The combat coding in this game is utter crap

firstdecan

GrimMauKin wrote: »

I've always hated the targeting and the exaggerated range from which you can be hit but I'm having a real problem with the fact that MOBS are not solid to each other and tend to occupy the same space. This makes targeting pretty tough, means that you can get hit by just about everything in a pack simultaneously and can't bottleneck a group of MOBS through landscape features or a doorway.

In general I feel that TESO favours toe-to-to slugfests at the expense of battlefield awareness and placement/mobility.

It took me a while to 'come to terms' with the 'tactical limits' of the game. I agree with the OP that you shouldn't be targetable once LoS is broken, but the game doesn't seem to support that. It's pretty much point and click, it doesn't have the same physics as an FPS. I'm not saying that's good or bad, just making the observation.

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that makes the code crap, I'll leave that judgment to @SirAndy. I would definitely be interested in some of the rationale behind his proclamation.

PinoZino

SirAndy wrote: »

Just because you can't spot bad code doesn't mean others can't. Trying to project your own ignorance onto me still makes you the one who is ignorant.


If you heard the name of the programming language, i've used it. Plus a bunch you probably never heard of. Started out as a machine code programmer in 1978.
I've been working on all sorts of projects in countries all over the world, including many years spent in the gaming industry.

Have you done any profiling on the ESO client app and the client/server communication protocol?
No? Thought so. I have ...

Ah come on Sir Andy,

Don't use authority to back up your false statement. It's always a weak defense.

You were maybe a bit overenthusiastic, but you know very well that you can't 'read' the quality of the code, by using the software.

I know many cowboys who produce *** source code, but deliver software with few bugs and a pretty good UI.

And the opposite is also true.

Callous2208

firstdecan wrote: »

GrimMauKin wrote: »

I've always hated the targeting and the exaggerated range from which you can be hit but I'm having a real problem with the fact that MOBS are not solid to each other and tend to occupy the same space. This makes targeting pretty tough, means that you can get hit by just about everything in a pack simultaneously and can't bottleneck a group of MOBS through landscape features or a doorway.

In general I feel that TESO favours toe-to-to slugfests at the expense of battlefield awareness and placement/mobility.

It took me a while to 'come to terms' with the 'tactical limits' of the game. I agree with the OP that you shouldn't be targetable once LoS is broken, but the game doesn't seem to support that. It's pretty much point and click, it doesn't have the same physics as an FPS. I'm not saying that's good or bad, just making the observation.

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that makes the code crap, I'll leave that judgment to @SirAndy. I would definitely be interested in some of the rationale behind his proclamation.

The rationale is, "I am leet god of coding. Trust me when I tell you it's crap. You know I'm legit, just look how smug I am. Insert I'm so cool bruh smiley emote."

nimander99

You can't just arm chair QB saying code is bad in forums these days w/o getting called out by people who are actually familiar with c++, java etc... and from my very, very limited understanding of writing code, I'm pretty sure you can't tell how good code is by the graphical presentation you look at.


... just saying...

SirAndy

PinoZino wrote: »

you know very well that you can't 'read' the quality of the code, by using the software.

Actually, you can. It's against the TOS and as such not recommended, but most certainly possible.

Let's start with the obvious:

- All the internally used LUA scripts can be data-mined and read in clear text.
- All the rendering shaders can be data-mined and read in clear text.
- All the used 3rd party libraries can be determined and their function call tables can be extracted.
- All the assembly code can be cross referenced with said library functions (including native OS DLL function tables).
- The ESO client memory pages can be examined (and modified!) at runtime.
- The ESO client/server protocol data packets can be sniffed and decoded at runtime.

The result is a fairly complete and accurate code reference as well as a more or less complete data structure reference.

Armed with that and years of experience in profiling and optimizing low level gaming code, one can draw many conclusions to the quality of the programming that went into the ESO app.

SirAndy

Callous2208 wrote: »

The rationale is, "I am leet god of coding. Trust me when I tell you it's crap. You know I'm legit, just look how smug I am. Insert I'm so cool bruh smiley emote."

PinoZino

SirAndy wrote: »

Actually, you can. It's against the TOS and as such not recommended, but most certainly possible.

Let's start with the obvious:

- All the internally used LUA scripts can be data-mined and read in clear text.
- All the rendering shaders can be data-mined and read in clear text.
- All the used 3rd party libraries can be determined and their function call tables can be extracted.
- All the assembly code can be cross referenced with said library functions (including native OS DLL function tables).
- The ESO client memory pages can be examined (and modified!) at runtime.
- The ESO client/server protocol data packets can be sniffed and decoded at runtime.

The result is a fairly complete and accurate code reference as well as a more or less complete data structure reference.

Armed with that and years of experience in profiling and optimizing low level gaming code, one can draw many conclusions to the quality of the programming that went into the ESO app.

It gives you an idea, but doesn't tell all. Besides, that's a pretty heavy task that would cost you some time.

You spend that time or do you have a life?

Callous2208

PinoZino wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

Actually, you can. It's against the TOS and as such not recommended, but most certainly possible.

Let's start with the obvious:

- All the internally used LUA scripts can be data-mined and read in clear text.
- All the rendering shaders can be data-mined and read in clear text.
- All the used 3rd party libraries can be determined and their function call tables can be extracted.
- All the assembly code can be cross referenced with said library functions (including native OS DLL function tables).
- The ESO client memory pages can be examined (and modified!) at runtime.
- The ESO client/server protocol data packets can be sniffed and decoded at runtime.

The result is a fairly complete and accurate code reference as well as a more or less complete data structure reference.

Armed with that and years of experience in profiling and optimizing low level gaming code, one can draw many conclusions to the quality of the programming that went into the ESO app.

It gives you an idea, but doesn't tell all. Besides, that's a pretty heavy task that would cost you some time.

You spend that time or do you have a life?

40 years in the biz I'd say he's got the time. His grandkids can't visit every day now that they're in high school.

SirAndy

PinoZino wrote: »

It gives you an idea, but doesn't tell all. Besides, that's a pretty heavy task that would cost you some time.
You spend that time or do you have a life?

I never said "tell all". But certainly tell a lot. Also helps to have the right tools for the task.

I spend 10-12 hours a day in front of the computer anyways, plenty of time to get distracted.

PinoZino

Callous2208 wrote: »

40 years in the biz I'd say he's got the time. His grandkids can't visit every day now that they're in high school.

SirAndy

PinoZino wrote: »

That'll be me one day for sure ...

riverdragon72

SirAndy wrote: »

PinoZino wrote: »

you know very well that you can't 'read' the quality of the code, by using the software.

Actually, you can. It's against the TOS and as such not recommended, but most certainly possible.

Let's start with the obvious:

- All the internally used LUA scripts can be data-mined and read in clear text.
- All the rendering shaders can be data-mined and read in clear text.
- All the used 3rd party libraries can be determined and their function call tables can be extracted.
- All the assembly code can be cross referenced with said library functions (including native OS DLL function tables).
- The ESO client memory pages can be examined (and modified!) at runtime.
- The ESO client/server protocol data packets can be sniffed and decoded at runtime.

The result is a fairly complete and accurate code reference as well as a more or less complete data structure reference.

Armed with that and years of experience in profiling and optimizing low level gaming code, one can draw many conclusions to the quality of the programming that went into the ESO app.

Amen Sir.

Xeven

There is no doubt much of the user experience is crap. Mail. Guild Stores. No chat on consoles. PvDoor etc. I blame most of those issues on lack of Dev time. I feel like the investors are pounding on them for some sort of return.

As for the combat, specifically PvP, It's pretty amazing. Player A can toss a frag, light attack, crushing shock and drink a potion while Player B can block that frag, gap close, and begin a wrecking blow all inside the timespan of a second. The illusion is pretty convincing. Hiding the latency and giving the players a very real, responsive feeling of real time strategic combat is pretty awesome, and pretty difficult. Props to those engineers. It's not perfect, but Ive never seen anything like it before.

Mivryna

Seems more like an issue with geometry. Physics can be really taxing on a server that's also handling tons of player input. Raycasting in particular needs to be as efficient and minimalistic as possible. Sometimes that means skipping the physics functions required to double-check the validity of other physics functions.

It is a fine balance to manage.

rootimus

riverdragon72 wrote: »

i am so ****ing sick of being targeted through walls, sewer corridors huge granite cliffs, around corners, etc trying to escape the over glomming zergs, only to be targeted, cc'd sheild bashed, charged and what ever the hell else while I should be on a semi clear escape route. WTF.

Working as intended?

RSram

IMO most of the issues are due to SERVER LAG: The server's inability to keep up with the game combat system. This has not the same thing as your Internet lag or latency.

The more I think about it, It seems to me that the combat in ESO is really calculated in 2D space, not 3D, it’s just ESO playing tricks with your mind

My biggest combat irritation (beside the OP) is the soft targeting system: It sucks big time! I can't count how many times I wasted mana on an ability that targeted a snake or lizard at the foot of the NPC that I was trying to kill. It even sucks big time when you waste your ultimate for this same reason. This is one of the reasons why I turn off the grass!

Why do some spells become inactive when you swap the weapons bar and others don't? It is really stupid that for some spells you have to waste two weapons slots to effectively use them. I get that the weapon spells depend on the active weapon, but the class spells do not.

I also hate fighting monsters in or around shallow water because not all skills work constantly in this environment.

... And then there are times where I can't place the AOE circle where I want because the terrain around the NPC is too irregular!

...And don't get me started about those phase shifting moments where your enemy disappears with ten percent health and then reappears 100 percent rejuvenated out of thin.

... And finally, how about those phase shifting alligators that appears out of nowhere: