[Discusion] Animation Canceling; a good thing & a bad thing

HeroOfNone

Let's talk about animation canceling and how it's changed the game, for better or worse.

Disclaimer: I am a high level vr14 Dragonknight DK that has played since launch and whose animation canceling are probably between poor to average. This post comes from various discussions I've had with others on this topic and trying to observe it objectively. Keep in mind though there always seems to be a bias when discussing this.


Animation Canceling: what is it?
For folks new to the game, animations. Canceling is using another an ability to cancel another. A common one is canceling out a heavy attack on a destruction staff using crushing shock, so an animation that might have taken 2 seconds can finish in a tenth of a second. It’s a fluid movement, as most describe, that requires a short amount of cast time to get the next follow up to occur. For example a heavy attack with a weapon may take only a few milliseconds of cast time, while a wreaking blow or snipe shot could take .25 seconds. To cancel you always need resources of some kind, so you can dodge roll, block, or cast another ability to cancel the current abilities out.

What does ZOS say about this?
ZOS has called this an unexpected feature that they are embracing on multiple occasions (I'll cite examples if necessary) but they have said this is not an exploit nor is it something they want to get rid of. So at this point it's sanctioned and encouraged, but it was not part of their original plan.

What are the positives?
Animation canceling provides a bit of twitch reaction and a unique feel to the game. Where a lot of MMOs are ruled by cool downs and abilities, ESO is ruled by blocking, dodging, attacks, abilities, and resources to do things. There are few games out there like it. Fewer still in the MMO category.

You can do anything if you have the resources. There are few times you’ll be stuck not being able to do something when a big blow occurs and you need to block, dodge, or bash an enemy. This makes all attitudes important in more than one way.

It adds in skill and timing with players for each weapon type. 1 hander swing faster than 2 hander and fire staves fire differently than lighting staffs. These differences build up skill and attack weaves that match your style of play.

What's the bad news then?
Some of this is fact, some of it is speculation and hypothesis.

Because of animation canceling, dungeons and trials are more difficult to those that don't do animation canceling. At this point, developers have committed so much to animation canceling that without it you will barely be able to complete most challenges in the game. The DPS you need to put out is pumped up on a lot of burn phases because of the animation cancelers before you, and if you're going to be a "worthwhile DPS" you have to do it.

It's not well explained in game in any tutorial. Typically new folks are not clued into animation canceling unless friends clue them in, they watch twitch streams, or they look up youtube tutorials. It is something that's a bit unique that would be hard to explain in game, but when it's required of you to complete certain content it should be given more mention.

It leads a lot of folks to macroing. While animation canceling is allowed, using a 3rd party application to do a chain or even just 2 abilities, one after another with a wait time; is not allowed. Still, you talk privately with a lot of top DPS folks in PVP and PVE they will admit they use Macros to keep up with the other guys, since one guy uses it and gets 20k damage with a macro, now THEY have to macro to keep up. This leads to some skewed stats on trial boards and to some "too late it's over" results in PVP fights. I'd like to hear more from folks that have considered or have used macros to keep up with this DPS arms race, but I can understand if you don’t want to give out any self-incriminating evidence.

Certain armor sets and traits have become over used while others are useless in comparison. Weighted is one example where a good idea for adding weapon speed was reduced to useless because canceling the attacks resulted in just as fast damage, raising the usefulness of others. In addition to this, items with high proc chances with dot durations verses low proc rates with high immediate damage.

Non-animation cancelers are at a severe disadvantage overall in PVE & PVP. While animation canceling adds a level of skill, it’s a skill that you either have to learn or you will be beaten out for DPS in PVE or you will be killed repeatedly in PVP. It’s the scissors in a rock-paper-scissors game that has no rock to counter it. Blocking it will drain your stamina, dodge rolling may still leave you vulnerable if they are quick enough, and any type of break free animation can take way too long to release you before someone can have 2-3 more hits.

Finally, this is purely speculation, but I believe this may also be a contributing factor to lag in Cyrodiil. When the game was launch the developers sized AvAvA for hundreds of people and were working with the assumption that many might only get a few actions for a 100v100 fight; maybe 500-600 actions per second. With animation canceling you have a lot more going in on, maybe 2000 to 2400 a second, which compounds in large fights. Again, speculation, but being something ZOS didn't intend to occur also means it could have not been optimized for large battles.

What can be done?
Honestly I'm not sure what can be done on ZOS's end. This seems more like a design issue and they may not have the team there to address an issue like this that could be embedded into the game engine. ZOS has stated it will continue to tweak it, but in the meantime here are a few things to alleviate the bad:

- Reduce effect of an animation canceled attack, increase the fully charged effect. This was supposed to be partly handled by giving stamina/magicka back with heavy attacks, but it's still just as useful to cancel them. I'd are that for attacks and abilities that only a percentage of the potential damage should hit the target with random application of any related buffs/debuffs. Hit a person with a heavy attack and wrecking blow animation can led at 25% may only do 35% of its max damage and may or may not give you stamina back or knock someone off their feet. Fully charging each would give the full damage, any intended effects, and have less chance to missing
- Stamina lost for blocking animation canceled effects is reduced. if you choose to attack someone with 4 wrecking blows in a second, those should be significantly weaker than the one timed out for the second. Players macro canceling would be especially effected if they weren't paying attention to the hits and wasted their big attacks on someone that would be blocking and getting a reduced cost to block.
- Increase the cast time to hit or remove the damage for canceling with a block or dodge roll. One thing big in PVP is the attacking dodge roll, that gives both immunity to most damage and speeds up the attacks. It's to a point where the window to single target attack is a very small window but your enemy will still be able to land some powerful attacks. Increasing the time needed would open the gap a little more to get a few quick strikes in.
- Simply prevent certain abilities from being animation canceled. You can still cancel these abilities, but no damage or effects will come from them if the cast times aren't used.
- Change certain armor sets to favor an actual filly charged attack or ability used. This doesn't need to even be a heavy attack, but changing some of these sets to work off abilities that have a certain charge time would encourage a more responsible rotation.
- Better indicators that something can be animation canceled. New players, like I mentioned, have little knowledge of animation canceling, it's not in any in game tutorials I've seen and its indicators are kind of bad. Most are likely to figure it out when they slam their hands on the keyboard in frustration. Giving better indicators on the ability bars or crosshairs would improve the fluid animation canceling we should be encouraging.

Finally...
- Talk about animation canceling. What this post is about. discuss your experience with it and your opinion on it as a gamer in a constructive manner. Its something we comment off hand but few seem to put an effort to really attack or defend. give your thoughts below in replies.


Hopefully this gives folks something to think about and discuss. This elephant has been in the room for a while as both a positive and negative to the game. I hope some additional balance is given to better incorporate it into the game

MissBizz

I figured I would add in my 2 cents here.

Background: I have been playing ESO since April, yet do not have a single VR14 (VR8 is current highest level), and have not completed all the the veteran level dungeons, although can steadily complete a select few. I am not considered a "skilled" player by any means; I can get by for sure as I have learned a lot, but I was never the best at games. I am also what one would consider a casual. Although my played time may be quite high, much of my game time is not dedicated to earning XP. I am also a PvE only player. I have dabbled in PvP, but it is not something I am currently working on.

I currently do not animation cancel, and do feel it does hinder me a bit. I have a character of each role type, healer being my main and tank being my 2nd most played. Both of these are support roles, and although not calling for high DPS, I feel if I learned to properly animation cancel it would prove me to more useful within a group. I have attempted to learn on how to animation cancel, it actually led me to download a "combat log" add-on to see if it was working. In the heat of a fight, I may even do it accidently, although it seems it's a hard skill for me to learn. I do make a concentrated effort every couple weeks to work on it, but I just can't seem to get it, or stick to focusing on it long enough to get it.

Opinion: As mentioned this is an unintended side-effect of the fluid combat ESO wants to present to us. I do believe that keeping that fluid combat is important, and if removing animation cancelling would take that away, I would ask it to stay. I'm not a fan of it, although I am bias due to the fact I cannot do it properly. This may stray the topic a bit, but what I would prefer to see is the times when most people deem it absolutely necessary (any boss fight that has a DPS race), that the damage needed be able to be achieved WITHOUT animation cancelling. I do consider it a skill, as it takes time and patience to learn, so it does give skilled players and edge - that is fine. Allow them to beat the content a bit quicker than most, they are skilled players, it only makes sense they complete it faster - although ensure players who are not skilled in this "unintended effect" to also be competitive in the PvE activities. I understand this will not fix any issues of skewed leader boards, but in my mind.. if these players took the time and energy to learn this mechanic, even without it available I feel they would have spent time and energy into another aspect of their game anyways.. and would most likely still be ahead. I agree that if it is staying, there should be more information available.. such as stating in tool tips what abilities CAN be cancelled. Skilled players already know what can and what cannot, and are quite aware of how to do it properly. Help newer/less skilled players work on animation cancelling so they too can work towards being skilled players and compete competitively.

tldr; I don't animation cancel. I think animation cancelling should stay and be embraced. Tooltips should state if an attack can be cancelled.

s7732425ub17_ESO

Dammit. Stop talking about animation cancelling. It's been discussed over and over and over and over. Adding more walls of text that no one is going to read is wasting your time.

Animation cancelling adds a sense of skill and fluidity to the game, and this is very, very important. As a game designer, you need to design ways for the player to feel like they are improving, and animation cancelling is perfect for this. You start out really bad, but over time, you get better and better and your DPS improves. Then you move on to Trials where you cannot see your own character, and you have to learn to feel the timing. Skill. It makes the game fun.

Sacadon

Constructively, this one has been beaten and beaten and beaten. And since it's not changing anyway, I just don't see the point. But I'm not asking you to stop just sharing my opinion.

Aerieth

I really enjoy animation cancelling as it is. Takes a bit of practice to get right but is quite rewarding to master.

Xjcon

I agree that it adds a Skill to the game, and I embrace this way of doing things, however the fact that macros are so widely used is a bit unsettling, I mean there is probly very few high end dps that is pure all by hand perfectly canceled rotations. I'm not saying to drop the ban hammer but it's a bit out of control I assure you.

Ithilis

First time I hear about this, explains a lot.. Me and my companion always play as duo and we often felt in group dungeons that other players are noticeable stronger somehow, no matter how we tweaked our builds.
In the other hand I think it is about skill to manage animation canceling. On the second hand, is it isn't mentioned in any official tutorials in any way, I don't think it is intended game mechanic and therefore it shouldn't be used.

golfer.dub17_ESO

Because of animation canceling, dungeons and trials are more difficult to those that don't do animation canceling.

True, but I simply don't know of anyone who absolutely refuses to animation cancel, and if they do they are being a scrub by the literal definition of the word.

Personally I don't care either way if they fix it or not, so long as they actually fix it (i.e. scale difficulty and dps to compensate for its removal). Game would be too slow if they didn't.

As for skill, I honestly don't think it adds any significant amount of skill to warrant keeping it for that reason alone. Medium Weaves can be tricky at first, but you get the grasp fairly quickly. Light Weaves require no effort at all.

Weighted is one example where a good idea for adding weapon speed was reduced to useless because canceling the attacks resulted in just as fast damage, raising the usefulness of others.

Weighted has always been useless in my opinion, and that has more to do with attack damage versus skill damage than it does with weaving. Still, weaving puts the nail in the coffin.

Robotmafia

Aerieth wrote: »

I really enjoy animation cancelling as it is. Takes a bit of practice to get right but is quite rewarding to master.

definitely! It adds a skill one can master... animation canceling with a complex rotation with multiple cool downs really adds another challenge... compared to just pressing your rotation over and over again...

AssaultLemming

I kind of hate it, coming from games with auto attacks for your weapons I prefer that over having to click my mouse once every second to do a light attack. I would rather be able to focus on my spells and forget about weapon attacks. If that's not an option then light and heavy attack durations should be synced with the animations. You should be able to interrupt with block and dodge but that should result in no damage.

HeroOfNone

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

Dammit. Stop talking about animation cancelling. It's been discussed over and over and over and over. Adding more walls of text that no one is going to read is wasting your time.

Animation cancelling adds a sense of skill and fluidity to the game, and this is very, very important. As a game designer, you need to design ways for the player to feel like they are improving, and animation cancelling is perfect for this. You start out really bad, but over time, you get better and better and your DPS improves. Then you move on to Trials where you cannot see your own character, and you have to learn to feel the timing. Skill. It makes the game fun.

Please read the post, or at least skim it. I'm not attempting to bash the skill line, but discuss the properties around it that still need to be addressed, like the lack of tutorials, challenges that require it be used for time, and the issue with some of the macroing it causes. the wall of text is long, but if you don't want to read it why bother replying with a counter argument that was already semi mentioned in the body of the topic?

Sacadon wrote: »

Constructively, this one has been beaten and beaten and beaten. And since it's not changing anyway, I just don't see the point. But I'm not asking you to stop just sharing my opinion.

while I don't see animation canceling changing either, I can see small points, tutorials, and other aid to be given to folks that don't already know about animation canceling.

Ithilis wrote: »

First time I hear about this, explains a lot.. Me and my companion always play as duo and we often felt in group dungeons that other players are noticeable stronger somehow, no matter how we tweaked our builds.
In the other hand I think it is about skill to manage animation canceling. On the second hand, is it isn't mentioned in any official tutorials in any way, I don't think it is intended game mechanic and therefore it shouldn't be used.

This is unfortunately the case that its sanctioned and you're expected to do it to get some of your challenge times, but it isn't explained anywhere in game really, which leaves a lot of players in the same opinion. They built the challenges with animation canceling in mind but it still puts you at a huge handicap if you don't use it.



thanks for your responses folks. keep in mind this isn't an attack on animation canceling, lets just call it an awareness post of what it is and what its effecting in our game today.

Messy1

Could someone post a video of animation canceling being used effectively?

Then also post a similar video not using animation canceling.

Then along with those posts stats and the difference in DPS/Healing/Damage mitigation.

I'm pretty sure a lot of people use animation canceling every once in a while unintentionally and those who have mastered it seem to have an advantage. The advantage of animation canceling is obviously most visible in PvP because it pits a ton of players who don't use animation canceling against an elite few who do. Once again though I'm not sure if people know that they are actually using animation canceling to some extent. In PvE if all that I've read is somewhat true animation canceling has affected game difficulty and NOT EVERYONE uses or is even aware of animation canceling, but those few who use to precision and effectiveness have changed the game for everyone else.

In any event, animation cancelling is a BIG PROBLEM and I hope ZOS is monitoring it very closely. I like the combat in this game, it is fluid, it's not clunky like some claim. Clunky combat is a staple of almost every other MMO, but not ESO.

The animation canceling issue is not disappearing so it must be causing some in game problems that people are obviously picking up on. I've heard a lot of complaints about animation canceling in PvP, but a lot of people favor it in PvE, however, it is not a matter of PvP vs. PvE playstyles it is an ambiguous possibly broken game mechanic that needs to be addressed to balance the game in both cases!

Praxxos

bad thing

Eldarth

It's stupid and does NOT contribute to the "fluidity" of the immersion/game. It prevents all combat telegraphing to opponents of what is being done and denies them the opportunity to choose to block an attack because it is unseen, or interrupt a spell being cast, because, once again, it is unseen what the opponent is doing.

And, as mentioned it leads to the macro-exploitation that NO ONE will ever admit to doing, and is virtually undetectable unless ZOS adds even MORE code to detect macroing/micro-timing patterns. A total waste of development time.

It's like going to a boxing match and watching two guys standing a few feet apart and just spontaneously watching bruises and bloody noses appear without any idea how or why.

...and I definitely think it is at least a portion of the cause of lag in Cyrodil.

Messy1

Okay, here's a good explanation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb0O9zjMDN4

But is there a updated explanation the stat changes that occurred with 1.6?

Maybe Deltia can provide some more info?

Messy1

Messy1 wrote: »

Okay, here's a good explanation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb0O9zjMDN4

But is there a updated explanation the stat changes that occurred with 1.6?

Maybe Deltia can provide some more info?

Lol okay now that I have watched this video, I can safely say that I have been using animation canceling "weaving" in the game for both PvP and PvE. I don't think that it gives a gigantic advantage, unless someone uses macros like has been discussed. Macros always give ya an extra edge no matter what and personally I refuse to use macros.

Messy1

Eldarth wrote: »

It's stupid and does NOT contribute to the "fluidity" of the immersion/game. It prevents all combat telegraphing to opponents of what is being done and denies them the opportunity to choose to block an attack because it is unseen, or interrupt a spell being cast, because, once again, it is unseen what the opponent is doing.

And, as mentioned it leads to the macro-exploitation that NO ONE will ever admit to doing, and is virtually undetectable unless ZOS adds even MORE code to detect macroing/micro-timing patterns. A total waste of development time.

It's like going to a boxing match and watching two guys standing a few feet apart and just spontaneously watching bruises and bloody noses appear without any idea how or why.

...and I definitely think it is at least a portion of the cause of lag in Cyrodil.

Gosh, I'm so on the fence about this right now. I am going to have to consciously see how it affects my playing in game now, but you make some good points as to why it's unfair.

It seems like animation canceling "weaving" is essentially the idea that you can just sneak extra light attacks into your combat, hence the term "weaving" cause it allows you to put little light attack "stitches" into your combat pattern. I like the way Deltia explained it and it is not an exploit. Hmmm very interesting.

Haxnschwammer

Very early in the game when animation cancelling was on the forums the first time it was
called an unintended feature and clearly exploit by ZOS.
They stated they won't punish players because they can't distinguish between those who do it on
purpose and those who do it accidently, as it is so easy to do.
They said they will fix it fast.

Over time nothing happend. Two months ago in one of the ESO Live streams it was clearly stated
that animation cancelling is not an exploit and poeple are encouraged to use it.
Between the lines in some older comments it was hinted that it is too complex to remove it as it is
in the core combat mechanics. I think they just gave up trying and used the easy way out: "It's allowed"

Also about two months ago someone posted an official response from customer service
that using macros for animation cancelling is "absolutely OK". That there is nothing that stands
against using keyboard or mouse macros to increase damage.
In the same thread people bragged about their instant kill macros. Without any further reaction of ZOS.

At that time I gave up hope that this will ever be looked at.
I don't use animation cancelling (unless unintended because blocking), it still feels unlogical and wrong to me.
But others do it. Someone made a video where he raised his damage output by 25%. He burned through
resources but who cares when your opponent is dead?

xMovingTarget

Whoever needs macros for weaving is braindead and shouldnt be playing videogames at all. Weaving is so easy. Someoone in a coma could do it.

And it should not be removed. Combat without it is plain boring.

coldreactive_ESO

You can also block cast obviously (Which is an animation cancel. TERA has that as well, and it is the only way to play lancer effectively, since you cannot turn on a dime as lancer in TERA without doing blocks and immediately cancelling them at the same time.)

Palidon

For those of you who think it should go or are complaining about it learn how to animation cancel. I for one am sick and tired of all the complaining going on about this excellent way to increase ones DPS output. Everyone can do it, it is not restricted to one race or skill line. There are plenty of video's available on YouTube that explain and show how to use Animation cancelling or Weaving. If you are a victim of it then learn how to successfully block and dodge.

coldreactive_ESO

Palidon wrote: »

If you are a victim of it then learn how to successfully block and dodge.

That's just as bad as telling someone who has no legs or butt, to walk unaided.

Yasha

Personally I think only dodging or blocking should cancel other animations, so a player should be locked into their decision of skill use. Alternatively, I wouldn't mind allowing animation skills to cancel each other as long as the cancelled skill/animation did not fire off.

One reason for my stance on this is that being able to effectively cast two skills at the same time removes/limits counter play. Atm my understanding is that players are able to have their cake and eat it too so to speak, through using animation cancelling.

However, as it is part of the game and the devs for whatever reason (I think its probably just too hard to fix) are ok with it, then its important for players to get educated and practice using it themselves. Perhaps even a sticky with examples of animation cancelling and how to do/apply it.

If it really is a "feature" of ESO combat, then it would be great to see some devs beating it up in videos/live streams talking about how ESO has this great feature called animation cancelling that gives increased depth and strategy/excitement to combat. I never actually hear people boasting about it, but if it is this unexpected but fantastic part of the system then surely it should be hyped up, or talked about proudly.

Messy1

Yasha wrote: »

Personally I think only dodging or blocking should cancel other animations, so a player should be locked into their decision of skill use. Alternatively, I wouldn't mind allowing animation skills to cancel each other as long as the cancelled skill/animation did not fire off.

One reason for my stance on this is that being able to effectively cast two skills at the same time removes/limits counter play. Atm my understanding is that players are able to have their cake and eat it too so to speak, through using animation cancelling.

However, as it is part of the game and the devs for whatever reason (I think its probably just too hard to fix) are ok with it, then its important for players to get educated and practice using it themselves. Perhaps even a sticky with examples of animation cancelling and how to do/apply it.

If it really is a "feature" of ESO combat, then it would be great to see some devs beating it up in videos/live streams talking about how ESO has this great feature called animation cancelling that gives increased depth and strategy/excitement to combat. I never actually hear people boasting about it, but if it is this unexpected but fantastic part of the system then surely it should be hyped up, or talked about proudly.

Are you playing devil's advocate here? Lol

infraction2008b16_ESO

I find it funny how people defend things that give them a significant advantage to the death here, first we had up until 1.3-1.6 magicka builds outperforming stamina and people acted though it was perfectly ok that only a small subset of magicka builds were viable for endgame... that the play as you want slogan was a complete lie. We have/had grinding mobs over and over which probably still the most effective way to earn xp vs actually doing content like dungeon, trials, questing, pvp and people complain that when it gets nerfed that they don't like to do anything but boringly grind mobs all day in a game that has pretty strong lore focus. We have the ranged vs melee argument still, the fact that some bosses actually require rolling a ranged build.

And then there's animation cancelling, I'm personally not against light/heavy attack weaving but I don't think any mmo should allow you to cancel out entire casts. I mean that's why all the good mmo's out there have something called a global cooldown.

LucyferLightbringer

They really should add tutorial for it. Something along the lines of:

Welcome to ESO the only MMO where you are expected to use unintended feature/glitch/bug/exploit to complete content. Here how its done .............. Incase you discover any more bugs/glitches/exploits that make you overpowered, please let us know so we can turn it into feature and balance game around it instead of fixing it.

They should also add big YOU SUCK on screen message every time you let animation fully play as it was designed.

Eldarth

Palidon wrote: »

If you are a victim of it then learn how to successfully block and dodge.

And how exactly do you successfully block and dodge? When does your opponent telegraph something that causes you to react by blocking or dodging? Nothing? You don't see anything? So....you just mash block/dodge all the time hoping you accidentally timed it right to match up to their non-telegraphed attack?

Tell you what -- come over here, close your eyes, and I'll try and punch you in the nose and you decide when to block.

TheShadowScout

Well, I've been playing since last summer, and while I certainly am nowhere near "great player" status, I kinda figured out animation canceling on my own long before I heard the term and learned the particulars of it. Just alternating light attacks and blood craze on my nightblade main in rapid succession, or light shots and poison arrow when I switch to bow... and of course once you figure it out, you see it on all your characters.
I like how the ranking of "attack-ability-defense" allows you to either add more attacks to your abilities, or stop your windup to defend when you notice the enemy going for a big strike on their own, and I think its an interesting and nifty part of the game system.

The only real issue I have with animation canceling is when people use macros to string together "boom-you're dead" assaults. Which I am sad to say, seems to happen a lot in cyrodil, all too often I found myself on the ground with everything turning blue immidiately after someone charged me, and then learn in the recap that during this second of combat I had been hit with multiple attacks in addition to the charge... and I wish there were some checks and balances against macros in the game.
But it does indeed seem to be the arms race among PvP-fanatics, and since I refuse to use addons or macros, I have resigned to being forever at a disadvantage. Not that much a deal for me personally, since I am not too PvP-happy myself anyhow.

JTorus

Weaving is definitely one of those things that more players need to learn to do, and master. (Myself included.) I absolutely agree that there needs to be more attention brought to it in game, if nothing more than via prompts or some tutorials. I'm also certain at this point that based on some of the Trial boss encounters, ZOS develops with animation cancelling at least somewhat in mind.

While initially unintended and later embraced, mastering animation cancelling is its own reward, but for players who chose not to, or simply can't, I think there should definitely be a tradeoff. Afterall this game is heralded as 'play any way you like' right? Variety should embraced.

Like you pointed out, some traits like weighted, and other armor sets aren't as popular because other builds are more attractive, catering to a cancelling playstyle. Perhaps offering some variety to those who do not weave, rewarding them for going the 'slow and steady' route so at the very least their DPS compares to someone who cancels. I also agree that perhaps taking the shortcut route for more DPS shouldn't offer the returned Stam/Mag on weaved heavy attack, simply in the name of balance. I'm all for a fair tradeoff, you fight harder and faster, you burn out faster too.

As for macros, I'm totally against them. While I don't foresee ZOS doing anything about it anytime soon, readjusting some combat mechanics that remove rewards (damage intensity, resource returns) to weaved attacks would go a long way to discourage macros. I don't think it could be considered a nerf. Besides, when you're letting your computer play the game for you, there's no skill there, efficient? Sure, but skilless in its entirety. At that point, why not just load up Progress Quest and marvel at yourself.

psicorpb16_ESO

So to sum this thread up , all competitive ppl use it, ZOS can't do anything to stop ppl doing it, so ppl need to learn to use it to be competitive, macros make it easier , ZOS can't detect (or don't want to distinguish) those macros, so unless you learn to 'weave' and especially 'macro weave' then you are gimped in competitive play.
Furthermore 'weaving (esp. Macro weaving) might be the reason behind lag in a lot of instances

Ergo. ZOS needs to stop weaving in their coding, or code/build game that can cope.

Or am I missing something?

(Btw I don't use it cos i'm a crap casual pve gamer that doesn't know how) but am tempted to learn now

HeroOfNone

Just a few replies for those that might think this is meant as an attack on animation canceling:

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Whoever needs macros for weaving is braindead and shouldnt be playing videogames at all. Weaving is so easy. Someoone in a coma could do it.

And it should not be removed. Combat without it is plain boring.

I don't think a majority of those that use macros for DPS are using it because they can't do it, but to keep up steady DPS on certain fights. I don't expect most that do use them to admit it here on the forums, but talk to some of the folks with the top times on trials and DSA that do primarily DPS, I'm certain you'll find a few that will be honest about using macros.

And not advocating it be taken out either, but make things less reliant on it maybe with more mechanics and less emphasis on it for achievements.

Palidon wrote: »

For those of you who think it should go or are complaining about it learn how to animation cancel. I for one am sick and tired of all the complaining going on about this excellent way to increase ones DPS output. Everyone can do it, it is not restricted to one race or skill line. There are plenty of video's available on YouTube that explain and show how to use Animation cancelling or Weaving. If you are a victim of it then learn how to successfully block and dodge.

I don't think it should go, but there is a lot to criticize about its current implementation of it. If its going to be a required part of the game then there should be more teaching new players about it and there should be effective counters to it so its integrated into the game better as a play style. In addition, more incentive to do it naturally rather than macros should also be given, in my opinion.

Now, a few other thoughts:

If animation canceling is an intended mechanic at this point then what is the purpose of casting times that go with it? yes you need resources to roll dodge or block to cancel it, but there are few, if any, indicators that you should be able to do that ability early. When developers made the ability, was the thought really that this would be a strong ability that we can have go off multiple times in a second, or that it was a strong solo attack intended to come in after a few quick attacks? If the latter, then should some of those be rebalanced so they wouldn't take such a major advantage of the cancel? Maybe the casting time should be reduced or removed to give a level playing field to those not using the animation cancel?

Have the devs, when play testing their builds, been using animation canceling, and to what degree? did they design it with only canceling light and heavy attacks, or did they also look into the roll dodge and block cancel? Where things tested with macros as well to see what folks would be able to do when they did what they were told they weren't supposed to, verses what an average player could do normally? I don't expect many to be able to answer that unless a ZOS employee wants to reply, but I'd still be interested in the answer.

Thanks for your time for those that read through and replied.