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Has THIS anti-zerg option been discussed yet?
Saddiq
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I've only read about half or so of the IC zerg/anti-zerg forum topics, so if this idea has already been proposed, feel free to link to it and kill this thread.
Assuming we're all on the same page that zergs in IC are ***, laughable, and make a mockery of human decency (we all do agree on that, right?, right?), what about something along the lines of this for an anti-zerg mechanic built-in by ZOS:
1a) Note: This would be exclusive to IC, not Cyrodiil at large. Cyrodiil keeps' gates require tight concentrations for key parts of the battle, so this mechanic shouldn't apply outside IC.
1) An [invisible to us] group of concentric circles is weighted around the nucleus of the zerg. i.e. wherever the density of same-alliance players in a 10 m or less radius is centred, becomes the centre of the circle. The density must meet some minimal condition, say 6 players concentrated in a 10 m or smaller radius. ZOS mechanics then places ever widening circles outward from that (again, which we the players won't see). So there's a 15 m radius circle, a 20 m radius circle, 25 m, and so on.
2) Let's put an arbitrary percentage for illustration on each circle. Wherever the amount of players exceeds 'x' within the 10 m nucleus, every same-alliance player in that nucleus gets their defences and offences nerfed considerably, and I do mean considerably. Then the next circle out, 15 m radius around the dense nucleus, the players on the margins of the 15 m radius also get nerfed, but to a lesser degree. Players between 15 and 20 m from the nucleus of the zerg get nerfed a little less, and so on and so forth. In other words, the closer you are to the densest part of the zerg, the less effective your attacks and the weaker your defences. As you move further away from this dense centre, you grow stronger in both attack and defense until at some circle, say 30 m (or whatever), you are free from any anti-zerg nerfing and are at full 'battle spirit' power. Optionally, you could also nerf TV stone rewards based on your proximity to the density of the zerg.
Just to throw out some arbitrary numbers, I would propose something as extreme as the nucleus and everyone within 10 m of that nucleus gets nerfed by 75% (drastic, but the point of this is to kill off zergs), from 10-15 m would be 50%, 15-20 would be nerfed 25%, etc. Also, the zerg would need to be defined by ZOS's calculations, so that a simple group of 4 never received any nerf. i.e. "A zerg is a group of x or more players within a 30 m radius". Anytime the same-alliance players dispersed and dropped below 'x', the nerf would immediately be removed.
Advantages:
1) It's subtle, so while 'smart' players would figure out pretty quick that zerging up makes them so weak and gives them so little reward that it's counter-productive to their goals of farming tv stones (or whatever), and stop zeroing, the 'less smart' players might take a couple weeks or months and a couple 'experiences' to realize that when they form smaller groups or move to the outskirts of where their co-alliance members are, they get way better performance and rewards. It's not in your face and doesn't require ZOS to re-teach us or re-sell us on a new idea, or muck around with specific skills. Guild leaders and community leaders will figure it out and teach the community naturally (all Adam Smith-like).
2) Whether or not it kills off every natural or artificial formation of a zerg, regardless of that outcome, zergs are nerfed without ever touching individual skills or trying to balance the classes, since the attack/defense nerfs are universal and not 'Magicka' or 'Stamina' specific (or whatever). As such, groups of 4 (aka 'not zergs') and smaller can actually take on these comical 20+ group zergs and wipe them out in God-mode. Community corrects itself. Zerg disperses so as not to be wiped out in God-mode, and individual 'ex-zerg' players feel more buffed and level with the group of 4 as they disperse.
3) The minimum 'x' amount (it's 6 players in my head, but whatever you like) is higher than 4, so no nerfing of 'real groups of 4' ever occurs, and when solo 'yokels' like myself think they're lending a hand by photo-bombing a group of 4, there's a little give so that the group of 4 don't get nerfed if one or two extra players join the fight.
Disadvantages:
1) Accidental overlap of independent groups of 4 plus stragglers can nerf themselves despite having the best of intentions. Group leaders, though, can probably self-correct this without too much need to be geniuses.
2) ? (your thoughts on why this idea is flawed)
Edited by Saddiq on September 2, 2015 2:53AM Assuming we're all on the same page that zergs in IC are ***, laughable, and make a mockery of human decency (we all do agree on that, right?, right?), what about something along the lines of this for an anti-zerg mechanic built-in by ZOS:
1a) Note: This would be exclusive to IC, not Cyrodiil at large. Cyrodiil keeps' gates require tight concentrations for key parts of the battle, so this mechanic shouldn't apply outside IC.
1) An [invisible to us] group of concentric circles is weighted around the nucleus of the zerg. i.e. wherever the density of same-alliance players in a 10 m or less radius is centred, becomes the centre of the circle. The density must meet some minimal condition, say 6 players concentrated in a 10 m or smaller radius. ZOS mechanics then places ever widening circles outward from that (again, which we the players won't see). So there's a 15 m radius circle, a 20 m radius circle, 25 m, and so on.
2) Let's put an arbitrary percentage for illustration on each circle. Wherever the amount of players exceeds 'x' within the 10 m nucleus, every same-alliance player in that nucleus gets their defences and offences nerfed considerably, and I do mean considerably. Then the next circle out, 15 m radius around the dense nucleus, the players on the margins of the 15 m radius also get nerfed, but to a lesser degree. Players between 15 and 20 m from the nucleus of the zerg get nerfed a little less, and so on and so forth. In other words, the closer you are to the densest part of the zerg, the less effective your attacks and the weaker your defences. As you move further away from this dense centre, you grow stronger in both attack and defense until at some circle, say 30 m (or whatever), you are free from any anti-zerg nerfing and are at full 'battle spirit' power. Optionally, you could also nerf TV stone rewards based on your proximity to the density of the zerg.
Just to throw out some arbitrary numbers, I would propose something as extreme as the nucleus and everyone within 10 m of that nucleus gets nerfed by 75% (drastic, but the point of this is to kill off zergs), from 10-15 m would be 50%, 15-20 would be nerfed 25%, etc. Also, the zerg would need to be defined by ZOS's calculations, so that a simple group of 4 never received any nerf. i.e. "A zerg is a group of x or more players within a 30 m radius". Anytime the same-alliance players dispersed and dropped below 'x', the nerf would immediately be removed.
Advantages:
1) It's subtle, so while 'smart' players would figure out pretty quick that zerging up makes them so weak and gives them so little reward that it's counter-productive to their goals of farming tv stones (or whatever), and stop zeroing, the 'less smart' players might take a couple weeks or months and a couple 'experiences' to realize that when they form smaller groups or move to the outskirts of where their co-alliance members are, they get way better performance and rewards. It's not in your face and doesn't require ZOS to re-teach us or re-sell us on a new idea, or muck around with specific skills. Guild leaders and community leaders will figure it out and teach the community naturally (all Adam Smith-like).
2) Whether or not it kills off every natural or artificial formation of a zerg, regardless of that outcome, zergs are nerfed without ever touching individual skills or trying to balance the classes, since the attack/defense nerfs are universal and not 'Magicka' or 'Stamina' specific (or whatever). As such, groups of 4 (aka 'not zergs') and smaller can actually take on these comical 20+ group zergs and wipe them out in God-mode. Community corrects itself. Zerg disperses so as not to be wiped out in God-mode, and individual 'ex-zerg' players feel more buffed and level with the group of 4 as they disperse.
3) The minimum 'x' amount (it's 6 players in my head, but whatever you like) is higher than 4, so no nerfing of 'real groups of 4' ever occurs, and when solo 'yokels' like myself think they're lending a hand by photo-bombing a group of 4, there's a little give so that the group of 4 don't get nerfed if one or two extra players join the fight.
Disadvantages:
1) Accidental overlap of independent groups of 4 plus stragglers can nerf themselves despite having the best of intentions. Group leaders, though, can probably self-correct this without too much need to be geniuses.
2) ? (your thoughts on why this idea is flawed)
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AbraXuSeXile✭✭✭✭✭
✭Killing zergs with minimal numbers was easily doable before, but this patch i just dont see how...AbraXuS
Grand Overlord Rank 50 [First EU]
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Crashing an EP Wedding | DK Emp | 1vX | Between Enemy Lines | Hate Video | 5 v Many -
Just make all AoE damage apply a reduced amount of friendly fire to those around caster. Problem fixes itself. -
MrGrimey✭✭✭✭✭I think a decent idea May to reduce player health by "x" amount for every person past 4 in their proximity.
With how low the damage is, it's almost impossible to fight a group when outnumbered the lower damage definitely encourages zerging. Can't see how they didn't think about this -
Saddiq✭✭✭lifefrombelowb14_ESO wrote: »Just make all AoE damage apply a reduced amount of friendly fire to those around caster. Problem fixes itself.
That does sound simple and effective. ZOS isn't afraid of making huge changes that upset people--as we've learned multiple times--so that would definitely help. Know I've seen that idea tossed around before but something about zergs in cramped quarters makes me view it differently. -
Saddiq✭✭✭I think a decent idea May to reduce player health by "x" amount for every person past 4 in their proximity.
With how low the damage is, it's almost impossible to fight a group when outnumbered the lower damage definitely encourages zerging. Can't see how they didn't think about this
But zergs need to hit for less too. It needs to hurt to be in a zerg if we're ever going to make these go away in IC. -
MrGrimey✭✭✭✭✭I think a decent idea May to reduce player health by "x" amount for every person past 4 in their proximity.
With how low the damage is, it's almost impossible to fight a group when outnumbered the lower damage definitely encourages zerging. Can't see how they didn't think about this
But zergs need to hit for less too. It needs to hurt to be in a zerg if we're ever going to make these go away in IC.
A health reduction and damage reduction debuff would make sense if they went with this method... I think a diminishing returns on tv stones based on how many people you are attacked by would be the easiest to implement -
willymchilybily✭✭✭✭This is a nice idea, but also a new mechanic as far as i know. Like completely new? no where it exists outside in another form of code where it can be extracted.
I tend to notice once a game is launched the dev team drops away those few devs that bring new things will work on DLC or go to other projects, what remains behind just re-jiggle numbers and re-assign status to existing mechanics. So although a good idea i don't think it will be quickly implemented due to resource management issues, even if the idea is taken up.
That said. Nice idea. Hope I'm wrong.PSN - WarpPigeon - Guild: TheSyndicate - EU, Ebonheart PactDragon Knight [Magicka] - 720 - StormproofNight Blade [Magicka] - 720 - StormproofSorcerer [Magicka] - 720 - Flawless ConquerorTemplar [Magicka] - 720 - StormproofDragon Knight [Stamina] - 720 - StormproofNight Blade [Stamina] - 720 - StormproofSorcerer [Stamina] - 720 -
I'm a software engineer.
What you're asking on computation of real time metrics on a fast past (FPS-esk) game is probably inconceivable, because it would have to do a check against all possible nodes on every player to determine your matrix.
you'd need some heavy duty servers just for this calculation, and then relay all the info to each person in said server that the zone supports.
not going to happen code wise.
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Saddiq✭✭✭Ah, well that settles that then. Thanks for answering.
I do find that a little weird, since the game has to calculate these distances to permit or not permit ranged attacks. So I would have thought all these numbers are already crunched anyway. But, I guess not.
Thanks for the reply.
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Rescorla_ESO✭✭✭lifefrombelowb14_ESO wrote: »Just make all AoE damage apply a reduced amount of friendly fire to those around caster. Problem fixes itself.
That would do the trick for certain. Unfortunately it would open up the door for cross faction griefing. In other words, someone whose main was in DC or EP could roll an alt in AD, level them up to 10 quickly, and then come in and start intentionally AOE and help his main's faction defeat AD. -
chevalierknight✭✭✭lifefrombelowb14_ESO wrote: »Just make all AoE damage apply a reduced amount of friendly fire to those around caster. Problem fixes itself.
That does sound simple and effective. ZOS isn't afraid of making huge changes that upset people--as we've learned multiple times--so that would definitely help. Know I've seen that idea tossed around before but something about zergs in cramped quarters makes me view it differently.
Adding ff will bring trolls out just make ap and stones less the more people there are -
Defilted✭✭✭✭✭
✭Why can't ZOS just make AOE spells do more damage at ground zero and less damage as it goes out. This way tight groups of large people get a negative for playing this way like any normal group would outside of this game. I am not sure why this has to be so complicate.
0 to 10M X
11m to 20 X-y
so on and so on
This forces groups to spread out and think twice about standing on top each other. This also allows for smaller gorilla groups to have a change to hit and run a larger groups. This also requires groups to think about door stacking and makes them move around. Again in any normal situation you cannot group up and expect that if a explosion goes off you are going to be ok. You need to be smart about how you attack something or some other group.XBOX NA
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chevalierknight✭✭✭Why can't ZOS just make AOE spells do more damage at ground zero and less damage as it goes out. This way tight groups of large people get a negative for playing this way like any normal group would outside of this game. I am not sure why this has to be so complicate.
0 to 10M X
11m to 20 X-y
so on and so on
This forces groups to spread out and think twice about standing on top each other. This also allows for smaller gorilla groups to have a change to hit and run a larger groups. This also requires groups to think about door stacking and makes them move around. Again in any normal situation you cannot group up and expect that if a explosion goes off you are going to be ok. You need to be smart about how you attack something or some other group.
Because it wouldnt be an aoe lol
