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There is no BEST _______
kylerjalen
✭✭✭
So I'm scrolling through the threads and I see countless questions starting off with "What is the best..."
THERE IS NO BEST:
build
class
weapon
spell
setup
etc.etc.etc.etc.etc
There's the ideal but not best (the difference is subtle). In reality your character is what you make it. I once paired up with a V1 Templar jump into a vet and hold his own against a V12 NB and V14 DK (he actually was able to kill one of them before others from our group arrived and chased off the second guy.) If you know your character and its capabilities, you can be a force to be reckoned with.
I have also found out that builds also largely depend on the situation. The above mentioned Templar told me he has different armor sets and abilities for use in dungeons, solo play, and pvp. Its all about flexibility.
It takes three things to make a "best" character:
#1 Knowing the classes, skills, and armor/weapon sets available to you
#2 Knowing how to best synergize their use
#3 Actual playing skill
That's it.
A better way to get the ideal build is to look at what others have created, get into chat, and experiment.
To me thats the fun part.
THERE IS NO BEST:
build
class
weapon
spell
setup
etc.etc.etc.etc.etc
There's the ideal but not best (the difference is subtle). In reality your character is what you make it. I once paired up with a V1 Templar jump into a vet and hold his own against a V12 NB and V14 DK (he actually was able to kill one of them before others from our group arrived and chased off the second guy.) If you know your character and its capabilities, you can be a force to be reckoned with.
I have also found out that builds also largely depend on the situation. The above mentioned Templar told me he has different armor sets and abilities for use in dungeons, solo play, and pvp. Its all about flexibility.
It takes three things to make a "best" character:
#1 Knowing the classes, skills, and armor/weapon sets available to you
#2 Knowing how to best synergize their use
#3 Actual playing skill
That's it.
A better way to get the ideal build is to look at what others have created, get into chat, and experiment.
To me thats the fun part.
4
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ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭Unfortunately, underlying all those graphics and skills and experience is a big fat pile of numbers and math. Numbers are objective; somewhere out there there -is- in fact a "best" set of number to perform in any particular scenario.
If, in theory, a single player could play with every possible build; one of them would be better than all the rest; even if only by a fraction of a percent.
Yes, skill and experience play a factor in how well a character is played, but none of that has any bearing on the underlying math. A player can be playing the objectively best build in the game and still be bad because they are a bad player; that doesn't detract from the quality of the build."As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?3 -
kylerjalen✭✭✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »Unfortunately, underlying all those graphics and skills and experience is a big fat pile of numbers and math. Numbers are objective; somewhere out there there -is- in fact a "best" set of number to perform in any particular scenario.
This is true. And yes I agree. I do have a question and thought though.
1. Has the "best" build been found for this update? I haven't seen it yet.
2. The nature of this game and its continuous updates and rebalancing dictate that there can never really be a permanent best build, only an ideal one at a particular time.
If, in theory, a single player could play with every possible build; one of them would be better than all the rest; even if only by a fraction of a percent.
And to that I have to tip my hat to DKs.
Yes, skill and experience play a factor in how well a character is played, but none of that has any bearing on the underlying math. A player can be playing the objectively best build in the game and still be bad because they are a bad player; that doesn't detract from the quality of the build.
Again, I totally agree there.
1 -
Blackhorne✭✭✭✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »Unfortunately, underlying all those graphics and skills and experience is a big fat pile of numbers and math. Numbers are objective; somewhere out there there -is- in fact a "best" set of number to perform in any particular scenario.
If, in theory, a single player could play with every possible build; one of them would be better than all the rest; even if only by a fraction of a percent.
I've highlighted what I believe to be the most important parts of your quote.
The first is very important, because a build that is good for one particular scenario is not necessarily good for other scenarios. In fact, one aspect of balancing a game like this is ensuring that there is enough variety in scenarios that every build has its strong and its weak scenarios.
It also speaks the second part. You say one of them would be better than all the rest, but at what? At all scenarios, equally balanced? That doesn't work because few to no players play all scenarios in this game to the same degree. At the scenarios balanced by mean or median usage? That too is not likely to appeal to very many players. So there are really as many "best" builds as there are players, because everyone plays a little differently.
Finally, the second emphazised point could be rephrased as the goal of the team balancing this game: get the differences between builds down to a low enough percentage that the work necessary to determine the best is great enough that finding and proving it would take longer than the time between rebalancing.
My approach to all of this is to paraphrase my favorite TV show theme song: It's just a game; you should really just relax.
1 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭Blackhorne wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Unfortunately, underlying all those graphics and skills and experience is a big fat pile of numbers and math. Numbers are objective; somewhere out there there -is- in fact a "best" set of number to perform in any particular scenario.
If, in theory, a single player could play with every possible build; one of them would be better than all the rest; even if only by a fraction of a percent.
I've highlighted what I believe to be the most important parts of your quote.
The first is very important, because a build that is good for one particular scenario is not necessarily good for other scenarios. In fact, one aspect of balancing a game like this is ensuring that there is enough variety in scenarios that every build has its strong and its weak scenarios.
It also speaks the second part. You say one of them would be better than all the rest, but at what? At all scenarios, equally balanced? That doesn't work because few to no players play all scenarios in this game to the same degree. At the scenarios balanced by mean or median usage? That too is not likely to appeal to very many players. So there are really as many "best" builds as there are players, because everyone plays a little differently.
Finally, the second emphazised point could be rephrased as the goal of the team balancing this game: get the differences between builds down to a low enough percentage that the work necessary to determine the best is great enough that finding and proving it would take longer than the time between rebalancing.
My approach to all of this is to paraphrase my favorite TV show theme song: It's just a game; you should really just relax.
Sounds like we're just mincing words over what it means to be "best."
Ultimately I was just playing devil's advocate to the OP. As long as there's math involved, something is going to be quantitatively better than everything else. It's inevitable.
That said, I highlighted the most important part of your post as well.
"As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?0 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »Unfortunately, underlying all those graphics and skills and experience is a big fat pile of numbers and math. Numbers are objective; somewhere out there there -is- in fact a "best" set of number to perform in any particular scenario.
If it was only numbers then when my husband and I both tried NB's for the first time, we would have both had the same success with the same skill combinations.
Yes, if your character is run entirely by macros, then there is a "best".
If a person plays the character ... then it depends.Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis0 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭newtinmpls wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Unfortunately, underlying all those graphics and skills and experience is a big fat pile of numbers and math. Numbers are objective; somewhere out there there -is- in fact a "best" set of number to perform in any particular scenario.
If it was only numbers then when my husband and I both tried NB's for the first time, we would have both had the same success with the same skill combinations.
Yes, if your character is run entirely by macros, then there is a "best".
If a person plays the character ... then it depends.
You're mixing up the quality of the build with player skill.
You wouldn't give two separate people the same paint brush and expect them both to be Monet."As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?1 -
kylerjalen✭✭✭@kylerjalen
It looks like you've edited the quote.
Yeah. Was typing in a rush.
So what did you mean by "just no" @Seaber ?0 -
kylerjalen✭✭✭@ShedsHisTail
I know that what I stated seemed like there truly was no best build. There is, in terms of raw numbers but there are a lot of other stuff that comes into play.
To me, the best build is what works for you and if you're able to hold your own and play comfortably, the way you want to play, then THAT is the best, for you.
My thing has always been take what is out there and make it uniquely your own instead of just copying someone's build completely and changing the alt name.
0 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭kylerjalen wrote: »@ShedsHisTail
I know that what I stated seemed like there truly was no best build. There is, in terms of raw numbers but there are a lot of other stuff that comes into play.
To me, the best build is what works for you and if you're able to hold your own and play comfortably, the way you want to play, then THAT is the best, for you.
My thing has always been take what is out there and make it uniquely your own instead of just copying someone's build completely and changing the alt name.
It didn't so much "seem" like you said it...
You explicitly said, "There is no best build."
That said, I agree with your modified stance.
Player skill, and familiarity with the game play a much larger role in how effectively -any- build performs than do the raw numbers."As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?0 -
kylerjalen✭✭✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »kylerjalen wrote: »@ShedsHisTail
I know that what I stated seemed like there truly was no best build. There is, in terms of raw numbers but there are a lot of other stuff that comes into play.
To me, the best build is what works for you and if you're able to hold your own and play comfortably, the way you want to play, then THAT is the best, for you.
My thing has always been take what is out there and make it uniquely your own instead of just copying someone's build completely and changing the alt name.
It didn't so much "seem" like you said it...
You explicitly said, "There is no best build."
That said, I agree with your modified stance.
Player skill, and familiarity with the game play a much larger role in how effectively -any- build performs than do the raw numbers.
Well let me put it this way, nothing is certain. Not even certainty.
I hope that's clear
0 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭Certainly."As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?0 -
KerinKor✭✭✭✭✭
✭
No, he simply missed a endqoute/quote pairing when he added his comments to the first part of a multi-part quote.@kylerjalen
It looks like you've edited the quote.Edited by KerinKor on July 14, 2015 7:16AM0 -
Seaber✭✭✭kylerjalen wrote: »@kylerjalen
It looks like you've edited the quote.
Yeah. Was typing in a rush.
So what did you mean by "just no" @Seaber ?
Skill 1: 100 damage, 100 mana cost
Skill 2: 1 damage, 100 mana cost
Which ability is the best?0 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »You're mixing up the quality of the build with player skill.
You wouldn't give two separate people the same paint brush and expect them both to be Monet.
No. I'm not. A couple of two-skill synergies does not a 'build' make. I'm saying that for me, a particular set of two skills was very easy for me to synergize. When my husband tried that combination, he just couldn't make it work as efficiently or as effectively as I could.
He found a particular other set of two skills to synergize; and that set didn't work for me.
We were both noobs, we were both playing on the same internet connection (so there was no effective difference in lag); but as unique individuals we had different individual experiences.
Multiply that out by the myriad of skills that we have - and sure you are going to find combinations that work for more than one person. You will also find combinations that 'just don't work' for some particular people. Doesn't mean it's a particularly good (or bad) "build".
Just means its a good (or bad) fit.Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis0 -
Machiavelli✭✭✭There is most definitely a definitive best for pretty much all categories. There is also a definitive "worst" as well.0
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kylerjalen✭✭✭kylerjalen wrote: »@kylerjalen
It looks like you've edited the quote.
Yeah. Was typing in a rush.
So what did you mean by "just no" @Seaber ?
Skill 1: 100 damage, 100 mana cost
Skill 2: 1 damage, 100 mana cost
Which ability is the best?
Oh I don't know.
The first one?
But we're talking about builds, not single abilities.
Anyway, everything I wanted to say was said in the ensuing comments. In short, there's both a good and a not so good build for every situation in the game.
I'm done.0 -
Seaber✭✭✭kylerjalen wrote: »Oh I don't know.
The first one?
But we're talking about builds, not single abilities.
Anyway, everything I wanted to say was said in the ensuing comments. In short, there's both a good and a not so good build for every situation in the game.
I'm done.
But you saidkylerjalen wrote: »THERE IS NO BEST:
build
class
weapon
spell
setup
etc.etc.etc.etc.etc0 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭newtinmpls wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »You're mixing up the quality of the build with player skill.
You wouldn't give two separate people the same paint brush and expect them both to be Monet.
No. I'm not. A couple of two-skill synergies does not a 'build' make. I'm saying that for me, a particular set of two skills was very easy for me to synergize. When my husband tried that combination, he just couldn't make it work as efficiently or as effectively as I could.
He found a particular other set of two skills to synergize; and that set didn't work for me.
We were both noobs, we were both playing on the same internet connection (so there was no effective difference in lag); but as unique individuals we had different individual experiences.
Multiply that out by the myriad of skills that we have - and sure you are going to find combinations that work for more than one person. You will also find combinations that 'just don't work' for some particular people. Doesn't mean it's a particularly good (or bad) "build".
Just means its a good (or bad) fit.
You just said exactly what I said.
You were using the same class, but different builds because your -ability- to use said skills differed.
You're talking about player ability, not quality of build. Yes, some players will play some builds more effectively than others; however, none of that detracts from the actual math of the build.
If my build can potentially pump out 3K dps, and yours can potentially pump out 3.5k dps; you've got the better build for a dps situation. Despite the fact that in using your build I might only be able to achieve 2.9k because I'm not used to the way you play. Your build is still objectively better; I'm just bad at it."As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?0 -
ShedsHisTail wrote: »newtinmpls wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Unfortunately, underlying all those graphics and skills and experience is a big fat pile of numbers and math. Numbers are objective; somewhere out there there -is- in fact a "best" set of number to perform in any particular scenario.
If it was only numbers then when my husband and I both tried NB's for the first time, we would have both had the same success with the same skill combinations.
Yes, if your character is run entirely by macros, then there is a "best".
If a person plays the character ... then it depends.
You're mixing up the quality of the build with player skill.
You wouldn't give two separate people the same paint brush and expect them both to be Monet.
Similarly, I doubt Monet could have created his Water Lilies using an assortment of spray paints...1 -
kylerjalen✭✭✭kylerjalen wrote: »Oh I don't know.
The first one?
But we're talking about builds, not single abilities.
Anyway, everything I wanted to say was said in the ensuing comments. In short, there's both a good and a not so good build for every situation in the game.
I'm done.
But you saidkylerjalen wrote: »THERE IS NO BEST:
build
class
weapon
spell
setup
etc.etc.etc.etc.etc
1. Re-read the ensuing discussion.
2. I should have added + signs after all of those as that is what I meant, all of them. Anyway, like I said, I'm done.
Off to do pledges. Have a nice day in Tamriel.
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Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It seems the actual "what build is best" is only asked in pvp.
Which in my experience is a unrealistic question.
Very rarely do we face in 1 v1 battle, this makes the whole importance of your single build moot. Say you are dps, without a buddy you are dead. Same with tank etc... I have found that the "best" is the group with more members.
In PVE every build is viable, every build can compete in PvE, making the question again moot.
Again, the "best" depends on your enemy. If you are facing a tank, your tank build probably wont be considered "best"
What if your opponent is faster? You may do more dps, and have more health, but if you cant achieve victory because they ran away, how can you be "best"?
The question seems to be an insanely unimportant question. As the factors that are used to determine "best" are so rarely encountered, why bother worrying about it?1 -
Azalin76✭✭✭I agree that there is no best build, it does come down to skill and reaction time. Player A might have really fast reaction time and be able to block or move out of damage faster than Player B so therefore Player A may need far less health than Player B. In this game I have found that reaction time is one of the most important skills to have to succeed.1 -
Lynx7386✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There is no best Sandwich
But a good philly cheesesteak sure comes close.Edited by Lynx7386 on July 14, 2015 10:32PMPS4 / NA
M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank0 -
Lynx7386✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PS4 / NA
M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank1 -
Lynx7386✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭On a more serious and on-topic note, however, there IS a best race, and that would be khajiit. Nevermind the passives and racial perks, they're the best, just because they're khajiit. Dont try to argue, you cant argue with a cat.PS4 / NA
M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank1