With the huge damage reduction in pvp, is Imperial's "tough" passive too strong?

MrGrimey

It used to be that the extra 12% health passive (while still one of the best, if not the best passives), wasn't a big factor in fights. But now with The new patch and us hitting for much less, that 12% extra health goes a very long way

I don't see how this is anything but pay to win when you have races like Argonian with all their bad passives, Breton only gets 3% cost reduction and spell resist after their main stat passive, and even nord gets a smaller health increase than Imperial.

Redguard is a perfect example to where the imbalance is, they both get a 10% max stamina boost, but the difference is in the 2nd passive, Imperial gets 12% more health and redguard only gets 9% more stamina regen. I understand redguard will have slightly more sustain with the +9% regen, but you can't tell me that +9% Stam regen and +12% extra health are equally good passive.

I wish they can just balance these passives, or did they intentionally make Imperial too good?

Levo18

If they touch imperials i want my Money back.

t.claudio.usnub18_ESO

Levo18 wrote: »

If they touch imperials i want my Money back.

I don't think they would touch the Imperial passives because people had to pay extra money, many people payed extra just for the passives, ESO will open themselves up to a class action law suit if they touch Imperials, so they are left with one option and that is to change all other class passives to fall in line with the Imperials.

MrGrimey

t.claudio.usnub18_ESO wrote: »

Levo18 wrote: »

If they touch imperials i want my Money back.

I don't think they would touch the Imperial passives because people had to pay extra money, many people payed extra just for the passives, ESO will open themselves up to a class action law suit if they touch Imperials, so they are left with one option and that is to change all other class passives to fall in line with the Imperials.

I don't think that's the case, games nerf and alter DLC content, characters and powers all the time. Some games do intentionally leave those items overpowered in order to entice people to purchase them though.

Zsymon

Yeah no deal, I paid for the Imperial passives and I will not be happy if they touch them.

FluffyMeowington

Are you guys serious, preemptive tears over your p2win passives possibly being brought in line? Sad.

Lightninvash

well it is a valid point to not want the passives touched on the imperial being a race that can only be bought. that's like saying ambrosias aren't as good as xp scrolls that you buy from the store because the scrolls last 2 hrs instead of 30mins and expect a change for that. they would lose money on people buying imperial if they did that same for xp scrolls. I don't think they will touch the crown store items due to this factor of losing money or potential money.

Waffennacht

Well I personally would be disappointed if they changed imperial. I do not own it but the idea of them nerfing something paid for doesn't sit well with me.

Sure its a bit better in some comparison but that's why it costs money.

They don't want to set a pattern of changing paid for items, would definitely hamper sales (and we all want and need a solid player base)

I look at it like im trying to keep my investment of 60 bucks in the game, if the game dies my spent money is all wasted

MrGrimey

Lightninvash wrote: »

well it is a valid point to not want the passives touched on the imperial being a race that can only be bought. that's like saying ambrosias aren't as good as xp scrolls that you buy from the store because the scrolls last 2 hrs instead of 30mins and expect a change for that. they would lose money on people buying imperial if they did that same for xp scrolls. I don't think they will touch the crown store items due to this factor of losing money or potential money.

Apples and oranges, one gives you an advantage on the battlefield, the other saves you in game time and in game money at the cost of real life money

spliffmaster2b16_ESO

What is wrong with you? Everyone has paid for this game and expects Zenimax to keep it balanced.

And a lawsuit? LOL

leepalmer95

MrGrimey wrote: »

Lightninvash wrote: »

well it is a valid point to not want the passives touched on the imperial being a race that can only be bought. that's like saying ambrosias aren't as good as xp scrolls that you buy from the store because the scrolls last 2 hrs instead of 30mins and expect a change for that. they would lose money on people buying imperial if they did that same for xp scrolls. I don't think they will touch the crown store items due to this factor of losing money or potential money.

Apples and oranges, one gives you an advantage on the battlefield, the other saves you in game time and in game money at the cost of real life money

Not exactly a 'game changing' advantage, only use if your stamina and even then sometimes redguard is better, no magicka build will be imperial...

DaveMoeDee

spliffmaster2b16_ESO wrote: »

What is wrong with you? Everyone has paid for this game and expects Zenimax to keep it balanced.

And a lawsuit? LOL

Lawsuit is really over the top. Drama...

corrosivechains

eh, leave the imperials alone. What we need is to buff every other race to be at, or better than imperials...I mean you all bought your imperials for the aesthetics and faction unlock, and not the pay2win aspects, right? Right?

An Example of what the racials for other races should be:

Orc
10% Health and Stamina increase.
20% Health and 10% Stamina regen(what Khajiit now have)
Reduce Sprint costs by 12%, Increase spring speed by 10%, Increase melee damage by 2%/4%/6% at 75%/50%/25% health

Example 2:
Argonian
Increase swim speed by 50%, increase ALL potion effects by 6%(not just health, magicka, stamina)
Increase Health and Magicka by 8% and increase healing received by 6%
Reduce detection radius when in stealth by 3m and increase Poison and Disease resistances by [x]

Those 2 examples showcase how to bring 2 of the weakest races to about equal footing, keeping inline with their lore, and not outshining the Imperial racials.

MrGrimey

leepalmer95 wrote: »

MrGrimey wrote: »

Lightninvash wrote: »

well it is a valid point to not want the passives touched on the imperial being a race that can only be bought. that's like saying ambrosias aren't as good as xp scrolls that you buy from the store because the scrolls last 2 hrs instead of 30mins and expect a change for that. they would lose money on people buying imperial if they did that same for xp scrolls. I don't think they will touch the crown store items due to this factor of losing money or potential money.

Apples and oranges, one gives you an advantage on the battlefield, the other saves you in game time and in game money at the cost of real life money

Not exactly a 'game changing' advantage, only use if your stamina and even then sometimes redguard is better, no magicka build will be imperial...

Many magicka classes use imperial, especially for pvp, the tough passive works for everything.

leepalmer95

MrGrimey wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

MrGrimey wrote: »

Lightninvash wrote: »

well it is a valid point to not want the passives touched on the imperial being a race that can only be bought. that's like saying ambrosias aren't as good as xp scrolls that you buy from the store because the scrolls last 2 hrs instead of 30mins and expect a change for that. they would lose money on people buying imperial if they did that same for xp scrolls. I don't think they will touch the crown store items due to this factor of losing money or potential money.

Apples and oranges, one gives you an advantage on the battlefield, the other saves you in game time and in game money at the cost of real life money

Not exactly a 'game changing' advantage, only use if your stamina and even then sometimes redguard is better, no magicka build will be imperial...

Many magicka classes use imperial, especially for pvp, the tough passive works for everything.

Because ppl give up 10% max magicka/9% regen/4% f/I/L dmg.... of course...

corrosivechains

leepalmer95 wrote: »

MrGrimey wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

MrGrimey wrote: »

Lightninvash wrote: »

well it is a valid point to not want the passives touched on the imperial being a race that can only be bought. that's like saying ambrosias aren't as good as xp scrolls that you buy from the store because the scrolls last 2 hrs instead of 30mins and expect a change for that. they would lose money on people buying imperial if they did that same for xp scrolls. I don't think they will touch the crown store items due to this factor of losing money or potential money.

Apples and oranges, one gives you an advantage on the battlefield, the other saves you in game time and in game money at the cost of real life money

Not exactly a 'game changing' advantage, only use if your stamina and even then sometimes redguard is better, no magicka build will be imperial...

Many magicka classes use imperial, especially for pvp, the tough passive works for everything.

Because ppl give up 10% max magicka/9% regen/4% f/I/L dmg.... of course...

He's right, if you look at guides for magicka based classes, Imperials are still a top recommendation because the stam and health leaves more wiggle room for gear sets, enchants, food buffs, etc.

MrGrimey

corrosivechains wrote: »

eh, leave the imperials alone. What we need is to buff every other race to be at, or better than imperials...I mean you all bought your imperials for the aesthetics and faction unlock, and not the pay2win aspects, right? Right?

An Example of what the racials for other races should be:

Orc
10% Health and Stamina increase.
20% Health and 10% Stamina regen(what Khajiit now have)
Reduce Sprint costs by 12%, Increase spring speed by 10%, Increase melee damage by 2%/4%/6% at 75%/50%/25% health

Example 2:
Argonian
Increase swim speed by 50%, increase ALL potion effects by 6%(not just health, magicka, stamina)
Increase Health and Magicka by 8% and increase healing received by 6%
Reduce detection radius when in stealth by 3m and increase Poison and Disease resistances by [x]

Those 2 examples showcase how to bring 2 of the weakest races to about equal footing, keeping inline with their lore, and not outshining the Imperial racials.

One of the problems with that could be that if we brought all races to the level of Imperial, then racials would be even more of a deciding factor into what class you play. I think most of the community's wants racials to have a smaller role and offer more flexibility in what classes we play.

corrosivechains

MrGrimey wrote: »

One of the problems with that could be that if we brought all races to the level of Imperial, then racials would be even more of a deciding factor into what class you play. I think most of the community's wants racials to have a smaller role and offer more flexibility in what classes we play.

I'd agree with this except as we can see, since imperial passives are locked behind a paywall, they're more or less set in stone. As such, my suggested examples just worked around that. I do agree though that racials should be more complimentary to playstyles and less mandatory for them.

xaraan

No, they need to fix the damage reduction, not screw with racial passives b/c of it. Half the problem is they listened to a lot of feedback from pvp and then rolled out changes on top of the damage reduction, making half the feedback not work for what they turned pvp into. They need to work on pvp combat first, then worry about tweaking classes and races.

DaveMoeDee

Just buy the Imperial class if you want it so much. It is a one time cost and you use it forever.

People like to say pay to win as if any cost for an advantage is problematic. It isn't. We aren't being bombarded with micro-transactions to compete. But if you want the benefits of the Imperial class for all the years you are playing the game, you will have to spend money once. There is nothing problematic about that.

If there is a problem, it is that having a class with better numbers can lead to everyone being that class, which is lame. Slightly countering this is the fact that some classes have buffs that are hard to get otherwise, while the Imperial buffs are all easily copied through enchantments.

13igTyme

t.claudio.usnub18_ESO wrote: »

Levo18 wrote: »

If they touch imperials i want my Money back.

I don't think they would touch the Imperial passives because people had to pay extra money, many people payed extra just for the passives, ESO will open themselves up to a class action law suit if they touch Imperials, so they are left with one option and that is to change all other class passives to fall in line with the Imperials.

A class action lawsuit that would go no where and die faster than they can even get the paper work done.

MrGrimey

Seems like the main argument is "I paid for these passives, they should not be balanced"... Funny how everyone complains about balance, but when it's a race, it's ok to have an imbalance because it's for $

ADarklore

There isn't an 'imbalance' between Imperial and other races... Imperial offers certain passives that work for some things, but no so much for others. I don't know a lot of people who'd pick Imperial as a Sorcerer if they were only going to PvE because chances are they are playing ranged with a staff and would receive absolutely no benefit from the Red Diamond or the Max Stamina passives.

People here acting like the Imperial class is a 'guaranteed win' in combat, when it is not, far from it actually. As others noted, there are other races that are better for certain classes... Imperial is great for a more diverse build. It is probably the 'jack of all trades, master of none' class in ESO.

MrGrimey

ADarklore wrote: »

There isn't an 'imbalance' between Imperial and other races... Imperial offers certain passives that work for some things, but no so much for others. I don't know a lot of people who'd pick Imperial as a Sorcerer if they were only going to PvE because chances are they are playing ranged with a staff and would receive absolutely no benefit from the Red Diamond or the Max Stamina passives.

People here acting like the Imperial class is a 'guaranteed win' in combat, when it is not, far from it actually. As others noted, there are other races that are better for certain classes... Imperial is great for a more diverse build. It is probably the 'jack of all trades, master of none' class in ESO.

I do get what you're saying, but even when you look pure at stat percentages, it doesn't add up and shows that imperial is not balanced.

Compare imperial to redguard: both get a max +10% Stam bonus, but the redguard only gets a +9% Stam regen while the imperial gets a +12% increase to total health. Total health being a more valuable stat in the majority of applications. It's really the +12% extra health that is too much in terms of racial balance.

Imperial has the biggest main stat increase of any race by far(not counting regen as a main stat), but is that ok just because it costs money? How would you guys feel is ZOS released a new class for 3k crowns that easily did more damage than the "free" classes.

ADarklore

Extra Health isn't DAMAGING anyone... and some people would argue that extra Stamina regen (in a game that just saw increase roll-dodge costs) would be better. Do Imperials get extra survivability, sure, but again they have to use that extra survivability to do damage to whatever is attacking them. Funny how many players who bought the Imperial edition aren't playing Imperials... seems to me if Imperials were so OP, everyone would be playing them or buying the IE to get them, but they're not.

However, I do agree with most people that selling a specific race that is advertised with certain traits which encouraged people to buy it, and then turning around and downgrading that race would be a VERY BAD IDEA and would ruin players' trust in ZOS and anything else they offered/sold in the future.

flintstone

Levo18 wrote: »

If they touch imperials i want my Money back.

Yep, they better not touch Imperial....... even a little

zornyan

The third imperial passive is completly junk anyway, so really we only get 2 passives worthwhile. The passives fit the type of race they are, human soldiers, practised combatants. Military troops etc. Fits the lore well.

It's definitely not pay2win, their not Op, they work well in certain situations. Like my hybrid tank/stamina templar, I put 50/50 into health and stam, so both passives give me great pools.

But I don't have the great regen or stealth and crit damage of my khajit, I won't have the flat 6% damage buff of an orc, or the 6% defence buff of a nord, redguards are probably the best pure stam race possible etc.

Imperials are simply well balanced and versatile, they can work extremely well for some builds (like all the races bar aragonians) but generally most will pick other races for s endgame build in mind.

Personally I'm using one for my templar, and I'll make another for a future dk, or Nb,

MissBizz

corrosivechains wrote: »

eh, leave the imperials alone. What we need is to buff every other race to be at, or better than imperials...I mean you all bought your imperials for the aesthetics and faction unlock, and not the pay2win aspects, right? Right?
<snip>

Actually... I just wanted a horse... Never made an imperial until my third character.. Because I figured I should since I bought the imperial edition. Lol

corrosivechains

So the consensus is Imperials aren't overpowered, every other race is just underpowered, but no one wants the other races buffed because they paid to have imperials?

Also the Orc bonus is 4% to melee damage, not 6% flat damage.

Edit: Also because they don't make the best MAGICKA sorcerers, so they're not the best overall race to pick.

MrGrimey

Well, imperials also make great magicka classes, the attribute points they save from speccing into health can go straight into magicka. They get such large bonuses to 2 out of 3 of their main stats and that's what makes them able to spec for any role

Many classes that have a +10% main stat bonus with either magicka or stamina only get a +9% bonus to a regen stat (redguard, altmer). Or Breton gets a negligible 3% cost reduction in addition to its +10% to magicka. In what world is a 3% cost reduction anywhere close to a 12% boost in health? No other class gets so much of a bonus to its main stat as imperial

Some of you people in denial can say that it's balanced, but the numbers don't lie. Sure, they can buff all races to give as much of a boost as imperials do, but that would further make playstyles depend on race, I actually feel that's something we need to move away from

Alucardo

I play Breton on all my classes, but I bought the Imperial because I hate having 90% of a game. Well played, ZOS.. well played.