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Vampirism and how it could be better
Shineko
✭✭✭
Many of you may not know the skill in the vampire skill line, some of you probably just don't care.
I'm going to make a comprehensive post about Vampirism and how I think it could be better.
The point of this post isn't to buff or nerf vampires in PvE or PvP.
Let's start off with the skills. These are the skills that make the vampire line try and feel vampire-like. I will also include the ongoing passives from the stages 1 through 4 of hunger.
[Bat Swarm] Active: Summon a bat swarm which deals magic damage to nearby enemies ever 1 second for 5 seconds.
-Skyrim Vampire lords have an akin blink ability which transforms you into bats. Really silly and awkward but a strong ability.
[Drain Essence] Active, Channeled: Stun target for 3 seconds and do magic damage every 1 sec. Player recovers 150% of damage dealt as Health and Stamina every 1 second. Cannot be applied to targets that have recently been drained or fed upon.
-Great ability, bread and butter of the skill line and an occasional dependency when fighting against enemies that deal fire damage. Very buggy ability. Targets that are immune to being stunned are immune to the activation meaning they can't take just the damage portion or heal the player. The only notice you get is a little text in the top right corner of the screen that says 'Target Immune' and you can very easily die if you depend on the healing from this ability especially when fighting a boss or regular enemy that deals fire. Do not assume you can use this ability in a boss / elite fight or you will be disappointed most of the time. What makes it worse is that it will work on some elites and some bosses. Even random non elite enemies will be immune and the classification feels totally random.
[Mist Form] Active, Channeled: Take 75% Reduced damage from all sources. Invulnerable to healing magic and control effects.
-Underestimated ability. Only really useful for tanking extreme burst damage or for disengaging and running. Correct use of this ability can win scenario's that would be previously unwinnable.
Now that we have covered the actives, you would think that a lot of those sound really strong. Yes they are, in some cases too strong and a little pullback could be welcome but now let's cover the passives to paint a clearer picture of the vampires identity.
Savage Feeding Passive: After feeding, target is stunned and off balance for 2/4 seconds.
-This ability promotes feeding. It is, however, almost entirely useless. Take note that any target you feed on will not allow you to use Drain Essence on them. At base, your Drain ability stuns the target for 3 seconds AND heals you for 150% of it's damage while this just lowers your feeding level and angers the target. The only usefulness for this ability is in feeding [and I'm going to cover why feeding is almost entirely pointless].
Supernatural Recovery Passive: Increases Magicka and Stamina Recovery by 5%/10%.
-Great for mana or stamina users all around. Definitely recommended.
Blood Ritual Passive: Every 7 days, turn a player into a vampire at the altar.
-Make more vampires.
Undeath Passive: Increase damage mitigation when player is below 30%/50% health. Mitigation scales up to 50% dependent on players health.
-Absolutely mandatory. Until you get this passive. Fire will be your utter doom. With this perk you can even tank most PvE content and your healer will love healing you. This along with Mist Form is a very strong combination.
Unnatural Resistance Passive: Health regen is increased for vampirism stages 2-4.
-Very meh ability. Is significant if you always sit in stage 4 all the time.
Dark Stalker Passive: Move faster while sneaking and enter stealth more quickly at night.
-Nice ability. I wish there were more night vs day things for Vampirism than just a perk at night.
LAST BUT NOT LEAST
The reason why feeding is nearly pointless.
Stage 1 Vampirism: Take 40% more fire damage.
Stage 2 Vampirism: Take 40% more fire damage. HP Regen 25% Slower. Vampire Abilities cost 20% Less.
Stage 3 Vampirism: Take 40% more fire damage. HP Regen 50% Slower. Vampire Abilities cost 40% Less.
Stage 4 Vampirism: Take 40% more fire damage. HP Regen 75% Slower. Vampire Abilities cost 60% Less.
So let's get this straight. The hungrier you become the slower your passive hp regen is [still faster than skyrim by a significant amount] the cheaper your vampire skills are to cast. The trade off is by being hungrier, you can cast your INCREDIBLY STRONG vampire skills at less than half their cost for the trade off of slower HP regen. [Drain Essence totally negates this malus by itself]. Not only that, but this slower regen is only really noticeable outside of combat as all regeneration in combat is very low and with Drain Essence you usually finish a fight at full HP.
So the question, why feed ever? You should only feed if you remove your vampiric skils from the skill bar. That's it but then why be a vampire to begin with?
Feeding in this game is an incredibly poorly made mechanic and I'll cover the several things that if changed can make it an interactive and fun mechanic.
At present the problems are
Feeding vs Drain: Drain is always better, Feeding makes vampiric skills more expensive and only gives the benefit of reducing the HP Regen malus.
Drain Itself: competes with the Savage Feeding perk by already having it's own built in stun AND simultaneously gimping itself by being unusable on enemies with stun immunities.
The Hungrier your are the Stronger you are: This should not be a thing. This should not be a thing. This should not be a thing.
THE SOLUTIONS
----
SKILL CHANGES
[Drain Essence]
-No Longer Stuns. Will interrupt enemy casting if they are not immune but always castable.
-While channeling, damage taken from the target being drained is reduced by X% [Unsure of balanced value].
NEW BUFF
Recently Fed: Reduce fire damage susceptibility by half when having fed within the last 10 minutes. Cannot feed more than once every 5 minutes.
Each stage lasts 1 Hour before promoting to the next stage.
VAMPIRE SKILL LINE LEVELING
No longer uses player EXP to level vampire skill line. Instead, Vampire skill line is leveled by feeding.
As for Hunger Stage 1 [FED]
-Gains night vision [at night and in dark places] and short range detect life - Both passive abilities toggle-able and wont reactivate until toggled on.
-HP Regeneration is reduced by 25% in sunlight.
-Vampiric abilities cost 60% less to cast.
-Take 40% More Fire Damage. [Half if recently fed]
As for Hunger Stage 2/3/4
-Reduce Maximum HP by 7%/14%/20%.
-HP Regeneration is reduced by 50%/75%/90% in Sunlight.
-Take 60%/80%/100% More Fire Damage. [Half if recently fed]
-Vampiric abilities cost 30% less /0% less/30% more to cast.
-Lose Detect Life at stage 2. Lose night vision at stage 3.
-Stage 4 Vampirism scares the locals and will give a bounty of 100g if seen if you don't already have at least a bounty of 100g.
NOTES. The above suggestions traded power from Drain Essence [a vampire's bread and butter] for consistency and some lore friendly passives. Further tuning of the absolute strengths is definitely a welcome scenario and the numbers are only close approximations of theory before balance.
TL;DR
Please read it.
Edited by Shineko on June 14, 2015 3:24PM I'm going to make a comprehensive post about Vampirism and how I think it could be better.
The point of this post isn't to buff or nerf vampires in PvE or PvP.
Let's start off with the skills. These are the skills that make the vampire line try and feel vampire-like. I will also include the ongoing passives from the stages 1 through 4 of hunger.
[Bat Swarm] Active: Summon a bat swarm which deals magic damage to nearby enemies ever 1 second for 5 seconds.
-Skyrim Vampire lords have an akin blink ability which transforms you into bats. Really silly and awkward but a strong ability.
[Drain Essence] Active, Channeled: Stun target for 3 seconds and do magic damage every 1 sec. Player recovers 150% of damage dealt as Health and Stamina every 1 second. Cannot be applied to targets that have recently been drained or fed upon.
-Great ability, bread and butter of the skill line and an occasional dependency when fighting against enemies that deal fire damage. Very buggy ability. Targets that are immune to being stunned are immune to the activation meaning they can't take just the damage portion or heal the player. The only notice you get is a little text in the top right corner of the screen that says 'Target Immune' and you can very easily die if you depend on the healing from this ability especially when fighting a boss or regular enemy that deals fire. Do not assume you can use this ability in a boss / elite fight or you will be disappointed most of the time. What makes it worse is that it will work on some elites and some bosses. Even random non elite enemies will be immune and the classification feels totally random.
[Mist Form] Active, Channeled: Take 75% Reduced damage from all sources. Invulnerable to healing magic and control effects.
-Underestimated ability. Only really useful for tanking extreme burst damage or for disengaging and running. Correct use of this ability can win scenario's that would be previously unwinnable.
Now that we have covered the actives, you would think that a lot of those sound really strong. Yes they are, in some cases too strong and a little pullback could be welcome but now let's cover the passives to paint a clearer picture of the vampires identity.
Savage Feeding Passive: After feeding, target is stunned and off balance for 2/4 seconds.
-This ability promotes feeding. It is, however, almost entirely useless. Take note that any target you feed on will not allow you to use Drain Essence on them. At base, your Drain ability stuns the target for 3 seconds AND heals you for 150% of it's damage while this just lowers your feeding level and angers the target. The only usefulness for this ability is in feeding [and I'm going to cover why feeding is almost entirely pointless].
Supernatural Recovery Passive: Increases Magicka and Stamina Recovery by 5%/10%.
-Great for mana or stamina users all around. Definitely recommended.
Blood Ritual Passive: Every 7 days, turn a player into a vampire at the altar.
-Make more vampires.
Undeath Passive: Increase damage mitigation when player is below 30%/50% health. Mitigation scales up to 50% dependent on players health.
-Absolutely mandatory. Until you get this passive. Fire will be your utter doom. With this perk you can even tank most PvE content and your healer will love healing you. This along with Mist Form is a very strong combination.
Unnatural Resistance Passive: Health regen is increased for vampirism stages 2-4.
-Very meh ability. Is significant if you always sit in stage 4 all the time.
Dark Stalker Passive: Move faster while sneaking and enter stealth more quickly at night.
-Nice ability. I wish there were more night vs day things for Vampirism than just a perk at night.
LAST BUT NOT LEAST
The reason why feeding is nearly pointless.
Stage 1 Vampirism: Take 40% more fire damage.
Stage 2 Vampirism: Take 40% more fire damage. HP Regen 25% Slower. Vampire Abilities cost 20% Less.
Stage 3 Vampirism: Take 40% more fire damage. HP Regen 50% Slower. Vampire Abilities cost 40% Less.
Stage 4 Vampirism: Take 40% more fire damage. HP Regen 75% Slower. Vampire Abilities cost 60% Less.
So let's get this straight. The hungrier you become the slower your passive hp regen is [still faster than skyrim by a significant amount] the cheaper your vampire skills are to cast. The trade off is by being hungrier, you can cast your INCREDIBLY STRONG vampire skills at less than half their cost for the trade off of slower HP regen. [Drain Essence totally negates this malus by itself]. Not only that, but this slower regen is only really noticeable outside of combat as all regeneration in combat is very low and with Drain Essence you usually finish a fight at full HP.
So the question, why feed ever? You should only feed if you remove your vampiric skils from the skill bar. That's it but then why be a vampire to begin with?
Feeding in this game is an incredibly poorly made mechanic and I'll cover the several things that if changed can make it an interactive and fun mechanic.
At present the problems are
Feeding vs Drain: Drain is always better, Feeding makes vampiric skills more expensive and only gives the benefit of reducing the HP Regen malus.
Drain Itself: competes with the Savage Feeding perk by already having it's own built in stun AND simultaneously gimping itself by being unusable on enemies with stun immunities.
The Hungrier your are the Stronger you are: This should not be a thing. This should not be a thing. This should not be a thing.
THE SOLUTIONS
----
SKILL CHANGES
[Drain Essence]
-No Longer Stuns. Will interrupt enemy casting if they are not immune but always castable.
-While channeling, damage taken from the target being drained is reduced by X% [Unsure of balanced value].
NEW BUFF
Recently Fed: Reduce fire damage susceptibility by half when having fed within the last 10 minutes. Cannot feed more than once every 5 minutes.
Each stage lasts 1 Hour before promoting to the next stage.
VAMPIRE SKILL LINE LEVELING
No longer uses player EXP to level vampire skill line. Instead, Vampire skill line is leveled by feeding.
As for Hunger Stage 1 [FED]
-Gains night vision [at night and in dark places] and short range detect life - Both passive abilities toggle-able and wont reactivate until toggled on.
-HP Regeneration is reduced by 25% in sunlight.
-Vampiric abilities cost 60% less to cast.
-Take 40% More Fire Damage. [Half if recently fed]
As for Hunger Stage 2/3/4
-Reduce Maximum HP by 7%/14%/20%.
-HP Regeneration is reduced by 50%/75%/90% in Sunlight.
-Take 60%/80%/100% More Fire Damage. [Half if recently fed]
-Vampiric abilities cost 30% less /0% less/30% more to cast.
-Lose Detect Life at stage 2. Lose night vision at stage 3.
-Stage 4 Vampirism scares the locals and will give a bounty of 100g if seen if you don't already have at least a bounty of 100g.
NOTES. The above suggestions traded power from Drain Essence [a vampire's bread and butter] for consistency and some lore friendly passives. Further tuning of the absolute strengths is definitely a welcome scenario and the numbers are only close approximations of theory before balance.
TL;DR
Please read it.
1
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Shineko✭✭✭-sigh- I wish I could edit the main post. Like when I listed stage 2, 3 times instead of incrementing it.
Edit: Fixed, no longer relevantEdited by Shineko on June 14, 2015 3:15PM0 -
Korah_Eaglecry✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭you can edit it. just use the settings button that appears next to the title at the top.Penniless Sellsword CompanyCaptain Paramount - Jorrhaq VhentKorith Eaglecry * Enrerion Aedihle * Laerinel Rhaev * Caius Berilius * Seylina Ithvala * H'Vak the GrimjawlTenarei Rhaev * Dazsh Ro Khar * Yynril Rothvani * Bathes-In-Coin * Anaelle Faerniil * Azjani Ma'LesAban Shahid Bakr * Kheshna gra-Gharbuk * Gallisten Bondurant * Etain Maquier * Atsu Kalame * Faulpia SeverinusWhat is better, to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? - Paarthurnax0 -
Shineko✭✭✭Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »you can edit it. just use the settings button that appears next to the title at the top.
I love you.0 -
MornaBaine✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Shineko you say, "The Hungrier your are the Stronger you are: This should not be a thing. This should not be a thing. This should not be a thing."
So ALL of THIS. ^^
Welcome to the club of those of us who know vampires are really poorly implemented in this game and have begged ZoS to fix it to no avail. Here's your card.PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!2 -
Shineko✭✭✭MornaBaine wrote: »Shineko you say, "The Hungrier your are the Stronger you are: This should not be a thing. This should not be a thing. This should not be a thing."
So ALL of THIS. ^^
Welcome to the club of those of us who know vampires are really poorly implemented in this game and have begged ZoS to fix it to no avail. Here's your card.
I've been playing vampires since release, one of the first and I've had around 7 characters as vampires. The first thing I do when I make a new character is, if decided, go turn them into one. c:
Yes. I've been in the club for a very long time. I've just been pondering recently how to make it better.1 -
Ranique✭✭✭✭Drain essence: Although I agree that the immune thing is annoying, removing the stun would be a bad thing in my opinion. I think it would be better to make certain foes only imune to the stun part. The resistance to damage is allready in the pocket cause of the healing you gain while casting.
The extra importance to the feeding would mean it would be further promoting certain races and classes. The same goes for 100% fire damage increase. That number is ridicilious and would make the vampire only viable for dunmer.
I personally would remove all "more fire damage" from the stages, and replace it with a lesser amount of "increased incoming damage".
As for feeding. Although I do think that feeding might have a promotion, making it important for levelling the skilline is ridiculious. I think that making the dissease and stages permanent with levels would be much better. The feeding should work more as food (as thats what it basicly is). So a temporary buff (60 minutes) of magica, stamina and health. This can then be increased by the passive.
So remove the stages.
Instead a permanent dissease is added that gives (numbers optional for balancing:
- HP Regeneration is reduced by 40%.
-Take 40% More Damage.
- At night time, stealthradius is improved by 3 meters
Feeding gives a buff of 10% for 60 minutes to health, magica and stamina.
This is increased by the supernatural recovery (so super natural recovery only increases the effect of feeding instead of a permanent boost)
Feeding is merged with drain essence.
This means that drain essence stuns (if not imune), and if cast while stealthed and hidden, it activates feeding. You can feed as much as you can, but it just puts the buff again at 60 minutes.
All in all it would make feeding more a rewarding thing instead of a counter for some punishment. The nightbuff for stealth means it makes sense for a nocturnal dissease
Through me you pass into the city of woe:
Through me you pass into eternal pain:
Through me among the people lost for aye.
PC player - EU0 -
Shineko✭✭✭@Ranique
What I propose is lore friendly an inline with what TES series has done in it's many iterations with Vampirism.
The %Damage reduction from target being fed on is a partial compensation for the removal of the stun and modifiable to allow for better balancing in the passives.
Maintaining stage 1 vampirism is not as difficult as you make it to be and if you let yourself fall into stage 4, you deserve the consequences. Additionally, I have a feeling you have little experience with vampirism in this game. Vampires overall are incredibly lack luster and your only benefit to feeding is becoming weaker which pushes away the feeding mechanic.
Werewolves skill line progression is based on a similar to mechanic to what i propose with vampires feeding and they have no problems leveling their skill line.
By proposing that vampires take more damage altogether and removing increased fire damage indicates to me you have no clue how hard it is for vampires to survive when fighting against anything that uses fire.
Extra importance to feeding literally has no extra importance to any class. Feeding on citizens in any city is an overt action despite being done from stealth and counts as assault already regardless of how stealthy you are. You can feed on any enemy just fine as any class or race on any hostile humanoids without problem.
Drain Essence is a channeled ability and having a guaranteed pocket stun on any target is extremely overpowered and buggy. If you were going to compensate vampirism in passives, why not start with the flagship ability. The idea is not to make vampires stronger but more sensible, fun to play, and with better designed strengths and weaknesses.
By playing as a vampire you should be willing to dedicate yourself to acting like one; IE Feeding to maintain your strength. That is how it has always been and it is foolish to not only expect less but actually get less.0 -
Ranique✭✭✭✭The issue with lore friendly is that it isn't balanced. This is an mmo and therefor different then other ESO games. In my opinion, the lore should be of service of the gameplay and never the otherway around. that is why your proposal would make the vampire much less viable and not a good option.
My counter proposal is still very much lore friendcly, but also way more balancedThrough me you pass into the city of woe:
Through me you pass into eternal pain:
Through me among the people lost for aye.
PC player - EU0 -
Shineko✭✭✭The issue with lore friendly is that it isn't balanced. This is an mmo and therefor different then other ESO games. In my opinion, the lore should be of service of the gameplay and never the otherway around. that is why your proposal would make the vampire much less viable and not a good option.
My counter proposal is still very much lore friendcly, but also way more balanced
My proposal does not in any way make them any less viable than they are now and may in fact make them more viable in PvE and PvP if only slightly to keep up with Werewolves. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about in your proposal and if your changes ever went through I would cure my vampirism on every single character. Your proposal is an entire gutting of vampires.Edited by Shineko on June 14, 2015 4:04PM0 -
Lenikus✭✭✭✭✭Am I the only one that thinks that, as of right now, Vamps are actually just fine?
... Mai cave. >:30 -
PBpsy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭NEEDS MORE SPARKLES.
JK removal from the game would do just fine.ESO forums achievementsProud fanboiElitist jerkTrollHaterFan of icontested(rainbow colors granted)0 -
Raash✭✭✭✭How many times do I need to see this vampire blues? If anything buff the hell up everyone that dont take either of the two monster skill lines.
Stay in the ground ffs.0 -
PBpsy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Let me guess!
Someone stole your sweetroll?ESO forums achievementsProud fanboiElitist jerkTrollHaterFan of icontested(rainbow colors granted)0 -
BigM✭✭✭✭✭
✭Seems like some good ideas here and for anything to make them better. But I RP and vampires die when am around.
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.”
― Stephen Hawking0 -
Raash✭✭✭✭
woah thats big words from someone wearing a... bucket? (looks at avatar).
have you seen one vampire thread you have seen them all. "change this change that" in a never ending cacophony.
Only thing they need to do to fix stuff is to buff all players that decide not to go "that" road and we´re good to go. vampires are fine and so are the pudelbears2
![:\](https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\"){kind=small}