Spell Pen VS Armor Pen

kaithuzar

Why is it that I can stack up to approx. 16-17k spell penetration if I'm a magic user, but I can stack 35-40k armor penetration being a stam user.
This gives stam users a major unfair advantage when using nirnhoned. My magic damage as a nightblade should be hitting much harder than what it is hitting imo; thoughts?
Personally I feel a magic nb can only win against a stam nb if the magic one is rocking heavy armor such as I do for my sets - storm knight + elf bane for approx 17-18k armor
The huge amount of armor pen comes from running duel wield weapons both gold with sharpened trait; the spell pen comes from the same however in order to maximize spell pen to that level I used apprentice mundus & 5-7 light armor; pathetic penetration in comparison to stam/weapon dmg builds

idk

I'm not in game so this is off the top of my little brain (only a few brain cells working ATM)

I'm not certain your math is completely correct.

1. Weapon traits are similar though I've heard nirnhone offers better spell pen than sharpened in certain situations. Single hand weapons get 1/2 the trait value making two of them equal to one two hand weapon. No extra benefit there.
2. Light armor offers spell pen while medium armor doesn't offer armor pen. Benefit spell pen.
3. Destruction staff offers spell pen flat out. None of the stam weapon lines have this. DW and 2H ignore a % of armor of they use mace/hammer only and it ignores a % of the targets armor. Not very beneficial against light armor. Bow builds do not get this at all.

Basically, light armor spell builds can stack spell pen more reliably than stam builds and especially more than ranged stam build. Also, a big chunk of the armor pen that mele can gain is based on a percentage of targets armor so only situationally high. Also, I think the CP for armor pen is still broken.

Also, a magika NB has high survivability. I can survive for days having healing ward and fear on my off bar. Again, I'm not in game and not crunching the numbers but I don't think your numbers are correct or, at best, situationally correct and if your wearing light armor it not the situation. It may be just figuring out how to manage fighting mele. Some ranged players find dealing with a mele more challenging. Not suggesting player quality.

BuggeX

kaithuzar wrote: »

Why is it that I can stack up to approx. 16-17k spell penetration if I'm a magic user, but I can stack 35-40k armor penetration being a stam user.
This gives stam users a major unfair advantage when using nirnhoned. My magic damage as a nightblade should be hitting much harder than what it is hitting imo; thoughts?
Personally I feel a magic nb can only win against a stam nb if the magic one is rocking heavy armor such as I do for my sets - storm knight + elf bane for approx 17-18k armor
The huge amount of armor pen comes from running duel wield weapons both gold with sharpened trait; the spell pen comes from the same however in order to maximize spell pen to that level I used apprentice mundus & 5-7 light armor; pathetic penetration in comparison to stam/weapon dmg builds

there are 2 buffs or debuff types.

Major and minior.

thy dont stack over it.

ex.
you get debuffed or buffed with Major Penetration/Increas Armor/reduce armor 5120
you get debuffed or buffed with miniorPenetration/Increas Armor/reduce armor 910

so in all chases you get max ~6000

exept dk, moph from magmashell give you 100% armor pen

Valymer

BuggeX wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

Why is it that I can stack up to approx. 16-17k spell penetration if I'm a magic user, but I can stack 35-40k armor penetration being a stam user.
This gives stam users a major unfair advantage when using nirnhoned. My magic damage as a nightblade should be hitting much harder than what it is hitting imo; thoughts?
Personally I feel a magic nb can only win against a stam nb if the magic one is rocking heavy armor such as I do for my sets - storm knight + elf bane for approx 17-18k armor
The huge amount of armor pen comes from running duel wield weapons both gold with sharpened trait; the spell pen comes from the same however in order to maximize spell pen to that level I used apprentice mundus & 5-7 light armor; pathetic penetration in comparison to stam/weapon dmg builds

there are 2 buffs or debuff types.

Major and minior.

thy dont stack over it.

ex.
you get debuffed or buffed with Major Penetration/Increas Armor/reduce armor 5120
you get debuffed or buffed with miniorPenetration/Increas Armor/reduce armor 910

so in all chases you get max ~6000

exept dk, moph from magmashell give you 100% armor pen

Are you saying that Major and Minor buffs don't stack with each other? Because I thought they all did.

Edit: looking at your example numbers I think you just meant Major doesn't stack with another Major of the same type

idk

Those buffs stack but not relevant to the discussion as a debuff in the target benefits everyone. Also, the buffs I see/use for armor pen also benefit spell pen.

lolo_01b16_ESO

@kaithuzar How do you get 35k armour penetration? I never managed to get my penetration anywhere near this value.

kaithuzar

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

I'm not in game so this is off the top of my little brain (only a few brain cells working ATM)

I'm not certain your math is completely correct.

1. Weapon traits are similar though I've heard nirnhone offers better spell pen than sharpened in certain situations. Single hand weapons get 1/2 the trait value making two of them equal to one two hand weapon. No extra benefit there.
2. Light armor offers spell pen while medium armor doesn't offer armor pen. Benefit spell pen.
3. Destruction staff offers spell pen flat out. None of the stam weapon lines have this. DW and 2H ignore a % of armor of they use mace/hammer only and it ignores a % of the targets armor. Not very beneficial against light armor. Bow builds do not get this at all.

Basically, light armor spell builds can stack spell pen more reliably than stam builds and especially more than ranged stam build. Also, a big chunk of the armor pen that mele can gain is based on a percentage of targets armor so only situationally high. Also, I think the CP for armor pen is still broken.

Also, a magika NB has high survivability. I can survive for days having healing ward and fear on my off bar. Again, I'm not in game and not crunching the numbers but I don't think your numbers are correct or, at best, situationally correct and if your wearing light armor it not the situation. It may be just figuring out how to manage fighting mele. Some ranged players find dealing with a mele more challenging. Not suggesting player quality.

You can "think" all you want, get in game & crunch the numbers; until you do, you can't say I'm wrong.
Also, I'm not talking about buff/debuff or major/minor, I'm talking about the flat numbers you get based on building toward that penetration type. I have 2 gold sharpened swords & I have a 35k armor penetration rating & 16k spell penetration rating per harvens extended stats addon.

Suru

kaithuzar wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

I'm not in game so this is off the top of my little brain (only a few brain cells working ATM)

I'm not certain your math is completely correct.

1. Weapon traits are similar though I've heard nirnhone offers better spell pen than sharpened in certain situations. Single hand weapons get 1/2 the trait value making two of them equal to one two hand weapon. No extra benefit there.
2. Light armor offers spell pen while medium armor doesn't offer armor pen. Benefit spell pen.
3. Destruction staff offers spell pen flat out. None of the stam weapon lines have this. DW and 2H ignore a % of armor of they use mace/hammer only and it ignores a % of the targets armor. Not very beneficial against light armor. Bow builds do not get this at all.

Basically, light armor spell builds can stack spell pen more reliably than stam builds and especially more than ranged stam build. Also, a big chunk of the armor pen that mele can gain is based on a percentage of targets armor so only situationally high. Also, I think the CP for armor pen is still broken.

Also, a magika NB has high survivability. I can survive for days having healing ward and fear on my off bar. Again, I'm not in game and not crunching the numbers but I don't think your numbers are correct or, at best, situationally correct and if your wearing light armor it not the situation. It may be just figuring out how to manage fighting mele. Some ranged players find dealing with a mele more challenging. Not suggesting player quality.

You can "think" all you want, get in game & crunch the numbers; until you do, you can't say I'm wrong.
Also, I'm not talking about buff/debuff or major/minor, I'm talking about the flat numbers you get based on building toward that penetration type. I have 2 gold sharpened swords & I have a 35k armor penetration rating & 16k spell penetration rating per harvens extended stats addon.

Where the hell do you even get 35k armor pen. You must be misreading somthing. Medium armor does not give any spell passives. Neither do any of the skills except DW and 2h. At most 20% sarmor pen as a percentage, if it really is the case, theres some reallly weird bug present for you.

Gilliamtherogue

"You can "think" all you want, get in game & crunch the numbers; until you do, you can't say I'm wrong.
Also, I'm not talking about buff/debuff or major/minor, I'm talking about the flat numbers you get based on building toward that penetration type. I have 2 gold sharpened swords & I have a 35k armor penetration rating & 16k spell penetration rating per harvens extended stats addon."


There's your problem, you're using Harven's extended stats, which is out of date and doesn't even know where to begin to properly calculate actual penetration ratings. You are greatly misguided if you think you can get more armor penetration than spell penetration, as it is vice versa. Armor pen only exists on a few passives (Maces from weapons, Sharpened for traits , and Piercing from champion points) as well as a select few set bonuses from hard to obtain gear.

Spell penetration on the other hand is much more readily available and easier to stack (Destruction staves for weapons, light armor Concentration passive, Sharpened and Nirnhoned traits, Spell Erosion from CP, and a few other I don't readily recall) on top of more from set bonuses which out scale their armor pen counter parts.

kaithuzar

Ok, lets assume everyone is correct about harvens....
DOES IT EVEN MATTER, with nirnhoned out? Can you get enough spell penetration to make your spells hit for much when a person is rocking almost hard capp'ed spell resist?
Thanks

nilldax

As for now its impossible to earn armor penetration over combination of Mace(s) with Sharpened trait. In theory this should be like ~35% (not 35k) of armor pen however its hard to tell, that isnt stacking with eachother. "Nrin" weapon with robes and passives gives around (if stacked) 50% of magic penetration.
So... at this moment mages with stacked magic amror pen are kinda "OP" - even spell resist stacked to insane value of 40k-50k its still only 50% of mitigation and nothing more (unless target is perma-blocking)...
But... imagine that Nirnhoned is turned off for couple of minutes - tell me, do you know any counter for massive magic damage from NB or Sorc? - counter usable by stamina user.
If you want to slaughter guy with hard capped spell resist - find&use gear for increased spell damage. There are also rumors about 3k of spell damage, 35k of magicka and armor values of ~15k.

BuggeX

Valymer wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

Why is it that I can stack up to approx. 16-17k spell penetration if I'm a magic user, but I can stack 35-40k armor penetration being a stam user.
This gives stam users a major unfair advantage when using nirnhoned. My magic damage as a nightblade should be hitting much harder than what it is hitting imo; thoughts?
Personally I feel a magic nb can only win against a stam nb if the magic one is rocking heavy armor such as I do for my sets - storm knight + elf bane for approx 17-18k armor
The huge amount of armor pen comes from running duel wield weapons both gold with sharpened trait; the spell pen comes from the same however in order to maximize spell pen to that level I used apprentice mundus & 5-7 light armor; pathetic penetration in comparison to stam/weapon dmg builds

there are 2 buffs or debuff types.

Major and minior.

thy dont stack over it.

ex.
you get debuffed or buffed with Major Penetration/Increas Armor/reduce armor 5120
you get debuffed or buffed with miniorPenetration/Increas Armor/reduce armor 910

so in all chases you get max ~6000

exept dk, moph from magmashell give you 100% armor pen

Are you saying that Major and Minor buffs don't stack with each other? Because I thought they all did.

Edit: looking at your example numbers I think you just meant Major doesn't stack with another Major of the same type

Major and minor stack, but you cant use 2 Major

kaithuzar wrote: »

Ok, lets assume everyone is correct about harvens....
DOES IT EVEN MATTER, with nirnhoned out? Can you get enough spell penetration to make your spells hit for much when a person is rocking almost hard capp'ed spell resist?
Thanks

no matter how much spellress or amror you have, the max reduction is 50%, this will be ~40k armor or res (not sure about the 40k)

the same goes for Penetration, max is 50%. so in best case you are able to deal 150% dmg to a target, or 100% if he hardcaped res.

Faulgor

BuggeX wrote: »

Valymer wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

Why is it that I can stack up to approx. 16-17k spell penetration if I'm a magic user, but I can stack 35-40k armor penetration being a stam user.
This gives stam users a major unfair advantage when using nirnhoned. My magic damage as a nightblade should be hitting much harder than what it is hitting imo; thoughts?
Personally I feel a magic nb can only win against a stam nb if the magic one is rocking heavy armor such as I do for my sets - storm knight + elf bane for approx 17-18k armor
The huge amount of armor pen comes from running duel wield weapons both gold with sharpened trait; the spell pen comes from the same however in order to maximize spell pen to that level I used apprentice mundus & 5-7 light armor; pathetic penetration in comparison to stam/weapon dmg builds

there are 2 buffs or debuff types.

Major and minior.

thy dont stack over it.

ex.
you get debuffed or buffed with Major Penetration/Increas Armor/reduce armor 5120
you get debuffed or buffed with miniorPenetration/Increas Armor/reduce armor 910

so in all chases you get max ~6000

exept dk, moph from magmashell give you 100% armor pen

Are you saying that Major and Minor buffs don't stack with each other? Because I thought they all did.

Edit: looking at your example numbers I think you just meant Major doesn't stack with another Major of the same type

Major and minor stack, but you cant use 2 Major

kaithuzar wrote: »

Ok, lets assume everyone is correct about harvens....
DOES IT EVEN MATTER, with nirnhoned out? Can you get enough spell penetration to make your spells hit for much when a person is rocking almost hard capp'ed spell resist?
Thanks

no matter how much spellress or amror you have, the max reduction is 50%, this will be ~40k armor or res (not sure about the 40k)

the same goes for Penetration, max is 50%. so in best case you are able to deal 150% dmg to a target, or 100% if he hardcaped res.

Apparently that's not how it works, but I haven't tested it myself. Penetration against a 0 spell resistance / armor rating target doesn't increase your damage one bit afaik, so you won't do more than 100% damage.

BuggeX

Faulgor wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

Valymer wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

Why is it that I can stack up to approx. 16-17k spell penetration if I'm a magic user, but I can stack 35-40k armor penetration being a stam user.
This gives stam users a major unfair advantage when using nirnhoned. My magic damage as a nightblade should be hitting much harder than what it is hitting imo; thoughts?
Personally I feel a magic nb can only win against a stam nb if the magic one is rocking heavy armor such as I do for my sets - storm knight + elf bane for approx 17-18k armor
The huge amount of armor pen comes from running duel wield weapons both gold with sharpened trait; the spell pen comes from the same however in order to maximize spell pen to that level I used apprentice mundus & 5-7 light armor; pathetic penetration in comparison to stam/weapon dmg builds

there are 2 buffs or debuff types.

Major and minior.

thy dont stack over it.

ex.
you get debuffed or buffed with Major Penetration/Increas Armor/reduce armor 5120
you get debuffed or buffed with miniorPenetration/Increas Armor/reduce armor 910

so in all chases you get max ~6000

exept dk, moph from magmashell give you 100% armor pen

Are you saying that Major and Minor buffs don't stack with each other? Because I thought they all did.

Edit: looking at your example numbers I think you just meant Major doesn't stack with another Major of the same type

Major and minor stack, but you cant use 2 Major

kaithuzar wrote: »

Ok, lets assume everyone is correct about harvens....
DOES IT EVEN MATTER, with nirnhoned out? Can you get enough spell penetration to make your spells hit for much when a person is rocking almost hard capp'ed spell resist?
Thanks

no matter how much spellress or amror you have, the max reduction is 50%, this will be ~40k armor or res (not sure about the 40k)

the same goes for Penetration, max is 50%. so in best case you are able to deal 150% dmg to a target, or 100% if he hardcaped res.

Apparently that's not how it works, but I haven't tested it myself. Penetration against a 0 spell resistance / armor rating target doesn't increase your damage one bit afaik, so you won't do more than 100% damage.

are there even 0 armor Targets?

teladoy

I'm also confuse how stats work in eso and also I don't trust in nothing because the game is bug wherever you watch.

For example I don't know if you realize that weapon power also increments spell power and this is intended.

Also in my opinion who invest in magic penetration lose in spell power, that would mean more damage to tanks that have toons of armor and magic resist, but less to assassin's that don't have too much resistances.

Valymer

Faulgor wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

Valymer wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

Why is it that I can stack up to approx. 16-17k spell penetration if I'm a magic user, but I can stack 35-40k armor penetration being a stam user.
This gives stam users a major unfair advantage when using nirnhoned. My magic damage as a nightblade should be hitting much harder than what it is hitting imo; thoughts?
Personally I feel a magic nb can only win against a stam nb if the magic one is rocking heavy armor such as I do for my sets - storm knight + elf bane for approx 17-18k armor
The huge amount of armor pen comes from running duel wield weapons both gold with sharpened trait; the spell pen comes from the same however in order to maximize spell pen to that level I used apprentice mundus & 5-7 light armor; pathetic penetration in comparison to stam/weapon dmg builds

there are 2 buffs or debuff types.

Major and minior.

thy dont stack over it.

ex.
you get debuffed or buffed with Major Penetration/Increas Armor/reduce armor 5120
you get debuffed or buffed with miniorPenetration/Increas Armor/reduce armor 910

so in all chases you get max ~6000

exept dk, moph from magmashell give you 100% armor pen

Are you saying that Major and Minor buffs don't stack with each other? Because I thought they all did.

Edit: looking at your example numbers I think you just meant Major doesn't stack with another Major of the same type

Major and minor stack, but you cant use 2 Major

kaithuzar wrote: »

Ok, lets assume everyone is correct about harvens....
DOES IT EVEN MATTER, with nirnhoned out? Can you get enough spell penetration to make your spells hit for much when a person is rocking almost hard capp'ed spell resist?
Thanks

no matter how much spellress or amror you have, the max reduction is 50%, this will be ~40k armor or res (not sure about the 40k)

the same goes for Penetration, max is 50%. so in best case you are able to deal 150% dmg to a target, or 100% if he hardcaped res.

Apparently that's not how it works, but I haven't tested it myself. Penetration against a 0 spell resistance / armor rating target doesn't increase your damage one bit afaik, so you won't do more than 100% damage.

This is one of the reasons why I dropped Apprentice mundus for Mage. I'm not doing trials lately and I have a sneaking suspicion that my gold nirnhorned staff + other bonuses are already bringing the resists of most mobs that I fight to zero (or close enough to it).

I never tested it, but I have read that trial bosses have relatively high physical and spell resistances. But I'm not so sure about others (vet dungeon or DSA bosses, for instance), even though they were supposedly buffed in 1.6.

Frawr

I think that penetrative does a % of enemy resistance value, not a flat reduction. So, if they have 40k resistance (assume 50%) and you have 30% penetration en you will ignore 12k of their resistance (15%).

They then still have 38k (35%)

kaithuzar

I didn't think I would say it, but I'm going to say it. NERF NIRNHONED!

It's doesn't take skill to rock 7 heavy nirn items & negate all magic damage that might have thought about incoming to you.
At least 5 heavy nirn combined with sword & board = damn near unkillable, this is ridiculous!
On NPC's my prox det can hit for 28k damage, on players it's hitting for around 6-8k w/crit from behind stealth.
Even sorc's who finally got sp dmg buff based on sorc abilities on their bar are now stam based, apparently fengrush started a trend >.>
I've seen sorc's be able to get sp dmg up to 2.9k, as a nb I've got 2.6k & for about the past week I can't seem to kill anyone who is v14! Obviously I wreck all other vet's b/c nobody is going to spend a ton of cash making gold nirnhoned for a level that isn't max.

It's just too easy to stack weapon dmg, rock nirn & call it a day. I had to listen to stam blades complain for almost a year about them sucking now the tables have turned & I feel entitled to share my complaints.

Being able to reduce magic dmg with gold nirn gear + have to deal with dmg shields, + sword & board; zos you're about to lose more PAYING subscribers over this.