What was the logic behind nerfing NB Stam Regeneration?

Master_Kas

Because of qq

MCMancub

Zsymon wrote: »

Isn't 20% reduced cost a larger difference than 30% stamina recovery?

That entirely depends on how much stamina regen you had. Costs are flat, regen isn't. So if you had a lot of regen, you lost way more than the reduction to cost will help you. But, if you didn't have a lot (like me), then it might come out on top after CP's. I can't verify right now, but I will be testing later today.

Philelectric

I dont like those changes (WW stam regen and NB passive change) because I'm a stam NB but I think it isnt that bad.

If you look at the stam ability cost VS the possible stam rege, the difference might not be that much.

Also, people think siphon strike change is a nerf. It might be true but according to the fact that you do not loose any damage for using it in 2.1, it might be the solution to the extra stam regen you need. On top of that you can use relentless focus for an extra 10% regen. You wont miss the magika it takes since you get 15% more regen.


PvP Wise, 15% mag regen makes it for the lost of 15% stam regen in some way. It will allow to use more cloak and more fear. It might slow down the fights but i dont think its bad.

And if the change to WW affect you that much, you can go vampire. You'll get 10% extra stam and mag regen if you slot 1 vamp skill with only 25% fire weakness.

In the end you can get 25% extra stam regen, 25% extra mag regen and you wont notice the health regen you loose as a vamp because of the new 15% health regen.



My WW bosmer might become a Vamp bosmer.

(no, I do not feel bad for being a stam NB bosmer with all this stam regen because I'm a bosmer since day 1 )

mousekime111rwb17_ESO

Maybe rapid strikes will be on par with surprise attack now . . .

EDIT: By changing grim focus the way they did they essentially removed 30% of the COSTS from a stam nightblade's rotation - this FARRRRRRRR outweighs any regen changes.

Tavore1138

As I'm not a redguard and focus on damage I have about 900 regen now, with pots and HA weaving I can sustain - stealing another 30% coupled with things like roll dodge cost increases, nerfs to damage sets and damage reductions to skills it seems like they are having another pop at those of us who found ways around the last lot of stamina nerfs, sad sad sad.

kaithuzar

I don't think just stam regen, I could swear they changed the "IN COMBAT REGEN".
There are 2 regen stats for each regen stat...ie..... health regen & in combat health regen, same for magic & stam
magic regen & in combat magic regen; stam regen & in combat stam regen
These have been NOTICEABLY / Drastically reduced , also due to there being a duration of time before you can get "Out of combat" which is what needs to happen for you to obtain the normal regen rate; it's just impossible to get good regen even if your normal regen stats are at 2k!
Out of combat my regen is fine, but there is LITTLE TO NO POINT if they NERF In Combat Regen; because that's the only thing we REALLY care about.

Derra

Actually the new passive is a buff. I´d like that passive too on my sorc. 10% magica regen in stormcalling is a little underwhelming when compared to what NB gets.
Do sth about that ZOS!

Joy_Division

MCMancub wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

MCMancub wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Ah, now it's 15% for all stats ? That's extremely strong. i want 15% Magicka regen on my Sorcerer. Why does a thief have more Magicka regen than a mage ? Pls Nerf

MCMancub wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Stamina Nightblade's Regeneration was way too high.
How much did they nerf it actually ?

Speak for yourself. Until you hit 300-400 CP, you still run out plenty in PvE. I had about 1200 stamina regen and 31k stamina on live.

On PTS I lost 15% to WW passive and 15% to the Refreshing Shadows passive nerf.

That means I lost 400 stamina regeneration on PTS.

Uhm, well. I know Nightblades with almost 4000 stamina regen. How are you supposed to run out of ressources with this ?
You still have more than enough regen. But now you might want to sacrifise a bit more to have even more. I don't think this nerf will kill you. And you also have 15% more Magicka regen now... so I wouldn't even call it a nerf.

Everyone needs Magikca regen and 15% is sooo much. Give it to my Sorcerer pls

So the solution to the massive nerf is to shift all of my stamina (and a portion of my damage as a result) to regeneration because they overnerfed?

For your friends that have 4000 stamina regen, how do they feel about losing 1200 regen?

It works better than crying about it like a little kid. You weren't supposed to have the 15% from werewolf in the first place, so don't even count it. You can't even argue that you should have 15% regen for doing nothing. The nerf to NB passive was necessary because 30% was too much. Your class is strong, stop crying because you at least have to try and worry about regen now.

Please learn to read. Nothing irritates me more than having to repeat myself so many times on these forums. WW PASSIVE NEEDED THE NERF! I've said it, like, 3 or 4 times now.

Geez, give it a rest. I don't think it didn't.

Why didn't ZOS wait to see how these changes affect stamina NB before nerfing it more?

We know how to read. We don't agree with your assessment that this is a "nerf."

You laid out the premise that being a WW was somehow intrinsic to being a stamina NB, which even if many people used that combination, is dubious at best and misleading at worst as WW is separate and independent of NB. All players and all classes, not just your stam NB, has to deal with this.

As for as the 30% stam regen being replace by a straight 15% regen to all attributes, it is difficult to even categorize that as a "nerf" as other posters pointed out because that opens up the door for more builds and the 15% stam regen from a passive is nothing to sneeze at in the first place.

Ezareth

MCMancub wrote: »

Combined with the nerf to the WW passive (a nerf I believe was very much needed), Stam NB lost almost a third (literally 30%) of the stamina regeneration they had before. Why? I realize ZOS was wanting to make the passive more rounded for all types of builds, but it really hurt stamina regeneration for the entire NB stamina dps play-style. It wasn't dangerously high or a seriously overpowered mechanic. Now it feels like I'm being forced to use a drink simply because my regeneration is under-par, even for PvE.

EDIT: And this is coming from a Redguard.

This is why. That is just self-buffed with only two Stamina-regen set bonuses and no stamina regen enchants on a non-emp. I could get it well over 5K if I wanted.

MCMancub

Ezareth wrote: »

MCMancub wrote: »

Combined with the nerf to the WW passive (a nerf I believe was very much needed), Stam NB lost almost a third (literally 30%) of the stamina regeneration they had before. Why? I realize ZOS was wanting to make the passive more rounded for all types of builds, but it really hurt stamina regeneration for the entire NB stamina dps play-style. It wasn't dangerously high or a seriously overpowered mechanic. Now it feels like I'm being forced to use a drink simply because my regeneration is under-par, even for PvE.

EDIT: And this is coming from a Redguard.

This is why. That is just self-buffed with only two Stamina-regen set bonuses and no stamina regen enchants on a non-emp. I could get it well over 5K if I wanted.

That's totally fine. You're built for stamina regen with a race that already gets bonuses for it. I have no issue with that. You sacrifice damage in the form of potentially 15k more stamina and can hinder yourself with the changes to dodge roll.

Now flip the scenario. Instead of building for regen, build for flat resources and you'll see that *for this build*, the regen nerf hits hard. Like someone said above, they're just forcing us to play a certain way now.

You can't get away without building regen anymore. You're forced to sacrifice resources and damage to have even the minimum amount necessary. That's lame.

EDIT: I have 13k more stamina than you. Converted to damage that's 1238 additional weapon damage. That's HUGE.

olemanwinter

MCMancub wrote: »

That's totally fine. You're built for stamina regen with a race that already gets bonuses for it. I have no issue with that. You sacrifice damage in the form of potentially 15k more stamina and can hinder yourself with the changes to dodge roll.

Now flip the scenario. Instead of building for regen, build for flat resources and you'll see that *for this build*, the regen nerf hits hard. Like someone said above, they're just forcing us to play a certain way now.

You can't get away without building regen anymore. You're forced to sacrifice resources and damage to have even the minimum amount necessary. That's lame.

EDIT: I have 13k more stamina than you. Converted to damage that's 1238 additional weapon damage. That's HUGE.

Caps added for my emphasis.

Exactly right. Had they not nerfed dodge roll and perma-blocking then perhaps a regen nerf was in order. BUT NOT BOTH.

I don't know why Zos insists on nerfing things in several ways at once. Why not nerf a thing in 1 way and wait to see how it works?

Why does everything have to be so extreme?

- Massive Nerf to blocking/stam regen
- Massive Nerf to dodge roll cost
- Massive Nerf to NB stamina regeneration
- Removed stamina gain from Vampire Essence Drain
- Massive Nerf to WW (or at least it's inclusion in builds) requiring the ULT slot for stam regen

I'm sure I missed some. But why not just pick 1 or 2 of those things and see how it goes?

MCMancub

olemanwinter wrote: »

MCMancub wrote: »

That's totally fine. You're built for stamina regen with a race that already gets bonuses for it. I have no issue with that. You sacrifice damage in the form of potentially 15k more stamina and can hinder yourself with the changes to dodge roll.

Now flip the scenario. Instead of building for regen, build for flat resources and you'll see that *for this build*, the regen nerf hits hard. Like someone said above, they're just forcing us to play a certain way now.

You can't get away without building regen anymore. You're forced to sacrifice resources and damage to have even the minimum amount necessary. That's lame.

EDIT: I have 13k more stamina than you. Converted to damage that's 1238 additional weapon damage. That's HUGE.

Caps added for my emphasis.

Exactly right. Had they not nerfed dodge roll and perma-blocking then perhaps a regen nerf was in order. BUT NOT BOTH.

I don't know why Zos insists on nerfing things in several ways at once. Why not nerf a thing in 1 way and wait to see how it works?

Why does everything have to be so extreme?

- Massive Nerf to blocking/stam regen
- Massive Nerf to dodge roll cost
- Massive Nerf to NB stamina regeneration
- Removed stamina gain from Vampire Essence Drain
- Massive Nerf to WW (or at least it's inclusion in builds) requiring the ULT slot for stam regen

I'm sure I missed some. But why not just pick 1 or 2 of those things and see how it goes?

This is pretty much what this entire post was about. If after nerfing only 1 or 2 things they felt it still needed to be nerfed, that's fine. But they didn't even attempt that. They just nerfed all the things. The combined nerfs hurt stamina builds, sure, but they REALLY hurt stamina NB builds.

Jakeol

They significanly reduced the stam cost for most NB class stam abilities. We will be fine with an 800 cost surprise attack

MCMancub

Jakeol wrote: »

They significanly reduced the stam cost for most NB class stam abilities. We will be fine with an 800 cost surprise attack

I think I'm leaning more towards this as well.

Let's break this down:

• It's a 20% cost reduction to NB stamina abilities, which contribute to half or probably even more than half of all stamina abilities used for stamina NBs.
• If we're generous and say 75% of the time we're using our stamina on SA, KB, or other NB abilities that use stamina, then that means we gain about 10-15% stamina back in the form of cost reduction to NB stamina abilities, potentially equivalent to what we lose in regen.
• Since we're gaining 10-15% cost reduction we can shift a lot of points from Warlord to Mooncalf safely, maybe only needing as much as 10 points into Warlord now.

I'll need to do some actual testing, but if it works out like I think it can, this could be an OK change.

EDIT: I will say that this nerf is more harmful to those with less CP than those who can offset the change with Mooncalf.

PBpsy

This was actually a greater hit on Magicka NBs since it nerfed something we already had little of. In conjunction with the stam regen on blocking we might as well forget that blocking, interrupting dodge roiling exists.

Mulk

MCMancub wrote: »

I appreciate all the legitimate responses (those of you who didn't act like children). I guess I will need to see how this change actually affects their current situation, on both PvE and PvP fronts, before coming to a definitive answer.

This is what everyone should do about every change of this nature. Regrettably, the age of Twitter and instant gratification seems to require that a certain group of people immediately whine in a public, profuse and usually profane manner, sometimes even if there is nothing to whine about. Not accusing you specifically, but commenting on a general mode of behavior that is childish and immature at best, offensive and abusive at worst. The best course of action with any change is to see how it plays out live. The changes don't happen in a vacuum and are rarely if ever worth much energy in protest. In all of my years of gaming, with all of the class reviews, buffs and nerfs I have seen, I can count on one hand the number of times the complaints (in both volume and frequency) were justified.

starkerealm

Dracane wrote: »

Ah, now it's 15% for all stats ? That's extremely strong. i want 15% Magicka regen on my Sorcerer. Why does a thief have more Magicka regen than a mage ? Pls Nerf

Yeah, that's what I've been saying.

Pure stamina regen builds took a hit, but Refreshing Shadows now supports a wider range of Nightblade builds. Or, before, a skill gave +30% to a regen stat, now it gives +45% total. Yeah, guys that's a nerf.

There's a major push with this patch to support hybrid builds, and with that in mind, this change makes perfect sense.

Ezareth

MCMancub wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

MCMancub wrote: »

Combined with the nerf to the WW passive (a nerf I believe was very much needed), Stam NB lost almost a third (literally 30%) of the stamina regeneration they had before. Why? I realize ZOS was wanting to make the passive more rounded for all types of builds, but it really hurt stamina regeneration for the entire NB stamina dps play-style. It wasn't dangerously high or a seriously overpowered mechanic. Now it feels like I'm being forced to use a drink simply because my regeneration is under-par, even for PvE.

EDIT: And this is coming from a Redguard.

This is why. That is just self-buffed with only two Stamina-regen set bonuses and no stamina regen enchants on a non-emp. I could get it well over 5K if I wanted.

That's totally fine. You're built for stamina regen with a race that already gets bonuses for it. I have no issue with that. You sacrifice damage in the form of potentially 15k more stamina and can hinder yourself with the changes to dodge roll.

Now flip the scenario. Instead of building for regen, build for flat resources and you'll see that *for this build*, the regen nerf hits hard. Like someone said above, they're just forcing us to play a certain way now.

You can't get away without building regen anymore. You're forced to sacrifice resources and damage to have even the minimum amount necessary. That's lame.

EDIT: I have 13k more stamina than you. Converted to damage that's 1238 additional weapon damage. That's HUGE.

Once 2.1 goes live I'll be just as efficient or more.

Vet 15 Food
Vet 15 Tri-pots
Vet 15 Stamina Cost reduction enchants
Another months worth of champion points which I'll redistribute some magicka regen to more stamina regen to rebalance the increase in magicka regen and lost of stamina regen.
Since I can no longer "perma-roll" I'll be removing my points from tumbling and putting them into warlord.

All in all I don't see resources being an issue at all, and the weapon damage stacking that most people were doing that was nerfed wont really affect me as much.

Now that health is far more powerful I'm planning on switching some of my attributes from health back to stamina. I have more health than most people who are running even food.

Ezareth

PBpsy wrote: »

This was actually a greater hit on Magicka NBs since it nerfed something we already had little of. In conjunction with the stam regen on blocking we might as well forget that blocking, interrupting dodge roiling exists.

Pretty much my thoughts as well. Stamina regen was nerfed for everyone with WW so I'm expecting sorcs will have a harder time of it as well.

Zsymon

Blocking and dodge rolling, interrupting.. things like this should be important mechanics in ESO, they should be vital, but the latest changes made them all but useless. ESO might as well devolve into a common old-school MMO like this, the only thing that's left is Break Free.

Vatter

because being able to dodge roll and block with 3k+ stamina regen is total BS. I'm glad they made those changes and I hope they keep them.