfree when knocked off a horse (like the old days)
• What else?

~Mystikkal

Bolded part.

As a raid leader I can tell you, getting a group of 30 people to sit in stealth AND NOT USE ANY SKILLS!!! is probably the biggest tactical game out there. You know how hard that is, I mean to really get people to sit for 3mins doing literally nothing.

The number of times I have failed an ambush because "Mr wears Engine Guardian set" wanted to buff himself.

revonine

Turelus wrote: »

Mystikkal wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

There has not been enough attention granted to stealth. I'm not talking about NBs stealthing. I'm talking more about groups in Cyrodill stealthing. I understand that stealth is an important tactic... but there is a fine line between tactics and cheesy. A group of 30 groups sitting in stealth for 3 minutes waiting for a 6 man to jump on a resource is not tactics, it's just blame dumb. An outnumbered group jumping into stealth and running around the tower to hit a zerg, is tactics. We really need to rethink stealth:

• There needs to be some negative effect for staying in stealth too long (e.g. degenerate stamina after 5-10 seconds).
• You should not crit out of stealth (buff NBs in another way to compensate)
• You should be able to breakfree when knocked off a horse (like the old days)
• What else?

~Mystikkal

Bolded part.

As a raid leader I can tell you, getting a group of 30 people to sit in stealth AND NOT USE ANY SKILLS!!! is probably the biggest tactical game out there. You know how hard that is, I mean to really get people to sit for 3mins doing literally nothing.

The number of times I have failed an ambush because "Mr wears Engine Guardian set" wanted to buff himself.

lmao and that is why as a NB I hate Engine Guardian.