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A Champion Point system that I believe both players and developers would like

Enraged_Tiki_Torch
Enraged_Tiki_Torch
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I am sure the good people at Zenimax have heard this from people before. There are people who enjoy the system and people who hate this system. If you take time to read this, thank you cause it's long.

I love the idea of the Champion Point system but yes I am apart of the crowd that sees it as a destructive game ending system. I remember when it was first announced and everyone loved the idea. I was one who immediately spoke out about the problems that it's current system would pose. It's just now that many players and even the people at Zenimax are becoming aware of them. The core failure in the system is how a player acquires Champion Points and what the cap would be upon release.

The majority of players know that acquiring CP is done most effectively by grinding mobs. Particular Areas in each zone have a ton of mobs with a quick respawn rate and good XP. I know Zenimax didn't intend this as they said it would take the average player around 2 hours to acquire one. I can get a CP without enlightenment in about 20 minutes. The people that care about this system are also aware of it and doing just that. People that are playing just casually experiencing the world aren't that concerned or just impartial to the idea. I understand that. But what I would suggest would also award those players as well.

Here's my problem. This is such a beautiful game with loads of content. I know the people at Zenimax worked very hard to give us this game, and I am sure as developers they want players to experience the things they created. Instead the Champion System has created a mentality in the players to go to X spot, run in a circle pulling a bunch of mobs, spam cast the AOE ability on their bar, collect XP, rinse and repeat. And they do this for hundreds of hours in the game, experiencing not even 1% percent of the content the game provides past a point. To me, that is such a waste of great content. I know this was unintended as this game was advertised as the best XP was from doing quests. Regardless this is what many players are doing.

I want to clarify at least my philosophy on the reason so many players grind. It isn't because it is exciting and an awesome experience. It is because that is the fastest way to reach end-game and see if the game is in fact fun and worth the investment. It is also a race for some to get there first or the fastest. I get 3600 CP is sort of like a race. No it isn't, it's like an ant looking at the top of Mount Everest and saying GO! Or being told at birth your goal in life is to become President. Yeah it's possible but holy crap is it a ton of work. Games are supposed to be fun and relaxing, an escape from choirs and timeclocks in real life. 3600 CP is not sensible goal for a game genre that has an expected lifespan of a year at best before the next hyped up game is released.

In the last ESO Live, Eric Wrobel said they are increasing quest XP by 50%. Not nearly enough, like I said I get around 400k xp in 20 minutes. The best XP I get from a quest is around 18k. Add 50%, it's 27k. Those quests take about 20 minutes to complete. Do I want to spend 20 minutes getting 27k xp or 400k xp?? Guess which I am choosing. Even the worst grind spots are giving you at least 5x or more the XP you would get from a quest. And you can't increase it more cause then gameplay would be completing 4-5 quests per zone (pre-veteran) and you outlevel it. Again, wasting 90% of the content Zenimax created.

The other is 200% increased XP in public dungeons. Ok, I get it but now your just going to flood zones like the Craglorn Public Dungeons with 20+ people all doing the same thing. It will be like the beginning days with all the BoT farmers ruining everyones gameplay experience in dungeons. Also unless you remove the diminishing returns on XP according to how many people attack the mob, this is going to again be a waste of time. You might as well just revert back to the old Craglorn grind which apparently your producers didn't like in the first place. Really though your just moving your population from one cave to a different cave and making that the Elder Scroll Online experience.

The last proposed change is to increase the amount of XP needed to gain CPs past a certain number, said 300 then 600 and so on. Will it actually let people catch up? Sorta but really once the XP required is so large for an diminished effect from gaining CPs. No one is really going to care about this system. So why have the cap at 3600 if 1125 is the actually points need to max all passives. Again, it already takes the 1200+ hr grind to get 3600 CP even longer to acquire and there is no real benefit from getting to that number.

Regardless, the whole issue I have with the system is how players acquire those points. There has to be something better...

The solution to me is to award players Champion Points by completing Achievements. As a developer, I would think this would be embraced. Awarding people for overcoming the challenges you have created, experiencing your game and what you created. Isn't that the point of being a game designer? Make an awesome game and show it off to the world. In my opinion, you did the first right but the CP grind is so counterproductive in giving people a reason to experience it.

Of course, each Achievement would award a different amount of CPs based on the difficulty or time commitment required. Getting killed by a slaughterfish would be grant a player 1 CP while getting maxed rank in Cryodil would give a player 10 CP.

Also, only a select few currently are truly hard to acquire so most players will acquire the majority of them without issue. Just takes time and effort, which means all players will relatively be close to the same power level acquired from the CP system. Those who accomplished the harder goals (Achievements) will be happily rewarded because they earned it. So this whole balancing issue your hearing about now would be resolved. New console players wouldn't feel like they are 200-300 points behind PC transfers. You would also acquire them for all time played in the game, not just Veteran ranks so character progression would once again be linear. Not just in Veteran levels or a level 3 with 300 CP god-moding content.

I am going to assume that no one has every Achievement, so there are still goals for players to achieve. Also it's very easy to create new Achievements in game, such as obtain a certain amount of points in a Trial run. Really you could brainstorm and come up with some great Achievements in the game and they would be easy to implement. It would also make any future content feel more rewarding. And as a player, it would encourage the need to explore and achieve goals by doing something that at least the developers thought was worth doing. In playing this game like I think it was intended, players would be rewarded for it instead of running in a circle for 1200+ hours of gameplay neglecting such a large portion of what the developers worked so hard to create. The fact that this is how this system is being used should draw concern for the people at Zenimax. At the very least, for them to look at other solutions.

When it comes to those that already grinding up to 300+ CP, how would you resolve this if it did transfer over. Let them keep their points, but that is actually mute. I am sure those with 300+ CP have completed quite a few Achievements. Actually I would think the number of CP they have now would actually go up. Who would oppose that???

Anyway if you read all my rabblings, cheers to you. If you disagree that's cool, you can flame me in the comments. To the people at Zenimax, I am not trying to tell you how to make your game just offering a suggestion and my views and solutions. You have made an excellent game, hats off to you. Just throwing my thoughts out to you, wish you the best. I will continue to enjoy your game regardless of what you decide to do.
My solution to Champion Point System here
  • KatzMainTank
    KatzMainTank
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    I agree with your opinion on Quest XP potentially being a problem, especially when you can get 4x that amount doing something else in a shorter period of time. Perhaps these longer quests should include bonus XP during the quest lines. For example say a quest line has 3 particular areas before completion. Maybe increasing the XP per turn in until completion would be a way to increase quest incentives.

    You accept the quest. You go talk to NPC and receive 10% of the total XP for quest completion, kill so many mobs or attain quest items then turn in to NPC and recieve 15%, finally you do the last part of the quest and turn in receiving 20% bonus XP on top of the completion XP. In other words, after you've completed a quest line you've received 10/15/20% on TOP of the actual XP. A simpler version would to just add a buff to completing so many quests consecutively.

    Variables can be adjusted depending on the quest line. Shorter quests could be around 5-10% bonus XP, the longer ones could be up to 25-30%. It's just an idea I got reading through your XP comparisons.
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  • Enraged_Tiki_Torch
    Enraged_Tiki_Torch
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    @ KatzMainTank It would require such a huge boost in Quest XP to make it worth doing verse grinding trash mobs in a V10 zone. If a quest gives 18k and grinding giving 400k, the bonus xp would have to be a 2200% increase. Yes, that absurb and it's a one time shot verse grinding which is infinite xp gain. The problem this causes is in future content. Such as the upcoming Wrothgar expansion. Players should question themselves "why quest there?". For Zenimax, why would anyone buy the expansion??? So where are they gonna make money? XP potions? That is a very slippery slope cause that would be P2W. They might as well shut down the servers at that point. CP grind is the endgame. If a players can continue to grind towards that goal, their is no reason to do anything but farm v10 trash mobs even with the v16 increase. At 3600, it's gonna be awhile.
    My solution to Champion Point System here
  • Enraged_Tiki_Torch
    Enraged_Tiki_Torch
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    The fact is the Champion point system will break the game. Right now, it's balance issues because you have a difference of a hundred of so CP between an average player and a grind-a-holic. What happens when players have 3600 CP?

    One itemization: Their isn't any 12 pieces of gear that could possibly give you what CP gives you right now. 2200% XP gain bad? Try all passives maxed, what does that give you. Example, cost reduction enchantments. it's like 126 or something on a gold, the passive gives you 25% reduction. On an ability that is 4000 base cost, that's a reduction of a 1000. You would need 8 gold enchantments to get the same benefit from 1 CP passive, theres 36. Only 12 pieces of gear.

    Why even create gear in the future??? What will be the incentive to play in the future?

    Content difficulty; If you got 3600 CP. There is no possible way to balance content to make it reasonably difficult for maxed CP players and players with maybe a 100. You will be one shotted by mudcrabs if you don't have a crapload of CP. You can test this right now on PTS, create a character and do content. You can walk around naked and solo dolmens and anomalities.

    Like I said, right now 3 months in and it's just balance issues. In a year, it will be broken.

    I stress the Champion Point System isn't the fault, it's how players get them and how high the cap is. If the cap was 1125, it's far more manageable and the game can adjust easy. it also requires players to get them without having to spend hundred of hours grinding mobs. Players need to be close in numbers, the bigger the disparity the worse the problem.
    My solution to Champion Point System here
  • 7788b14_ESO
    7788b14_ESO
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    3600 is busy work to give players something to do instead of new content. When people start getting even close to that they will come up with something else and people who grinded all that cp will be very angry to discover it's for naught. It will probably end being nurfed because players will say others are to unbalanced and op.
  • 7788b14_ESO
    7788b14_ESO
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    All it will take is a few videos of high cp players being unbeatable in pvp and the nerf hammer will hit, hard.
  • Enraged_Tiki_Torch
    Enraged_Tiki_Torch
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    @ 7788b14_ESO which will create a mass exodus and shut down the servers.

    Sad thing is, I really like this game. There are flaws but I would like it to be successful. I am definitely not trying to be "all sky is falling" so maybe someone can prove me wrong. At least I will have peace.
    My solution to Champion Point System here
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