PvP is Pretty Much Dead - Paul Sage's Post

WebBull

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/157157/update-on-cyrodiil-performance#latest

I have been in business a long time and it is very easy to see what is being said here. Let me translate..........We are not going to be putting anymore resources into Cyrodiil. It is up to the players to fix it themselves. It's done. They don't know how to fix it or don't want to spend the money to fix it. Sad.

dharbert

The solution is extremely simple. Put PvP on a separate server.

McDoogs

Yeah pretty much "We can't fix it, players are going to have to just not zerg it up if they don't want cyrodiil to lag"

yodased

Pve = $$$$ From crown store, easy balance, completely static except updates and MAYBE slight class balance.


PvP = Friggin headache, lots of crying, *** who exploit and cheat, complete unbalance of game.


choose wisely.

rsciw

"We advertised large scale PvP, but please don't play large scale PvP, we can't handle it."

Rook_Master

No, what's unreasonable is people screaming "UPGRADE YOUR SERVERZZZ!!!"

Disincentivizing large zergs and encouraging people to spread out to different objectives in Cyrodiil would be a good change anyway.

People holding out for some magical fix to the lag caused by large zergs have their heads stuck in the sand.

TehMagnus

dharbert wrote: »

The solution is extremely simple. Put PvP on a separate server.

It has nothing to do with server, megaserver technology is not a single server but a network of multiple servers anyways.

The problem with PVP is the engine, just like the Hero engine that killed large scale battles in SWTOR, the engine they suposedly developed here just can't handle the stress of so many players in the same location. If the solution was hardware, they would have fixed it a long time ago, but it isn't.

You can't even say it's bad coding, this is common in many engines and would require monstrous amounts of money to be fixed, and I don't know if you've been folowing the press, but this game is about earning money for ZOS now, not spending billions to redo the game engine...

yodased

It wouldn't be magic, it would be optimizing code and changing the game engine to one that wouldn't render individual particle effects for each player x every player.

Thats not magic, although science sometimes seems like magic.

Regardless that isn't going to happen, sure as *** not by tuesday, so they simply need to make it worth peoples while to not zerg or make it detrimental to zerg.

Positive or negative reinforcement, whichever they want to do is needed, but it has to happen right meow.

AshySamurai

dharbert wrote: »

The solution is extremely simple. Put PvP on a separate server.

Move it on another server and it will continue to lag. It really doesn't help much. And it's real pain to rewrite all PvP.

timidobserver

I like it when Paul Sage posts stuff. I appreciate an real response teling us what is really going on, even if it isn't what we want to hear, rather than the usual canned stuff that we get from other ZOS staff.

HeroOfNone

Solution seems even simpler, give smaller scale structured pvp. Even with the large wall of text there, the core still remains the most simple and elegant solution to pvp. Cyrodiil can be worked on in the meantime.

Dazin93

Well, players have been clamoring for a response regarding PvP lag issues besides the standard "we are working on it/looking into it" retorts, and now you have it. The fact that nothing has improved performance wise since 1.3 should have been telling enough imho, but hopefully now it is crystal clear that their only "solution" is to attempt degrade PvP and Cyrodiil into an arena consisting of small skirmishes instead of the Alliance war that was promised.

LegacyDM

Wow this is unacceptable. They advertised a product and can't deliver. This is like ordering a plane ticket and being told everyone has to stand because there isn't enough seats on the plane. The customer has to find a solution to the companies problem. I guess we all now know the real reason for removing forward camps. If they can't fix a game breaking game mechanic this game will fail. It's only a matter of time before another mmorpg comes a long that can deliver. Epic fail. Here's the solution. Just limit the amount of people on each campaign before breaking point and provide players an incentive to play in an under populated campaign. Add more campaigns if needed. Just wow.

Soulshine

So a game that is still massively marketing itself as providing mass scale PvP is now actively working on ways to discourage mass scale PvP.

Where is the darned LoL button again, cause I don't even... o.O

Xjcon

Yes ride horses more. Don't group up.

kevlarto_ESO

I have been playing mmo's since the 90's, I do not think they are giving up, I do think they have hit a wall, they need us spread out on the map doing different things, maybe Imperial City would take some of the pressure off the main battle field.

I have had some huge battles with little to no lag until the 3rd faction shows up in force, then things start to slow down. I wonder if the huge use of addon's contribute to the lag, in beta before most people were running them we had good three faction battles and a lot less lag.

Valymer

As has been said time and time again, add some other forms of PvP such as dueling, arena, and/or battlegrounds and Cyrodiil lag will be basically solved due to the number of players exploring other PvP options.

Grim13

..hmmm...

Maybe, just maybe, if they made siege weapons actually F people up... there wouldn't be these compact groups of players everywhere spamming the same 2 -3 abilities over and over... because they'd already be dead.

Merlin13KAGL

yodased wrote: »

It wouldn't be magic, it would be optimizing code and changing the game engine to one that wouldn't render individual particle effects for each player x every player.

Thats not magic, although science sometimes seems like magic.

Regardless that isn't going to happen, sure as *** not by tuesday, so they simply need to make it worth peoples while to not zerg or make it detrimental to zerg.

Positive or negative reinforcement, whichever they want to do is needed, but it has to happen right meow.

@yodased , agreed. Somehow I suspect they're moving more data back and forth than is necessary. Many things could be handled client-side once the initial trigger was in place. We all don't need exactly the same view, just the illusion of it.

Optimized encoding of what's really going on (Major effect) with the version of display implemented locally would make a world of difference. It doesn't matter if the explosion looks the same to me as it does to you. It only matters that it's synced when it goes off, where it goes off, and the overall effect.

I realize that's still going to be a lot of data flowing back and forth, but I doubt it's as minimized as it could be.

I've (oddly) never taken a direct look at the data stream one way or the other.

Torchbug/Deer removal 'fix' screams that certain things (less impactful) were given way more processing and network time than necessary. I suspect the same it true of weather effects and lighting.

There should be little more server load, client load, network load for a zerg impulse spamming than for a zerg taking a casual stroll. It's all in the implementation.

Armitas

WebBull wrote: »

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/157157/update-on-cyrodiil-performance#latest

I have been in business a long time and it is very easy to see what is being said here. Let me translate..........We are not going to be putting anymore resources into Cyrodiil. It is up to the players to fix it themselves. It's done. They don't know how to fix it or don't want to spend the money to fix it. Sad.

I could not draw the same conclusion from what was said. I think when we over speculate on official statements we will make ZOS hesitant to make any official remarks in the future. That said, I did not walk away hopeful from that announcement.

Ashigaru

Rook_Master wrote: »

No, what's unreasonable is people screaming "UPGRADE YOUR SERVERZZZ!!!"

Disincentivizing large zergs and encouraging people to spread out to different objectives in Cyrodiil would be a good change anyway.

People holding out for some magical fix to the lag caused by large zergs have their heads stuck in the sand.

How bout pull you head out... this kind of pvp worked perfectly years ago in DAoC with a heck of a lot more people at sieges then we see here, if it could be done 10 years ago, with the tech we have now they sure as heck can fix the issue or should never have had the issue since DAY 1.

Sallington

This sums up my reaction perfectly. I bought the game for the large-scale PvP being advertised. It is now our, the players, responsibility to make sure we don't form too large of a group and break the server.

"Oh jeez, that's a big battle for a scroll over there. Better go PvE quest until it blows over and settles down."

Welp, cya.

Darlgon

Ashigaru wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

No, what's unreasonable is people screaming "UPGRADE YOUR SERVERZZZ!!!"

Disincentivizing large zergs and encouraging people to spread out to different objectives in Cyrodiil would be a good change anyway.

People holding out for some magical fix to the lag caused by large zergs have their heads stuck in the sand.

How bout pull you head out... this kind of pvp worked perfectly years ago in DAoC with a heck of a lot more people at sieges then we see here, if it could be done 10 years ago, with the tech we have now they sure as heck can fix the issue or should never have had the issue since DAY 1.

At the risk of being foolish, you DO KNOW that the AVA team here is a lot of the guys from DAOC? Maybe your memory is a little rosy.

Ashigaru

Armitas wrote: »

WebBull wrote: »

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/157157/update-on-cyrodiil-performance#latest

I have been in business a long time and it is very easy to see what is being said here. Let me translate..........We are not going to be putting anymore resources into Cyrodiil. It is up to the players to fix it themselves. It's done. They don't know how to fix it or don't want to spend the money to fix it. Sad.

I could not draw the same conclusion from what was said. I think when we over speculate on official statements we will make ZOS hesitant to make any official remarks in the future.

How could you not see what was said, rephrasing it, he said we can not fix the problem so we are going to change you the player and AGAIN make you do what we want you to do "not play as you want to" and we are going to change your mind from large scale PvP which was one of our MAIN SELLING POINTS besides the fact that you could PLAY AS YOU WANT TO which we are not letting you do that now...

Pretty much sums it up.

ItsGlaive

Ashigaru wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

No, what's unreasonable is people screaming "UPGRADE YOUR SERVERZZZ!!!"

Disincentivizing large zergs and encouraging people to spread out to different objectives in Cyrodiil would be a good change anyway.

People holding out for some magical fix to the lag caused by large zergs have their heads stuck in the sand.

How bout pull you head out... this kind of pvp worked perfectly years ago in DAoC with a heck of a lot more people at sieges then we see here, if it could be done 10 years ago, with the tech we have now they sure as heck can fix the issue or should never have had the issue since DAY 1.

I imagine a lot of it is due to technical issues with their "not really, we promise" tweaked version of Hero Engine. Still though, it'd be nice to participate in PVP as advertised one day...

Vahrokh

WebBull wrote: »

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/157157/update-on-cyrodiil-performance#latest

I have been in business a long time and it is very easy to see what is being said here. Let me translate..........We are not going to be putting anymore resources into Cyrodiil. It is up to the players to fix it themselves. It's done. They don't know how to fix it or don't want to spend the money to fix it. Sad.

So much for the flaunted: "WE'LL DELIVER YOU DAOC 2 REBORN!"

Bfish22090

I wonder what PvP will be like on console... Me thinks it won't be as much lag

Vahrokh

Xabien wrote: »

I imagine a lot of it is due to technical issues with their "not really, we promise" tweaked version of Hero Engine. Still though, it'd be nice to participate in PVP as advertised one day...

It's since beta this is known. Did they quit advertising mass scale PvP and being the "DAoC 2"? No.

There's this bad thing called: "overpromising and underdelivering".

Oddly enough, it bites hard in the back, and then suddenly your $100M AAA title flops and goes F2P.

Armitas

Ashigaru wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

WebBull wrote: »

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/157157/update-on-cyrodiil-performance#latest

I have been in business a long time and it is very easy to see what is being said here. Let me translate..........We are not going to be putting anymore resources into Cyrodiil. It is up to the players to fix it themselves. It's done. They don't know how to fix it or don't want to spend the money to fix it. Sad.

I could not draw the same conclusion from what was said. I think when we over speculate on official statements we will make ZOS hesitant to make any official remarks in the future.

How could you not see what was said, rephrasing it, he said we can not fix the problem so we are going to change you the player and AGAIN make you do what we want you to do "not play as you want to" and we are going to change your mind from large scale PvP which was one of our MAIN SELLING POINTS besides the fact that you could PLAY AS YOU WANT TO which we are not letting you do that now...

Pretty much sums it up.

That much I could see.

Merlin13KAGL

Bfish22090 wrote: »

I wonder what PvP will be like on console... Me thinks it won't be as much lag

You understand a console is essentially nothing more than an optimized/streamlined PC, right?

ZOS_TristanK

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