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Why is no one pointing out that playing as an Imperial is P2W?
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Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭Redguard is vastly superior to Imperial for Stamina builds as they can surpass the Stamina Recovery of an Imperial with ease, and Stamina Recovery is much more important than max Stamina for PvP, PvE, and DPS. You can have 30k Stamina and 600 Recovery, what're you going to do when you run out of Stamina? Die.
There's no way around it, you need sustain to survive in this game, with no Recovery, you will eventually die. Period.
In what world does ANY stamina build have 600 recovery though?
In reality, if a Redguard has 3k stam recovery, an Imp would have 2.7k.
Raw damage builds have no Recovery whatsoever be it Stamina or Magicka. If all you build for is one-shotting people with Wrecking Blow then you probably have 800-1000 stam recovery which is nothing, well it's not nothing, but it ain't worth a damn in heated battles.
Why... why would you do this, though? o.O
Why would an Imperial suddenly be pigeon-holed into a raw damage build any more than a Redguard because he has 9% less regen and 12% more health + health sustain through Red Diamond?
I'm not really following here...
It feels like you're comparing a regen-stacked Redguard to a weapon damage-stacked Imp, which is like.. apples and mangoes.
I'm pointing out max stats mean nothing and you need sustain to do anything.
Sustain = recovery.
Am I making sense now?
No, because nobody has EVER said that sustain isn't important. <.<
Everyone knows that you need regen, nobody has ever argued that point. I guess that's why I'm confused as to why you're making this weird analogy.
As I've been pretty outspoken on the subject, I can't help but feel that you think that I said this at some point, but.. I didn't.
Yes, of course, if you pour everything into max stats and nothing into regen, you'll be gimped. That's not even being debated.
...but who does that as a serious stamina build? Why would we even talk about this?
Edited by Varicite on April 22, 2015 4:53PM -
Frawr✭✭✭✭✭Redguard is vastly superior to Imperial for Stamina builds as they can surpass the Stamina Recovery of an Imperial with ease, and Stamina Recovery is much more important than max Stamina for PvP, PvE, and DPS. You can have 30k Stamina and 600 Recovery, what're you going to do when you run out of Stamina? Die.
There's no way around it, you need sustain to survive in this game, with no Recovery, you will eventually die. Period.
In what world does ANY stamina build have 600 recovery though?
In reality, if a Redguard has 3k stam recovery, an Imp would have 2.7k.
Raw damage builds have no Recovery whatsoever be it Stamina or Magicka. If all you build for is one-shotting people with Wrecking Blow then you probably have 800-1000 stam recovery which is nothing, well it's not nothing, but it ain't worth a damn in heated battles.
Why... why would you do this, though? o.O
Why would an Imperial suddenly be pigeon-holed into a raw damage build any more than a Redguard because he has 9% less regen and 12% more health + health sustain through Red Diamond?
I'm not really following here...
It feels like you're comparing a regen-stacked Redguard to a weapon damage-stacked Imp, which is like.. apples and mangoes.
it isnt just 9% less stam recovery. Imperial regens HP on melee attacks (not so good). Redguard regenerates stamina on melee attacks.
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blacklight25Soul ShrivenI read through 7 pages of this stupid thread because i was generally interested in what everyone has to say, and I've come to 2 conclusions.
First, after looking at the people behind both sides; I would never want to group or play at all with any of the people defending the P2W side, they seem like sad unfun people to be around based off their posts alone. But the people who are on the other side seem to just play the game to enjoy themselves and don't get upset every time their max stam is 10% behind their opponents.
Secondly, it seems like everyone forgot what P2W means..... It's PAY TO WIN. Just cause you pick imperial and you spend hours calculating every stat of your character and predicting stats of others, doesn't mean you can "win" the game haha. Sure, you may win an extra fight or two in PvP, you may run through trials and pledges a little better; but it doesn't mean your not gonna get smashed on in Cyrodiil by someone better than you of a different race, and it doesn't mean your more likely to get emperor, and it doesn't mean that your automatically better than anyone at all.
My main point is that you cannon win the game, and the only people who actually care about those miniscule points and percentages are the ones that Need to exploit those in order to do well in the game. Regardless of the flak I'm prolly gonna catch from this post, you're reading that and you know its true! -
uso245✭✭✭More or less the question boils down to Max vs. Sustain. If you are burst damage fine go with max for all you want but as soon as you meet someone that can sustain you will eventually die. Max Stat = Burst and Sustain = Prolonged Fights. I can guarantee if you don't nuke me in 2-3 hits I will not go down easily unless you utilize a zerg.My Facebook Page
My Youtube Channel(DC NA Megaserver) Beta TesterMy TwitterArt of DeathFate Stay Night
Member since February 2014
l
Strategist/Tactician -
MCMancub✭✭✭✭More or less the question boils down to Max vs. Sustain. If you are burst damage fine go with max for all you want but as soon as you meet someone that can sustain you will eventually die. Max Stat = Burst and Sustain = Prolonged Fights. I can guarantee if you don't nuke me in 2-3 hits I will not go down easily unless you utilize a zerg.Stamina Regen is only useful up until the point where you are regenerating more stamina than you can effectively use. It's an indirect cap, but it exists. It's also different for every build.
That being said, having a racial that gives more stamina regen doesn't mean a thing if you can easily reach your indirect cap in other ways (which you can via Champion Points). In this case, having flat stats are better. That's why Imperials are better min/maxers in pve stamina dps.
EDIT: You could make the argument that Redguards don't need to spend as many Champion Points in Stamina Regen, allowing them to reallocate them elsewhere, but there isn't a single Champion System passive I'd rather have over more health.
I'm just gonna start copy/pasting this whenever people skip over posts and don't read. They're just making fools of themselves. -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭Redguard is vastly superior to Imperial for Stamina builds as they can surpass the Stamina Recovery of an Imperial with ease, and Stamina Recovery is much more important than max Stamina for PvP, PvE, and DPS. You can have 30k Stamina and 600 Recovery, what're you going to do when you run out of Stamina? Die.
There's no way around it, you need sustain to survive in this game, with no Recovery, you will eventually die. Period.
In what world does ANY stamina build have 600 recovery though?
In reality, if a Redguard has 3k stam recovery, an Imp would have 2.7k.
Raw damage builds have no Recovery whatsoever be it Stamina or Magicka. If all you build for is one-shotting people with Wrecking Blow then you probably have 800-1000 stam recovery which is nothing, well it's not nothing, but it ain't worth a damn in heated battles.
Why... why would you do this, though? o.O
Why would an Imperial suddenly be pigeon-holed into a raw damage build any more than a Redguard because he has 9% less regen and 12% more health + health sustain through Red Diamond?
I'm not really following here...
It feels like you're comparing a regen-stacked Redguard to a weapon damage-stacked Imp, which is like.. apples and mangoes.
it isnt just 9% less stam recovery. Imperial regens HP on melee attacks (not so good). Redguard regenerates stamina on melee attacks.
Red Diamond is freaking awesome for melee builds in PvP, I'm just gonna say that flat out. But so is Adrenaline Rush, pretty much everywhere.
AR procs ~500 stam every 3 seconds for my Redguard NB, so twice in a 6 second period. Just to be fair, let's round this up to about 350 stam per regen tick (2 seconds). It's actually slightly less than that, but it doesn't really matter.
So let's just use nice round numbers that are attainable by ANY stamina build, and call it 2500 stam regen for the Imperial. A Redguard would have ~3075 in this case. (2500 * 1.09 = 2725. 2725 + 350 = 3075)
Now, the question here is: Can the Imperial NOT sustain w/ 2500 stamina recovery?
The question was NEVER if an Imperial who completely neglects very important stats beat a Redguard who actually builds himself correctly.
The statement was that stamina recovery is EASY to get as ANY race, including Imperials, due to the 1.6 changes. And I have not seen a single person refute that.
Instead, we are in this ridiculous debate about whether some noob Imp who doesn't stack anything but damage is better than an intelligent Redguard who builds for both stam regen and damage. That's not even a question, it's a foregone conclusion.
Fortunately, that's not what anyone has actually said.
Edited by Varicite on April 22, 2015 6:06PM -
eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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Okay that's your preference. I know plenty that would disagree with you. I'm not aware of any cap in regards to regen, nor have I heard of it being an issue for people who run those builds.Stamina Regen is only useful up until the point where you are regenerating more stamina than you can effectively use. It's an indirect cap, but it exists. It's also different for every build.
That being said, having a racial that gives more stamina regen doesn't mean a thing if you can easily reach your indirect cap in other ways (which you can via Champion Points). In this case, having flat stats are better. That's why Imperials are better min/maxers in pve stamina dps.
EDIT: You could make the argument that Redguards don't need to spend as many Champion Points in Stamina Regen, allowing them to reallocate them elsewhere, but there isn't a single Champion System passive I'd rather have over more health.
:trollin: -
MCMancub✭✭✭✭eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
Okay that's your preference. I know plenty that would disagree with you. I'm not aware of any cap in regards to regen, nor have I heard of it being an issue for people who run those builds.Stamina Regen is only useful up until the point where you are regenerating more stamina than you can effectively use. It's an indirect cap, but it exists. It's also different for every build.
That being said, having a racial that gives more stamina regen doesn't mean a thing if you can easily reach your indirect cap in other ways (which you can via Champion Points). In this case, having flat stats are better. That's why Imperials are better min/maxers in pve stamina dps.
EDIT: You could make the argument that Redguards don't need to spend as many Champion Points in Stamina Regen, allowing them to reallocate them elsewhere, but there isn't a single Champion System passive I'd rather have over more health.
It's not preference or an opinion. It's fact. Stacking more stamina regen than you need will result in strictly worse DPS (via opportunity cost of not stacking more stamina).
As I previously said, it's not a direct cap, but an indirect one. Your ability costs do not go up as you gain more stamina or stamina regen. Once you gain enough regen to match the fastest time you can expend stamina, anything extra is a waste.Edited by MCMancub on April 22, 2015 6:09PM -
eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
Okay that's your preference. I know plenty that would disagree with you. I'm not aware of any cap in regards to regen, nor have I heard of it being an issue for people who run those builds.Stamina Regen is only useful up until the point where you are regenerating more stamina than you can effectively use. It's an indirect cap, but it exists. It's also different for every build.
That being said, having a racial that gives more stamina regen doesn't mean a thing if you can easily reach your indirect cap in other ways (which you can via Champion Points). In this case, having flat stats are better. That's why Imperials are better min/maxers in pve stamina dps.
EDIT: You could make the argument that Redguards don't need to spend as many Champion Points in Stamina Regen, allowing them to reallocate them elsewhere, but there isn't a single Champion System passive I'd rather have over more health.
It's not preference or an opinion. It's fact. Stacking more stamina regen than you need will result in strictly worse DPS (via opportunity cost of not stacking more stamina).
As I previously said, it's not a direct cap, but an indirect one. Your ability costs do not go up as you gain more stamina or stamina regen. Once you gain enough regen to match the fastest time you can expend stamina, anything extra is a waste.
The only way that's true is if you regen more stamina per tick than you have stamina which is probably theoretically impossible. So if you have 30k stamina and you regen 35k per tick then yes it's a waste.:trollin: -
MCMancub✭✭✭✭eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
Okay that's your preference. I know plenty that would disagree with you. I'm not aware of any cap in regards to regen, nor have I heard of it being an issue for people who run those builds.Stamina Regen is only useful up until the point where you are regenerating more stamina than you can effectively use. It's an indirect cap, but it exists. It's also different for every build.
That being said, having a racial that gives more stamina regen doesn't mean a thing if you can easily reach your indirect cap in other ways (which you can via Champion Points). In this case, having flat stats are better. That's why Imperials are better min/maxers in pve stamina dps.
EDIT: You could make the argument that Redguards don't need to spend as many Champion Points in Stamina Regen, allowing them to reallocate them elsewhere, but there isn't a single Champion System passive I'd rather have over more health.
It's not preference or an opinion. It's fact. Stacking more stamina regen than you need will result in strictly worse DPS (via opportunity cost of not stacking more stamina).
As I previously said, it's not a direct cap, but an indirect one. Your ability costs do not go up as you gain more stamina or stamina regen. Once you gain enough regen to match the fastest time you can expend stamina, anything extra is a waste.
The only way that's true is if you regen more stamina per tick than you have stamina which is probably theoretically impossible. So if you have 30k stamina and you regen 35k per tick then yes it's a waste.
Only if you can expend 30k stamina in 2 seconds. Which you can't.
Let's take a look at what Stamina Regeneration is: "When in combat, you recover [x] Stamina every two seconds" (according to the wiki). If you can only spend [y] stamina every 2 seconds, having [x] be any more than [y] is a waste.
At that point you should be increasing your max stamina. This allows you to cast more, and it has the side affect of raising your weapon damage on skills. -
akray21✭✭✭✭✭eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
Okay that's your preference. I know plenty that would disagree with you. I'm not aware of any cap in regards to regen, nor have I heard of it being an issue for people who run those builds.Stamina Regen is only useful up until the point where you are regenerating more stamina than you can effectively use. It's an indirect cap, but it exists. It's also different for every build.
That being said, having a racial that gives more stamina regen doesn't mean a thing if you can easily reach your indirect cap in other ways (which you can via Champion Points). In this case, having flat stats are better. That's why Imperials are better min/maxers in pve stamina dps.
EDIT: You could make the argument that Redguards don't need to spend as many Champion Points in Stamina Regen, allowing them to reallocate them elsewhere, but there isn't a single Champion System passive I'd rather have over more health.
It's not preference or an opinion. It's fact. Stacking more stamina regen than you need will result in strictly worse DPS (via opportunity cost of not stacking more stamina).
As I previously said, it's not a direct cap, but an indirect one. Your ability costs do not go up as you gain more stamina or stamina regen. Once you gain enough regen to match the fastest time you can expend stamina, anything extra is a waste.
The only way that's true is if you regen more stamina per tick than you have stamina which is probably theoretically impossible. So if you have 30k stamina and you regen 35k per tick then yes it's a waste.
What you need to look at is something that shows damage per second compared to total resource loss per second. Just by having an extremely low resource loss per second, or even no loss per second, does not guarantee that you will come out on top in a 1v1, you need enough damage higher enough to go with resource management. If you have very low max stats, that will equal low damage and you won't be able to keep up damage wise in a fight, it won't matter that you have enough resources to cast you low damage abilities. -
eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
That's the entire point of the argument. Redguards have both max stamina increase and stamina regen passives. The Imperials only have the max stamina. Basically Redguards can have both, yet people are making the claim that somehow the max health is going to factor into damage or sustain. How exactly does this not make sense to you?eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
Okay that's your preference. I know plenty that would disagree with you. I'm not aware of any cap in regards to regen, nor have I heard of it being an issue for people who run those builds.Stamina Regen is only useful up until the point where you are regenerating more stamina than you can effectively use. It's an indirect cap, but it exists. It's also different for every build.
That being said, having a racial that gives more stamina regen doesn't mean a thing if you can easily reach your indirect cap in other ways (which you can via Champion Points). In this case, having flat stats are better. That's why Imperials are better min/maxers in pve stamina dps.
EDIT: You could make the argument that Redguards don't need to spend as many Champion Points in Stamina Regen, allowing them to reallocate them elsewhere, but there isn't a single Champion System passive I'd rather have over more health.
It's not preference or an opinion. It's fact. Stacking more stamina regen than you need will result in strictly worse DPS (via opportunity cost of not stacking more stamina).
As I previously said, it's not a direct cap, but an indirect one. Your ability costs do not go up as you gain more stamina or stamina regen. Once you gain enough regen to match the fastest time you can expend stamina, anything extra is a waste.
The only way that's true is if you regen more stamina per tick than you have stamina which is probably theoretically impossible. So if you have 30k stamina and you regen 35k per tick then yes it's a waste.
What you need to look at is something that shows damage per second compared to total resource loss per second. Just by having an extremely low resource loss per second, or even no loss per second, does not guarantee that you will come out on top in a 1v1, you need enough damage higher enough to go with resource management. If you have very low max stats, that will equal low damage and you won't be able to keep up damage wise in a fight, it won't matter that you have enough resources to cast you low damage abilities.:trollin: -
MCMancub✭✭✭✭eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
That's the entire point of the argument. Redguards have both max stamina increase and stamina regen passives. The Imperials only have the max stamina. Basically Redguards can have both, yet people are making the claim that somehow the max health is going to factor into damage or sustain. How exactly does this not make sense to you?eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
Okay that's your preference. I know plenty that would disagree with you. I'm not aware of any cap in regards to regen, nor have I heard of it being an issue for people who run those builds.Stamina Regen is only useful up until the point where you are regenerating more stamina than you can effectively use. It's an indirect cap, but it exists. It's also different for every build.
That being said, having a racial that gives more stamina regen doesn't mean a thing if you can easily reach your indirect cap in other ways (which you can via Champion Points). In this case, having flat stats are better. That's why Imperials are better min/maxers in pve stamina dps.
EDIT: You could make the argument that Redguards don't need to spend as many Champion Points in Stamina Regen, allowing them to reallocate them elsewhere, but there isn't a single Champion System passive I'd rather have over more health.
It's not preference or an opinion. It's fact. Stacking more stamina regen than you need will result in strictly worse DPS (via opportunity cost of not stacking more stamina).
As I previously said, it's not a direct cap, but an indirect one. Your ability costs do not go up as you gain more stamina or stamina regen. Once you gain enough regen to match the fastest time you can expend stamina, anything extra is a waste.
The only way that's true is if you regen more stamina per tick than you have stamina which is probably theoretically impossible. So if you have 30k stamina and you regen 35k per tick then yes it's a waste.
What you need to look at is something that shows damage per second compared to total resource loss per second. Just by having an extremely low resource loss per second, or even no loss per second, does not guarantee that you will come out on top in a 1v1, you need enough damage higher enough to go with resource management. If you have very low max stats, that will equal low damage and you won't be able to keep up damage wise in a fight, it won't matter that you have enough resources to cast you low damage abilities.
The argument is that if you need X stamina regen, it's true that Redguards will reach X first, but Imperials will eventually also reach X. Once they do, then they have a strict advantage over Redguards (in the form of more health). I mentioned earlier that this gives Redguards 23 extra Champion Points, but having the extra health is more valuable, both in PvP and PvE.Edited by MCMancub on April 22, 2015 6:32PM -
akray21✭✭✭✭✭eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
That's the entire point of the argument. Redguards have both max stamina increase and stamina regen passives. The Imperials only have the max stamina. Basically Redguards can have both, yet people are making the claim that somehow the max health is going to factor into damage or sustain. How exactly does this not make sense to you?eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
Okay that's your preference. I know plenty that would disagree with you. I'm not aware of any cap in regards to regen, nor have I heard of it being an issue for people who run those builds.Stamina Regen is only useful up until the point where you are regenerating more stamina than you can effectively use. It's an indirect cap, but it exists. It's also different for every build.
That being said, having a racial that gives more stamina regen doesn't mean a thing if you can easily reach your indirect cap in other ways (which you can via Champion Points). In this case, having flat stats are better. That's why Imperials are better min/maxers in pve stamina dps.
EDIT: You could make the argument that Redguards don't need to spend as many Champion Points in Stamina Regen, allowing them to reallocate them elsewhere, but there isn't a single Champion System passive I'd rather have over more health.
It's not preference or an opinion. It's fact. Stacking more stamina regen than you need will result in strictly worse DPS (via opportunity cost of not stacking more stamina).
As I previously said, it's not a direct cap, but an indirect one. Your ability costs do not go up as you gain more stamina or stamina regen. Once you gain enough regen to match the fastest time you can expend stamina, anything extra is a waste.
The only way that's true is if you regen more stamina per tick than you have stamina which is probably theoretically impossible. So if you have 30k stamina and you regen 35k per tick then yes it's a waste.
What you need to look at is something that shows damage per second compared to total resource loss per second. Just by having an extremely low resource loss per second, or even no loss per second, does not guarantee that you will come out on top in a 1v1, you need enough damage higher enough to go with resource management. If you have very low max stats, that will equal low damage and you won't be able to keep up damage wise in a fight, it won't matter that you have enough resources to cast you low damage abilities.
The argument is that if you need X stamina regen, it's true that Redguards will reach X first, but Imperials will eventually also reach X. Once they do, then they have a strict advantage over Redguards (in the form of more health). I mentioned earlier that this gives Redguards 23 extra Champion Points, but having the extra health is more valuable, both in PvP and PvE.
Exactly. Boosting regen sky high is not needed, you only need a certain amount before it becomes redundant. On the other hand you can boost max stat as high as possible and it never becomes redundant...Edited by akray21 on April 22, 2015 6:49PM -
AhPook_Is_Here✭✭✭✭✭
✭AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »Imperial is largely regarded as the superior race in ESO given the passive abilities. What is the only way to be able to play as an Imperial?... That is right, you had to purchase the Imperial Edition of the game which had a higher price tag. This is the definition of P2W (paying money to get a statistical advantage)... ZOS either needs to balance all passives, or give everyone the option at any time to change their race to imperial for free.
Some kids go to Harvard. Some kids don't go to Harvard. Pay to win?
Is there an entrance exam to buy the Imperial Edition now? o.O
The point is that life often offers more opportunities for people who pay to win. Ask a library building family the the Bush's how their straight C students pass those supposed entrance exams with multi-million dollar donations.“Whatever.”
-Unknown American -
Vaerth✭✭✭✭Imperial is largely regarded as the superior race in ESO given the passive abilities. What is the only way to be able to play as an Imperial?... That is right, you had to purchase the Imperial Edition of the game which had a higher price tag. This is the definition of P2W (paying money to get a statistical advantage)... ZOS either needs to balance all passives, or give everyone the option at any time to change their race to imperial for free.
Why would i want to? I play a Magicka build, and do not like Imperial's over Dunmer and BretonPact Bloodwraith -
Bouvin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Chuggernaut wrote: »Just create a new imperial character and stop begging for a race change. Its so fast to grind a dude to 50 its silly. The v14 grind is a non-issue since vr levels are going away "Soon™"
LOLOLOL...
If VR ranks were going away they'd be gone before Console launch.
VR Ranks are here to stay, people need to get used to that fact. -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭Chuggernaut wrote: »Just create a new imperial character and stop begging for a race change. Its so fast to grind a dude to 50 its silly. The v14 grind is a non-issue since vr levels are going away "Soon™"
LOLOLOL...
If VR ranks were going away they'd be gone before Console launch.
VR Ranks are here to stay, people need to get used to that fact.
Hmm, they just said like a week ago that they are still actively working on removing them. -
MCMancub✭✭✭✭Chuggernaut wrote: »Just create a new imperial character and stop begging for a race change. Its so fast to grind a dude to 50 its silly. The v14 grind is a non-issue since vr levels are going away "Soon™"
LOLOLOL...
If VR ranks were going away they'd be gone before Console launch.
VR Ranks are here to stay, people need to get used to that fact.
See, it's when people post this sort of thing that my hope for this community vanishes. They said from the start the whole point of the Champion System was to get rid of the Veteran Ranks, but that it would take 3 phases to get rid of them. Phase 1 was the rework of the Veteran System, Phase 2 was the Champion System, and Phase 3 is the full removal of the Veteran System. This is not uncommon knowledge. Educate yourself before spouting off false facts on the forums. -
nerevarine1138 wrote: »Doc! I have to tell you about the future!
Oh, sorry. I thought that we'd time traveled, because this issue has been rehashed to the point of me wanting to throw my computer through the wall.
1.21 JIGGAWATTS!!!!
