So about 4 man group content (i.e. adventure zones & dungeons)and forced trinity....

infraction2008b16_ESO

So while most people who don't like the forced grouping for most of craglorn are waiting for wrothgar, I don't feel forced grouping is the problem but rather the way everything requires groups consisting of tanks, healers and dps meaning those who just want to get into the game and group with people are hit with this barrier to find specific roles for their group in order to do anything meaningful at endgame. Most people actually don't have the patience to form groups like this hence why grinding mobs has become the thing they do to pass time.

As for dungeons, while vet dungeons should be role based I feel there's little incentive to queue for the normal ones even for the odd silver key as everyone is on a gold key/head/shoulder farm. I feel with the instance scaling while the best rewards should be given from vet dungeons normal dungeons should still have purpose i.e. something quick and easy for players to take part in. I mean take a look at SWTOR for example with tactical flashpoints, they don't require any role meaning queues are nice and fast and you not only earn you a small number of comms but give you a nice load of points for your guilds planetary conquest. They don't replace the HM FP's but are meaningful to run.

In short here's what I feel ZoS should consider:

1/ Balance adventure zone content (at the very least future adventure zones like murkmire if not craglorn) for 4 man groups with any role (I'll use the term role-less).

2/ Make the normal dungeons also role-less and more akin to SWTOR's tacticals. I feel this will make them nice and fast to get groups (both while levelling and at level cap) for but not a replacement for veteran dungeons.

nerevarine1138

Well, the scaling function has essentially made normal dungeons role-less. I often run those without a tank if we're scaling it down.

infraction2008b16_ESO

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Well, the scaling function has essentially made normal dungeons role-less. I often run those without a tank if we're scaling it down.

I mean at (or close to) level/rank and casually completable by a group consisting of any role.

DDuke

This thread was bound to happen with all the GW2 players pouring in due to B2P etc...

Short answer: NO.


If you've played the group content in GW2, you know why.

Trinity is, and always will be required for good MMORPG gameplay. You don't play as a bunch of individuals mashing buttons & trying to get high DPS, you play as a team, every person doing their own role (not the same role).

Why dumb things down & change what works?

Lord Xanhorn

DDuke wrote: »

This thread was bound to happen with all the GW2 players pouring in due to B2P etc...

Short answer: NO.


If you've played the group content in GW2, you know why.

Trinity is, and always will be required for good MMORPG gameplay. You don't play as a bunch of individuals mashing buttons & trying to get high DPS, you play as a team, every person doing their own role (not the same role).

Why dumb things down & change what works?

yup this.....

Its why I never got into GW2. Its a great game overall but dps in MMOs is my least favorite thing to do. I like supporting difficult group content.

infraction2008b16_ESO

DDuke wrote: »

If you've played the group content in GW2, you know why.

The problem with GW2 is everything was designed for role-less gameplay. That's not what I'm suggesting as vet dungeons, trials and DSA would still require the trinity system. The idea is if you want to take on challenging content in co-ordinated groups you'd still have that but if you just want to casually run something quickly to pass the time then normal dungeons would provide that route rather than having the same role requirements as vet/progression content.

Why dumb things down & change what works?

Because it doesn't, normal dungeons and most of craglorn are dead end content, pretty much both done once then forgotten. They should be the bread and butter of endgame with vet dungeons/trials/DSA being the filling.

DDuke

infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Why dumb things down & change what works?

Because it doesn't, normal dungeons and most of craglorn are dead end content, pretty much both done once then forgotten. They should be the bread and butter of endgame with vet dungeons/trials/DSA being the filling.

And you assume the reason people do it only once is because of the difficulty? Or finding a tank/healer for them?

Sorry, but it's neither. It's the lack of rewards, which is the issue.

At VR14 & with decent build, you can pretty much solo everything in lower Craglorn, and almost everything in upper, but why should I? There is nothing to gain there, and my time is better spent elsewhere.

Rosveen

infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

If you've played the group content in GW2, you know why.

The problem with GW2 is everything was designed for role-less gameplay. That's not what I'm suggesting as vet dungeons, trials and DSA would still require the trinity system. The idea is if you want to take on challenging content in co-ordinated groups you'd still have that but if you just want to casually run something quickly to pass the time then normal dungeons would provide that route rather than having the same role requirements as vet/progression content.

Why dumb things down & change what works?

Because it doesn't, normal dungeons and most of craglorn are dead end content, pretty much both done once then forgotten. They should be the bread and butter of endgame with vet dungeons/trials/DSA being the filling.

Surprisingly enough, normal dungeons aren't there just to be facerolled by veterans. They're exactly that kind of challenging content (well, not really, but y'know) that's meant to prepare low level players for veteran content requiring better coordination. There isn't any other place in low level PvE to learn group roles. If you make them even easier than they already are, people will come out of the battle with Molag Bal with zero teamwork skills.

Keepercraft

ZOS will show you some content if you have septims.

eventide03b14a_ESO

DDuke wrote: »

infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Why dumb things down & change what works?

Because it doesn't, normal dungeons and most of craglorn are dead end content, pretty much both done once then forgotten. They should be the bread and butter of endgame with vet dungeons/trials/DSA being the filling.

And you assume the reason people do it only once is because of the difficulty? Or finding a tank/healer for them?

Sorry, but it's neither. It's the lack of rewards, which is the issue.

At VR14 & with decent build, you can pretty much solo everything in lower Craglorn, and almost everything in upper, but why should I? There is nothing to gain there, and my time is better spent elsewhere.

QFT. Also a lack of a working LFG tool.

ElliottXO

DDuke wrote: »

This thread was bound to happen with all the GW2 players pouring in due to B2P etc...

Short answer: NO.


If you've played the group content in GW2, you know why.

Trinity is, and always will be required for good MMORPG gameplay. You don't play as a bunch of individuals mashing buttons & trying to get high DPS, you play as a team, every person doing their own role (not the same role).

Why dumb things down & change what works?

This. GW2 plays no different than Diablo. I want my holy Trinity. And if people try tough content without tank or healer I wish them to fail.

AlnilamE

At level, pretty much all normal dungeons can be done without the trinity. Sure, it they will be easier if you have a tank and a dedicated healer, but you can walk into them with 4 DPS that can off-heal and complete them reasonably easily.

Most Craglorn delves can too. There are a couple of bosses that are much more easily done with a tank, though. But there's enough flexibility in builds that a Magicka DPS can heal with a resto staff if you don't have a dedicated healer in a group.

Vet dungeons are a different story, though I'm sure really good players could do it. Of course, really good players know the importance of roles and know how to play theirs.

Head.hunter

Most quests in the game don't depend on roles, you can group as a bunch of dps if you like. Dungeons require some actual skill and make the game much higher quality.

BBSooner

I enjoy the trinity. Developers enjoy the trinity because they can build content (ideally challenging and interesting) with the notion in mind that the trinity can handle all kinds of circumstances since "all the bases are covered" as it were. Content that is dumbed down mechanically to allow for people to go in and casually beat while just fumbling through the dungeon isn't something I'm interested in.

eventide03b14a_ESO

AlnilamE wrote: »

At level, pretty much all normal dungeons can be done without the trinity. Sure, it they will be easier if you have a tank and a dedicated healer, but you can walk into them with 4 DPS that can off-heal and complete them reasonably easily.

Most Craglorn delves can too. There are a couple of bosses that are much more easily done with a tank, though. But there's enough flexibility in builds that a Magicka DPS can heal with a resto staff if you don't have a dedicated healer in a group.

Vet dungeons are a different story, though I'm sure really good players could do it. Of course, really good players know the importance of roles and know how to play theirs.

The Craglorn delves can be easily be duoed .

infraction2008b16_ESO

DDuke wrote: »

infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Why dumb things down & change what works?

Because it doesn't, normal dungeons and most of craglorn are dead end content, pretty much both done once then forgotten. They should be the bread and butter of endgame with vet dungeons/trials/DSA being the filling.

And you assume the reason people do it only once is because of the difficulty? Or finding a tank/healer for them?

Sorry, but it's neither. It's the lack of rewards, which is the issue.

At VR14 & with decent build, you can pretty much solo everything in lower Craglorn, and almost everything in upper, but why should I? There is nothing to gain there, and my time is better spent elsewhere.

You're actually half right half wrong, it is the lack of rewards... that discourages people from spamming Zone/Guild chat for tanks or healers for hours on end. My point is the rewards should be lower, but the content shouldn't be tight on roles.

And of course you could solo most of lower crag over ranked far overgeared in a uber survivability AoE build straight off a tamriel foundry theory crafting sub forum, but that doesn't mean the content is balanced for the average joe who might not even be VR10+ to dawdle into by themselves.

Emma_Overload

infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Why dumb things down & change what works?

Because it doesn't, normal dungeons and most of craglorn are dead end content, pretty much both done once then forgotten. They should be the bread and butter of endgame with vet dungeons/trials/DSA being the filling.

And you assume the reason people do it only once is because of the difficulty? Or finding a tank/healer for them?

Sorry, but it's neither. It's the lack of rewards, which is the issue.

At VR14 & with decent build, you can pretty much solo everything in lower Craglorn, and almost everything in upper, but why should I? There is nothing to gain there, and my time is better spent elsewhere.

And of course you could solo most of lower crag over ranked far overgeared in a uber survivability AoE build straight off a tamriel foundry theory crafting sub forum

Why settle for Lower Craglorn when you can solo the Upper half with my famous Electric Turtle build!

Seraphyel

infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »

So while most people who don't like the forced grouping for most of craglorn are waiting for wrothgar...

Waiting for Wrothgar? That's more than 4 or 5 months away. I would say those people should start grouping for Craglorn, lol.

infraction2008b16_ESO

BBSooner wrote: »

I enjoy the trinity. Developers enjoy the trinity because they can build content (ideally challenging and interesting) with the notion in mind that the trinity can handle all kinds of circumstances since "all the bases are covered" as it were. Content that is dumbed down mechanically to allow for people to go in and casually beat while just fumbling through the dungeon isn't something I'm interested in.

But should the trinity be used for everything that's 4 man? That's what I'm propposing not removing trinity from the game entirelly just from the content that people don't have as much interest for due to rewards not being as great or while levelling waiting around for tanks or healers is detrimental to your levelling pace.

Kragorn

DDuke wrote: »

If you've played the group content in GW2, you know why.

This is so true.

I'm not a huge fan of having to 'group up' to level so I loathe VR10+ in ESO, but it's a fact that the 'trinity' is required to make PVE content something other than a DPS zerg where the only tactic is out-DPS the boss before he enrages .. and GW2 shows how dire such a system like that is.

Merlin13KAGL

Kragorn wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

If you've played the group content in GW2, you know why.

This is so true.

I'm not a huge fan of having to 'group up' to level so I loathe VR10+ in ESO, but it's a fact that the 'trinity' is required to make PVE content something other than a DPS zerg where the only tactic is out-DPS the boss before he enrages .. and GW2 shows how dire such a system like that is.

@Kragorn , actually quite a bit of the boss mechanics in Crag are counterintuitive to that paradigm.

Many of the add spawns/triggers are percentage based. DPS too fast and you may find yourself more knee deep in adds than you intended to be.

Many of the bosses in both Vet Dungeons, Cyrodiil, and Crag have actually gotten nerfed. They go down even faster than they used to.

There are a few exceptions of course:

Shada's Tear, Storm Atro's, to name a couple.

It's not even that the trinity is required, it's just that it usually ends up being the most efficient/effective.

Keron

Balancing content around a 4-DPS-group most probably makes it solo-able for any tank and at most duo-able (is that even a word?) for a healer + 1.

In the end, that is the compromise. Either you make group content and that means trinity or you make solo content that is too difficult for some builds.

EDIT: This statement reflects average player skills, not super-over-killer-bunnies on coke who can solo everything on any character given to them

(hyperbole used just for entertainment purposes)

Kragorn

My abiding memory of grouping in GW2 was the chaotic nature of fights where there was not 'tank' to use taunting to control the fight, hate/emnity/aggro/whateveryoucallit sprayed around like champagne coming out of a bottle because there was no tank to control it and everyone was expected to heal themselves because the healing system was laughable in a group context.

It wasn't fun most of the time for me, but then I was usually there for the experience of playing it, or because it was a forced-group event such as the final quest in the Personal Story line .. those seeking phat lewt I guess didn't care as long as they killed the boss and got their loot fix.

BlackEar

The holy trinity brings something that other playstyle will have a hard time doing:

A sense of importance and group dynamic.
A sense of interdependence between the players.

I rely on the tank to take aggro from me, the tank and the rest of the group relies on me to keep them alive and the DPS to kill the enemies before we succumb to them instead.

If everyone went around doing their own thing there would be no "group" in that sense just 4 individuals who stumbled into each other for the sake of individual loot.

asteldian

Adventure zone content is already fully doable with 4 people just using their solo builds. Heck if not for silly requirements on some quests, 2 people in solo builds can do it all.
Only in vet dungeons and beyond is the trinity needed, even then in many cases hybrid tank/dps and hybrid healer/dps will do.

Vaerth

DDuke wrote: »

This thread was bound to happen with all the GW2 players pouring in due to B2P etc...

Short answer: NO.


If you've played the group content in GW2, you know why.

Trinity is, and always will be required for good MMORPG gameplay. You don't play as a bunch of individuals mashing buttons & trying to get high DPS, you play as a team, every person doing their own role (not the same role).

Why dumb things down & change what works?

I agree, but prepare for a warning from ZoS as they will call your post "baiting".