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shield stacking / shield breaker set
Grimbim
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I followed the discussions regarding the shield breaker set on pts and now on live. Soon they became toxic and people brought up a lot of irrational arguments and spitefulness. Because of that, these discussions will go nowhere. I tried to point out the problems and made some suggestions how to handle them.
The central problem is the shieldstacking itself. It was already powerful in 1.5, it became completely op in 1.6 and it's still very strong in 1.7. And the critics are right, no class should provide extreme mobility, defense and offense at the same time.
The point is, instead of addressing the actual problem, ZOS released the shield breaker set. Considering on how much unmitigated and bypassing damage it does and that it's not affected by the cyrodiil debuffs like any other ability, it is way too strong at the moment. But that's not really the point. Enough people said so already and explained it.
To put it straight, there should not be a set, which is a completely hardcounter against the only defense mechanism of an entire class. (Of course you can try to counter the set with healing springs etc. but to be honest, if your enemy isn't completely incapable, he will wreck you without effort). Additional other classes or playstyles shouldn't need an entire 5p set to be able to counter the stupid shield stacking!
My suggestion is to tune down the shield breaker set or remove it, create something useful for stamina builds... AND to prevent shield stacking by allowing just one shield at the same time to be active on players.
Since this idea isn't really new and ZOS didn't seem to be able to make this work in the past, maybe they should try another approach and remove the bubbles from annulment and steadfast ward and change these abilities.
greetings
The central problem is the shieldstacking itself. It was already powerful in 1.5, it became completely op in 1.6 and it's still very strong in 1.7. And the critics are right, no class should provide extreme mobility, defense and offense at the same time.
The point is, instead of addressing the actual problem, ZOS released the shield breaker set. Considering on how much unmitigated and bypassing damage it does and that it's not affected by the cyrodiil debuffs like any other ability, it is way too strong at the moment. But that's not really the point. Enough people said so already and explained it.
To put it straight, there should not be a set, which is a completely hardcounter against the only defense mechanism of an entire class. (Of course you can try to counter the set with healing springs etc. but to be honest, if your enemy isn't completely incapable, he will wreck you without effort). Additional other classes or playstyles shouldn't need an entire 5p set to be able to counter the stupid shield stacking!
My suggestion is to tune down the shield breaker set or remove it, create something useful for stamina builds... AND to prevent shield stacking by allowing just one shield at the same time to be active on players.
Since this idea isn't really new and ZOS didn't seem to be able to make this work in the past, maybe they should try another approach and remove the bubbles from annulment and steadfast ward and change these abilities.
greetings
2
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CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Anything other than this band-aid fix would be preferable to me at this point, but unless all shields were heavily reworked to stand on their own there could be issues with a change like that (no shield stacking).0 -
Leandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭People complaining about shield breaker set should think about slotting defensive rune.0 -
Leandor✭✭✭✭✭
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Chances are you are not basing your defense on shield stacks.RoxyPhoenix wrote: »0 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
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Chances are you are not basing your defense on shield stacks.RoxyPhoenix wrote: »
What about people who say, only use one shield? You don't need to shield stack to be hit by this set.1 -
Leandor✭✭✭✭✭
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Since the set is only working in PvP, I'll base my answer on PvP.
What about people who say, only use one shield? You don't need to shield stack to be hit by this set.
Chances are you are not basing your defense on shield stacks.RoxyPhoenix wrote: »
Everyone, irrespective of class, build and playstyle does need to do something in order to survive. Dragonknights usually go with high physical/magic resistance and self heals (formerly dragon blood, nowadays vigor or resto), Templars similar and nightblades cloak/dodge. Sorcerers have little other options then shields, hence they have the strongest shield in game (yes, hardened ward is stronger than barrier since it can be spammed).
Why would a templar use his class shield in a solo situation? Not for survival, certainly, it is way too small for that even if you stack health. No, there is little use nowadays since it does not protect from ranged interrupts anymore. If you are still using your class shield as a templar, you may have to adjust to the new situation anyways.
As a nightblade, you don't even have a class shield, so going cloak or cloak/dodge is a much better bet for defense, even with the dodge nerf.
The generally available shields (Annulment and Healing ward) are special purpose more than anything. Using Annulment or morphs against a stamina build is quite useless anyways, so let's exclude that for the time being. Healing ward itself does a ~1.5k heal on application, so if you start using it if under a shieldbreaker attack, you can negate the damage at least a couple seconds, enough to go on the offensive.
No, the main target of this set are the sorcerers and their dependence on shields as a defensive mechanism. Since I currently main a sorc, I feel that I can comment on that point. In any 1v1 situation, I can use the same tools as before (hardened ward and healing ward) to negate the incoming damage long enough to go on the offense, since all other damage is still soaked up and light attacks do not interrupt or CC.
The only change I made is defensive rune in lieu of entropy. Using defensive rune gives me the head warning and allows me to retaliate in time, hence my above comment. I have adopted a much more offensive style, necessary alone from the BE nerf, and with that little change to my build I can still pull it off. I feel that the meta will change from stacking raw damage to a more sustainable setup, even for sorcerers.
Even with stacking raw damage, the battle spirit debuff will prevent the 1 second kills that dominated 1.6. Yes, I am aware that there will be players who still pull it off, but those are the top end and have little to do with the exploit riddled headshot game that was prevalent.
Even against shieldbreaker, you now have time to react. The problem is less the shieldbreaker set itself, but more the fact that all of us have to get used to react differently than before. I know that my instinct when attacked in 1.6 was "shield shield shield get away, get away, come on.... puh. Now let me turn around and kill that mentally challenged guy who tried to follow me, depleting all his resources". This simply does not work anymore.
Now, you should turn around and kill that bugger.
I think the main complainers about shield breaker are actually the 1vX sorcerers. Because as soon as you are up against two shieldbreaker users, a shield is the surest way to get killed along with not using shields. Basically, yes you are out of luck. If it is a 1v2 and both of those use shieldbreaker, they will get little kills because it won't help them at all against anyone not build around shields.
I am okay with that change. I may be one of a few only, I understand that, but that is my opinion anyways.
Now, in any group vs group situation, the heals will more than equalize the shield breaker damage, especially since it is single target only. It takes an incredibly focused group to actually pull this of as an advantage and they are severely limiting themselves against those that don't use shields. I won't go into details on this, but the issues are quite similar. You'd need more than just one or two shieldbreakers and they need to be extremely coordinated to be effective, again something that some may pull off, but not many.
I apologize for my snide posts before, but this is another one of those "nerf nerf nerf" threads that pop up way before any kind of dependable feedback is available. Just because it destroys the personal playing field of these 1vXers, it does not mean that it is an OP set.Edited by Leandor on September 7, 2015 1:20PM5 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
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Since the set is only working in PvP, I'll base my answer on PvP.
What about people who say, only use one shield? You don't need to shield stack to be hit by this set.
Chances are you are not basing your defense on shield stacks.RoxyPhoenix wrote: »
Everyone, irrespective of class, build and playstyle does need to do something in order to survive. Dragonknights usually go with high physical/magic resistance and self heals (formerly dragon blood, nowadays vigor or resto), Templars similar and nightblades cloak/dodge. Sorcerers have little other options then shields, hence they have the strongest shield in game (yes, hardened ward is stronger than barrier since it can be spammed).
Why would a templar use his class shield in a solo situation? Not for survival, certainly, it is way too small for that even if you stack health. No, there is little use nowadays since it does not protect from ranged interrupts anymore. If you are still using your class shield as a templar, you may have to adjust to the new situation anyways.
As a nightblade, you don't even have a class shield, so going cloak or cloak/dodge is a much better bet for defense, even with the dodge nerf.
The generally available shields (Annulment and Healing ward) are special purpose more than anything. Using Annulment or morphs against a stamina build is quite useless anyways, so let's exclude that for the time being. Healing ward itself does a ~1.5k heal on application, so if you start using it if under a shieldbreaker attack, you can negate the damage at least a couple seconds, enough to go on the offensive.
No, the main target of this set are the sorcerers and their dependence on shields as a defensive mechanism. Since I currently main a sorc, I feel that I can comment on that point. In any 1v1 situation, I can use the same tools as before (hardened ward and healing ward) to negate the incoming damage long enough to go on the offense, since all other damage is still soaked up and light attacks do not interrupt or CC.
The only change I made is defensive rune in lieu of entropy. Using defensive rune gives me the head warning and allows me to retaliate in time, hence my above comment. I have adopted a much more offensive style, necessary alone from the BE nerf, and with that little change to my build I can still pull it off. I feel that the meta will change from stacking raw damage to a more sustainable setup, even for sorcerers.
Even with stacking raw damage, the battle spirit debuff will prevent the 1 second kills that dominated 1.6. Yes, I am aware that there will be players who still pull it off, but those are the top end and have little to do with the exploit riddled headshot game that was prevalent.
Even against shieldbreaker, you now have time to react. The problem is less the shieldbreaker set itself, but more the fact that all of us have to get used to react differently than before. I know that my instinct when attacked in 1.6 was "shield shield shield get away, get away, come on.... puh. Now let me turn around and kill that mentally challenged guy who tried to follow me, depleting all his resources". This simply does not work anymore.
Now, you should turn around and kill that bugger.
I think the main complainers about shield breaker are actually the 1vX sorcerers. Because as soon as you are up against two shieldbreaker users, a shield is the surest way to get killed along with not using shields. Basically, yes you are out of luck. If it is a 1v2 and both of those use shieldbreaker, they will get little kills because it won't help them at all against anyone not build around shields.
I am okay with that change. I may be one of a few only, I understand that, but that is my opinion anyways.
Now, in any group vs group situation, the heals will more than equalize the shield breaker damage, especially since it is single target only. It takes an incredibly focused group to actually pull this of as an advantage and they are severely limiting themselves against those that don't use shields. I won't go into details on this, but the issues are quite similar. You'd need more than just one or two shieldbreakers and they need to be extremely coordinated to be effective, again something that some may pull off, but not many.
I apologize for my snide posts before, but this is another one of those "nerf nerf nerf" threads that pop up way before any kind of dependable feedback is available. Just because it destroys the personal playing field of these 1vXers, it does not mean that it is an OP set.
I'm just paranoid that this set will work better than intended. Irresistible damage directly to health as a counter to any shields at all? There are plenty of ways to get shields, passives, armor sets, mostly designed to trigger when at low health or when you take damage, that these shields are being heavily punished, and if for example you are using heavy armor, or even something like a dk's magma armor, anything you put into resist is now rendered moot because some random shield stuck to you. Its still my opinion that this set is far to broad in its range of effects but i'm fine with its intent, just in thinking this over (likely overthinking) there is to much that can go wrong with it.1 -
Leandor✭✭✭✭✭
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The "easy" way out is to apply these shields before you are endangered by shield breaker and then support yourself with slightly other mechanics. The other thread, while going OTT, had a good advise: just slot rapid regen, if you have the space. This will again provide you with the time to retaliate.
I'm just paranoid that this set will work better than intended. Irresistible damage directly to health as a counter to any shields at all? There are plenty of ways to get shields, passives, armor sets, mostly designed to trigger when at low health or when you take damage, that these shields are being heavily punished, and if for example you are using heavy armor, or even something like a dk's magma armor, anything you put into resist is now rendered moot because some random shield stuck to you. Its still my opinion that this set is far to broad in its range of effects but i'm fine with its intent, just in thinking this over (likely overthinking) there is to much that can go wrong with it.<snip> for brevity
Remember, that guy is spamming light attacks. No block, no outgoing CC, nothing. In 1.6 he would have died in a second. Now it takes 5 seconds. That, or he will very quickly stop using his light attacks and your shields do again what they are supposed to do: protect you. Just kick ass and chew bubble gum.0 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
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The "easy" way out is to apply these shields before you are endangered by shield breaker and then support yourself with slightly other mechanics. The other thread, while going OTT, had a good advise: just slot rapid regen, if you have the space. This will again provide you with the time to retaliate.
I'm just paranoid that this set will work better than intended. Irresistible damage directly to health as a counter to any shields at all? There are plenty of ways to get shields, passives, armor sets, mostly designed to trigger when at low health or when you take damage, that these shields are being heavily punished, and if for example you are using heavy armor, or even something like a dk's magma armor, anything you put into resist is now rendered moot because some random shield stuck to you. Its still my opinion that this set is far to broad in its range of effects but i'm fine with its intent, just in thinking this over (likely overthinking) there is to much that can go wrong with it.<snip> for brevity
Remember, that guy is spamming light attacks. No block, no outgoing CC, nothing. In 1.6 he would have died in a second. Now it takes 5 seconds. That, or he will very quickly stop using his light attacks and your shields do again what they are supposed to do: protect you. Just kick ass and chew bubble gum.
Meh, paranoid over-thinker is paranoid. I'm just in the boat of wait and see at this point, i'll be quiet now.0 -
Grimbim✭✭...
I apologize for my snide posts before, but this is another one of those "nerf nerf nerf" threads that pop up way before any kind of dependable feedback is available. Just because it destroys the personal playing field of these 1vXers, it does not mean that it is an OP set.
I don't share your opinion regarding Shieldbreaker but you came up with reasonable arguments and i understand your position. Apart from this I thought I made it clear that I don't support shield stacking. Shield stacking is the real problem, this set is just a lazy and inadequate attempt to fix this. Even if the set remains in it's current state, shield stacking players will still be a problem for every player who is not using the set. Besides the mechanic of shield stacking itself is dumb and isnt't changed with this.0 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭People complaining about shield breaker set should think about slotting defensive rune.
Good joke.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos0 -
Leandor✭✭✭✭✭
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I have never considered the ability to stack shields as an issue, to be honest. As long as you can refresh one shiepd in time to make opponents unable to break it, this one shield is sufficient. Hardened ward in 1.6 was that powerful. With the reduction now, I have a 9k hardened ward. Makes gameplay a lot more exiting. It will get worse once I have updated my stuff (still on V14 stuff currently), since I guess it will rise to 11k then, making it too strong again, but anyways....
I apologize for my snide posts before, but this is another one of those "nerf nerf nerf" threads that pop up way before any kind of dependable feedback is available. Just because it destroys the personal playing field of these 1vXers, it does not mean that it is an OP set.
I don't share your opinion regarding Shieldbreaker but you came up with reasonable arguments and i understand your position. Apart from this I thought I made it clear that I don't support shield stacking. Shield stacking is the real problem, this set is just a lazy and inadequate attempt to fix this. Even if the set remains in it's current state, shield stacking players will still be a problem for every player who is not using the set. Besides the mechanic of shield stacking itself is dumb and isnt't changed with this.
Having a second shield on top does not make the first more or less broken. I like the new situation.
@Dracane, try it, I have much success with it against gankblades.
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Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
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I have never considered the ability to stack shields as an issue, to be honest. As long as you can refresh one shiepd in time to make opponents unable to break it, this one shield is sufficient. Hardened ward in 1.6 was that powerful. With the reduction now, I have a 9k hardened ward. Makes gameplay a lot more exiting. It will get worse once I have updated my stuff (still on V14 stuff currently), since I guess it will rise to 11k then, making it too strong again, but anyways....
I apologize for my snide posts before, but this is another one of those "nerf nerf nerf" threads that pop up way before any kind of dependable feedback is available. Just because it destroys the personal playing field of these 1vXers, it does not mean that it is an OP set.
I don't share your opinion regarding Shieldbreaker but you came up with reasonable arguments and i understand your position. Apart from this I thought I made it clear that I don't support shield stacking. Shield stacking is the real problem, this set is just a lazy and inadequate attempt to fix this. Even if the set remains in it's current state, shield stacking players will still be a problem for every player who is not using the set. Besides the mechanic of shield stacking itself is dumb and isnt't changed with this.
Having a second shield on top does not make the first more or less broken. I like the new situation.
@Dracane, try it, I have much success with it against gankblades.
It is a usefull gank protection.
But not a protection against shield breaker.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos1 -
Leandor✭✭✭✭✭
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So far, I have encountered Shieldbreaker only from bow gankblades... Maybe I don't play enough.
I have never considered the ability to stack shields as an issue, to be honest. As long as you can refresh one shiepd in time to make opponents unable to break it, this one shield is sufficient. Hardened ward in 1.6 was that powerful. With the reduction now, I have a 9k hardened ward. Makes gameplay a lot more exiting. It will get worse once I have updated my stuff (still on V14 stuff currently), since I guess it will rise to 11k then, making it too strong again, but anyways....
I apologize for my snide posts before, but this is another one of those "nerf nerf nerf" threads that pop up way before any kind of dependable feedback is available. Just because it destroys the personal playing field of these 1vXers, it does not mean that it is an OP set.
I don't share your opinion regarding Shieldbreaker but you came up with reasonable arguments and i understand your position. Apart from this I thought I made it clear that I don't support shield stacking. Shield stacking is the real problem, this set is just a lazy and inadequate attempt to fix this. Even if the set remains in it's current state, shield stacking players will still be a problem for every player who is not using the set. Besides the mechanic of shield stacking itself is dumb and isnt't changed with this.
Having a second shield on top does not make the first more or less broken. I like the new situation.
@Dracane, try it, I have much success with it against gankblades.
It is a usefull gank protection.
But not a protection against shield breaker.0 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Shieldbreaker or not, shieldstacking should have been out of the game a long time ago, yea not all shields are big enough to be a problem for this, but hardward, healward and the light armor shields are all very strong shields to be stacked together.
All smaller shields should maybe get some kinda buff, make it so shieldstacking doesnt work anymore, and do something else with shieldbreaker set, maybe a dmg incr % while youre hitting a dmg shield.
PC EU
PvP only0 -
acw37162✭✭✭✭✭
✭There is no argument for tonign down or removing shield breaker.
Sorc's can't sit in shield with with effective 40 K Plus health, insane mobility, space control, and ridiclious burst. you can actually feel presure now.
I just watched a video posted on the fourms yesterday of a single sorc going 1 v 5 or 6 plus a sewer boss, Im not feeling sorry for Sorc's at all that the only counter to shield stacking is a set of gear you can only get in IC. Yeah not sorry at all.3 -
bigereard✭✭And now we will have this set to counter shield breaker....
http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Permafrost+Set
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baddabumb16_ESO✭✭✭shildbreaker is only good versus user of shilds. permafrost is good versus all type of damage when a shild goes down for a moment. in my opinien a very good set for pvp.0
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olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Julianos + Permafrost set will be a grand setup. With master weps.
PC EU
PvP only0 -
DannyLV702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think shield breaker should require fully charged heavy attacks. Not just some spamming, light attack bow user from the distance. That is ridiculous and a free kill.0