Why do you think the global cool down on Toppling Charge exists?

Jaxsun

glak

they're saying it's intended because it's too expensive to change it

Both anti-bot and now that the genius that added it is gone, it's too complex to remove correctly. GGG

Tankqull

i actually have no clue as implementing it has absolutly no benifit. it doesent prevent botting the slightest, it cant be bad design as it did work different in the beginning, so its at best a decission to change it that way ...

KanedaSyndrome

they're saying it's intended because they don't know how to change it

They don't know how to fix their own code, that's what I believe. We've seen it several times before. For instance, with the infinite mount sprint, that's not intended, but they don't know how to fix a simple bug like that, so suddenly it was a "feature".

They're basically clueless when it comes to their own game code.

SeptimusDova

other, please explain

It is being used to mask other problems. Hence the GCD If they remove it then they will have to fix the other underlying issues with it locking out all abilities on the bar. In addition TC applies a cc right off of the bat. Its sister morph does not.

danovic

other, please explain

Because it useing the shield charge subroutine but has a pause in place to compensate for the lack of the shield charge animation shield slam. It needs its own subroutine.

asteldian

they're saying it's intended because it's too expensive to change it

Too time consuming to fix, so made it a feature. Sloppy design basically.

tplink3r1

other, please explain

Every templar ability has to be:
1.Channeled
2.Cast
3.GCD
4.Useless(just like eclipse)

Teargrants

other, please explain

Where's the option for all of the above? I am all the disappoint.

tplink3r1

other, please explain

danovic wrote: »

Because it useing the shield charge subroutine but has a pause in place to compensate for the lack of the shield charge animation shield slam. It needs its own subroutine.

Wrong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Kb3lNjEnAI
As you can see in the video, i can use Jabs much faster after invasion, there is a 600 milliseconds delay on the templar charge.

PBpsy

other, please explain

tengri

they're saying it's intended because they don't know how to change it

This, actually.
Personally I've come to believe that no one who designed/worked on the code during pre/early launch is still around. Not counting the promotion/marketing suits of course... I mean the actual ppl who did the low level grunt work.
And now no one really knows what's going on under the hood and they are too afraid to touch stuff they dont fully understand...

Well... maybe not.
But sure feels that way - for me at least... just take a look at all those various attempts to "fix" stuff. Hardly anything ever worked out the way the patch notes suggested. *** like that happens if someone is playing with code they do not fully understand... and if there is not enough QA/testing to catch it before it hits the fan.

Ffastyl

other, please explain

Toppling Charge originally had no GCD, and it was being used/spammed to oblivion. Players would in an almost literal sense ping-pong across battlefields with more mobility than Sorcerers. How much wait time was there back then? Your controls were unlocked the moment you reached your target, not a millisecond afterwards. So if the animations played out right, you could Toppling Charge a single target twice or thrice in a row, without pause. This was the one skill everyone cried "nerf" for on Templars. And so it got a GCD.

tplink3r1

other, please explain

Ffastyl wrote: »

Toppling Charge originally had no GCD, and it was being used/spammed to oblivion. Players would in an almost literal sense ping-pong across battlefields with more mobility than Sorcerers. How much wait time was there back then? Your controls were unlocked the moment you reached your target, not a millisecond afterwards. So if the animations played out right, you could Toppling Charge a single target twice or thrice in a row, without pause. This was the one skill everyone cried "nerf" for on Templars. And so it got a GCD.

wut? I play this game since day 1 and i never heard someone asking zos to nerf the templar charge, lol.

Emma_Overload

they're saying it's intended because it's too expensive to change it

Ffastyl wrote: »

Toppling Charge originally had no GCD, and it was being used/spammed to oblivion. Players would in an almost literal sense ping-pong across battlefields with more mobility than Sorcerers. How much wait time was there back then? Your controls were unlocked the moment you reached your target, not a millisecond afterwards. So if the animations played out right, you could Toppling Charge a single target twice or thrice in a row, without pause. This was the one skill everyone cried "nerf" for on Templars. And so it got a GCD.

I can ping-pong around the same way with 2H's Critical Rush/Stampede... what difference does it make? I do believe you, though. This is exactly the kind of thing people whine about. Overload has a similar cooldown that makes it such a PITA to use sometimes. There was like ONE week on the PTS when the cooldown was removed, and it was awesome. Some people whined, though. and the cooldown came back with the next patch... yes, even the PTS has PvP whiners!

Yolokin_Swagonborn

other, please explain

@tengri is on the right path.

The cooldown was probably a side-effect of a bandaid they implemented to prevent another problem. It is a bug. They know its a bug. But fixing it means pulling off the bandaid and dealing with the festering mass underneath. Which could effect other parts of the code and have other potential side effects.

This happens often when a company buys a pre-fab software solution for their company. Usually something big like an ERP system (no, not that kind of ERP), a graphics engine, or a some other huge piece of software the permeates the whole business.

At first everything is fine. The company selling the software answers all your questions, accommodates all your demands for customization and support.

Then you cancel the maintenance contract and support service to save money. After all, a few of your programmers should be able to maintain and modify the code. They went to that 2 week seminar hosted by the software vendor after all. How hard could it be? This would be an awesome way to save money!

Then the cracks start to show. You start to learn the limitations of the software and there is only so much you can modify without getting deep into the code and really changing some low level settings. You try that one time, and really bork things up. The side-effects ricochet though the rest of the sorfware modules and it takes a week plus several expensive support calls to the software vendor to unscrew it. You mention to management that now might be the time to reconsider that service and support contract but they are no longer interested once the fire has been put back out and its back to business as usual.

This is about when the politics start. You have a great idea to fix or change something but it requires messing with some low level settings. Management is afraid to do that because of what happened last time. The manager that directly oversees those two programmers that actually know a bit about the code becomes a power broker in meetings.

Have a good idea? "We can't do that because the engine doesn't work that way." He says confidently. What he really means is he doesn't like that idea or doesn't want to commit his programmers to doing it because he has them doing other things.

So the people more closely related to the project always want to improve the game. Management doesn't give them the time and resources they need to fix things and crappy politics ensue.

Some variation of this is what usually happens. I wrote more about what happens next and how a bug magically turns into a feature in the other templar thread.It is the next step in this process.

KanedaSyndrome

they're saying it's intended because they don't know how to change it

PBpsy wrote: »

QFT

Hymzir

bad design

I almost voted:"they're saying it's intended because it's too expensive to change it" but ended up voting "bad design" because... Well, I have zero confidence in the design skills of the devs. They've shown it time after time, with imbalances and badly though out skills. The classes started inequal and have remained so. I still remember the hey-day of the Dragon Knights when we Templars shared the bottom of the barrel with the Nightblades. Everyone was running around with sticks in skirts and stamina builds were a joke and there was no downside to being a vampire.

When they finally fixed that they ended up making stamina users ridicilously powerful and turned Nightblades into insta killing OP flavor of the month. They also turned Cyrodiil into a first person shooter sniper fest. Now we Templars have a new buddy at the bottom of the barrel - the magicka base DK who totally got shot in the knee. But thanks to their former glory they haven't quite sunk to the same level of uselesness we Templars have been enjoying since start and since they can just go stamina and become competetive again we Templars are feeling quite lonely here at the bottom.

So yeah... the designers behind this nonsense seem to simply be really bad at game design.

RSram

bad design

I don't know why ZOS just didn't use look up tables for the attributes of ALL items and abilities in the game. Look up tables are extremely quick to look up in real time and the data is compartmentalized in that changing one item doesn't effect another. I'm referring to a simple linear table, not one that needs a bloated database engine.

I think that the developers didn't spend enough time developing a game mechanics systems that could easily be maintained, and modified. I think the current game system is too complex with too many special case abilities and skills.

I believe that the majority of the 5 years were spent on the visual and audio aspects of the game; of which I give them an A+, but game mechanic should have been the first priority.

Kaliki

bad design

First I didnt know what to vote for... but then I thought about the "anticipate healing" thing concerning our emergency instant cast heal.
Sluggish templar skills seems to be part of their class design principles.

newtinmpls

tengri wrote: »

This, actually.
Personally I've come to believe that no one who designed/worked on the code during pre/early launch is still around. Not counting the promotion/marketing suits of course... I mean the actual ppl who did the low level grunt work.
And now no one really knows what's going on under the hood

Well this would be consistant with reports of intermittant abrupt massive layoffs of programmers.

But it seems like (in theory) some other good programmer (given time and access to the program/computer) should be able to figure it out - so in theory I would think that only explains a short-term problem.

bosmern_ESO

they're saying it's intended because they don't know how to change it

They said a while ago that there is supposed to be no GCD, in one of the recent updates they reduced it slightly, what would the point be of not getting rid of it completely?

So it leads to 2 options:
-ZoS doesn't know how to fix the GCD on charge and will one day in the distant future, finally fix it
-ZoS wants it to have the GCD and may slightly reduce it more until they are happy with it and you'll never hear about changing the GCD on it ever again.

Joy_Division

other, please explain

ZoS knows how to fix it because they did reduced the GCD from 1.5.

That they are leaving it there means it is a conscious choice.

From the poll options "bad design" is probably closest, but I think it is more accurate to say ZoS has no clue how their game actual plays - especially PvP - so it more a design by ignorance than just a bad idea.

Lynnessa

tengri wrote: »

This, actually.
Personally I've come to believe that no one who designed/worked on the code during pre/early launch is still around. Not counting the promotion/marketing suits of course... I mean the actual ppl who did the low level grunt work.
And now no one really knows what's going on under the hood and they are too afraid to touch stuff they dont fully understand...

...

*** like that happens if someone is playing with code they do not fully understand...

On August 29, 2015, ESO became self aware...

david.haypreub18_ESO

anti-botting mechanic

tplink3r1 wrote: »

danovic wrote: »

Because it useing the shield charge subroutine but has a pause in place to compensate for the lack of the shield charge animation shield slam. It needs its own subroutine.

Wrong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Kb3lNjEnAI
As you can see in the video, i can use Jabs much faster after invasion, there is a 600 milliseconds delay on the templar charge.

Great video. If there's any image that sums up the Templar problems in 7 seconds, that is it.

GaldorP

other, please explain

This is all pure speculation but here's my explanation:

The global cooldown was introduced as a temporary fix to prevent a stunlock bug from happening (both in PvE and PvP) at a time when this was still a problem.

Now that this cooldown is not needed anymore (since the cc effects involved grant cc immunity when they end and only the final hit of Puncturing Strikes and its morphs has a knockback effect) it would be very complex and require a lot of work to remove that mechanic again and the team that would have to do this has other tasks which are considered a higher priority (and require less time). It's possible that they tried to remove it in a quick fix but then realized how complex the task would be and how long it would take and the fix possibly created other, new problems so they decided to keep the global cooldown in effect for now and possibly remove it properly (which will very likely take a lot of time) at a later date.

Again, this is all pure speculation