Justice system <3 (maybe spoiler)

ShadowDisciple

I must say i love the new justice system and im really looking forward to it.

Finally my Nightblade will able to pickpocket and steal. So far he is a thief only in my mind.

Great step forward and im looking forward to further developing the system.

But what bugs me is that a single guard bassically wrecks you...and i killed molag bal..kinda breaks immersion...BUT BUT i dont really see a different way to deal with it.

What do you guys think?

Alphashado

I enjoy it very much as well. Stealing, hiding in dark allies, running from the guards while they are screaming at you to stop is a ton of fun. I also wish the guards were at least "vulnerable", but it's hard to imagine a scenario where people weren't killing them endlessly just for something to do.

There are some potential problems with the system though that we really won't get a feel for until it launches, like:

1. Rare motifs/recipes are going to be very rare now and this could/likely will cause prices to go sky high. Time will tell.
2. Provisioning mats are kinda locked behind thievery at this point. We all know that most provisioning mats are supposedly "easily attained" at bandit camps, dungeons etc, but it truly remains to be seen how much of a hassle it's going to be to get them. Poultry is a good example. We can't raise chickens, but we sure as heck can kill our neighbor's chickens and gain an instant bounty in the process. In addition to the wrath of the farmer that will sometimes attack you when you kill his chickens.

ShadowDisciple

I saw i video of justice system lead designer in which he said only owned crates/barells/urns are a subject to stealing, all dungeons and outside of town containers are same as they are now.

Alphashado

ShadowDisciple wrote: »

I saw i video of justice system lead designer in which he said only owned crates/barells/urns are a subject to stealing, all dungeons and outside of town containers are same as they are now.

They are for the most part. But it becomes very clear early on that there aren't as many "unowned" containers as you may think there are. I don't know if it's going to be an issue or not, I only know that while I was testing the justice system myself, it occurred to me a few times that provisioning is going to be a different ball game now. There are far more "owned" containers in the game than "unowned" containers.

ShadowDisciple

Forgot to say lol...u can turn off the justice system as they stated but idk if thats correct

Inco

I do like the whole concept and it's pretty fun, but I'm seeing several items that need work still.

• Launder items cost same as value of that item. Silly.... might as well delete it instead since selling would = 0 value
• Pickpocketing should reward better loot and more points based on risk and RNG of bounty.
• Easy/Med/Hard pickpocket should net MORE points to skill as they progress in level.
• Better loot in Crates/Barrels are easier to obtain than pickpocketing. WHY?
• No warning system or anything to show you if someone sees you stealing from barrels/crates.

NB4 nitpickers state post in PTS Forums (I DID already).

Smaxx

Inco wrote: »

• Launder items cost same as value of that item. Silly.... might as well delete it instead since selling would = 0 value

You're not supposed to launder items for profit directly. Launder items only if you want to keep or wear them.

Alphashado

Inco wrote: »

I do like the whole concept and it's pretty fun, but I'm seeing several items that need work still.

[*] Launder items cost same as value of that item. Silly.... might as well delete it instead since selling would = 0 value
[*] Pickpocketing should reward better loot and more points based on risk and RNG of bounty.
[*] Easy/Med/Hard pickpocket should net MORE points to skill as they progress in level.
[*] Better loot in Crates/Barrels are easier to obtain than pickpocketing. WHY?
[*] No warning system or anything to show you if someone sees you stealing from barrels/crates.


NB4 nitpickers state post in PTS Forums (I DID already).

The only point in laundering something is because you intend to keep it and use it or sell it to another player. A provisioning mat, recipe, or motif for example. Fencing an item is what you do for profit at the fence, not laundering.

EsORising

ShadowDisciple wrote: »

I must say i love the new justice system and im really looking forward to it.

Finally my Nightblade will able to pickpocket and steal. So far he is a thief only in my mind.

Great step forward and im looking forward to further developing the system.

But what bugs me is that a single guard bassically wrecks you...and i killed molag bal..kinda breaks immersion...BUT BUT i dont really see a different way to deal with it.

What do you guys think?

First I like to say I the justice system before i say this...

I THINK the Guard should be the one fighting molag bal. They can probably 10 shot molag bal and they wouldn't even take damage or break a sweat. Why they sending me to kill molag bal when I only have like 15k hp sheshh.

Seriously though, I think guards should be killable. Like excessive HP 20-50x that of a normal character but killable. It just seems pointless to even fight back when they don't even take damage. Where is the fun in that? Probably make the guard stickier (more aggressive) but do less damage would be great too. You know.. so people can watch the spectical of you "trying" to run away then die a bit longer.

Would be cool to see a whole clan killing guards and taking over a town. Maybe even to brag that you took the guard down by 25% or something. Just something other than the unexplainable invunerability of Justice buff that all guards seem to have.

OH ya, Something that should be fixed: One thing that bugs me with guards and npcs is you can leave a pool of dead bodies next to them and they will still flip a coin or look around like they arent standing next to 10 dead bodies.

Inco

Alphashado wrote: »

Inco wrote: »

I do like the whole concept and it's pretty fun, but I'm seeing several items that need work still.

[*] Launder items cost same as value of that item. Silly.... might as well delete it instead since selling would = 0 value
[*] Pickpocketing should reward better loot and more points based on risk and RNG of bounty.
[*] Easy/Med/Hard pickpocket should net MORE points to skill as they progress in level.
[*] Better loot in Crates/Barrels are easier to obtain than pickpocketing. WHY?
[*] No warning system or anything to show you if someone sees you stealing from barrels/crates.


NB4 nitpickers state post in PTS Forums (I DID already).

The only point in laundering something is because you intend to keep it and use it or sell it to another player. A provisioning mat, recipe, or motif for example. Fencing an item is what you do for profit at the fence, not laundering.

Smaxx wrote: »

Inco wrote: »

• Launder items cost same as value of that item. Silly.... might as well delete it instead since selling would = 0 value

You're not supposed to launder items for profit directly. Launder items only if you want to keep or wear them.

WHY? You don't need to launder materials as you can use them and it automatically launders them. You don't need to launder gear you plan to deconstruct. And pretty much nobody is going to wear the GEAR dropped (if they did then a quick improvement removes the stolen mark I think).

WHY would you launder 100g items that are only worth selling anyways? Not a SINGLE item I've seen is worth being laundered to KEEP except maybe a MOTIF or RECIPE. Both of which are usually in houses that will require you to fight off people. Right now you can't break into a house without someone outside and inside throwing an instant bounty on you. Yes I do admit for 1g laundering some alchemy mats might be a good call (Price can't be beat), but rest of the trivial stuff no way.

That said, I still stand by the Launder feature as being broken and useless.

Alphashado

Inco wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Inco wrote: »

I do like the whole concept and it's pretty fun, but I'm seeing several items that need work still.

[*] Launder items cost same as value of that item. Silly.... might as well delete it instead since selling would = 0 value
[*] Pickpocketing should reward better loot and more points based on risk and RNG of bounty.
[*] Easy/Med/Hard pickpocket should net MORE points to skill as they progress in level.
[*] Better loot in Crates/Barrels are easier to obtain than pickpocketing. WHY?
[*] No warning system or anything to show you if someone sees you stealing from barrels/crates.


NB4 nitpickers state post in PTS Forums (I DID already).

The only point in laundering something is because you intend to keep it and use it or sell it to another player. A provisioning mat, recipe, or motif for example. Fencing an item is what you do for profit at the fence, not laundering.

Smaxx wrote: »

Inco wrote: »

• Launder items cost same as value of that item. Silly.... might as well delete it instead since selling would = 0 value

You're not supposed to launder items for profit directly. Launder items only if you want to keep or wear them.

WHY? You don't need to launder materials as you can use them and it automatically launders them. You don't need to launder gear you plan to deconstruct. And pretty much nobody is going to wear the GEAR dropped (if they did then a quick improvement removes the stolen mark I think).

WHY would you launder 100g items that are only worth selling anyways? Not a SINGLE item I've seen is worth being laundered to KEEP except maybe a MOTIF or RECIPE. Both of which are usually in houses that will require you to fight off people. Right now you can't break into a house without someone outside and inside throwing an instant bounty on you. Yes I do admit for 1g laundering some alchemy mats might be a good call (Price can't be beat), but rest of the trivial stuff no way.

That said, I still stand by the Launder feature as being broken and useless.

How is it broken? If you steal a rare motif and you want to sell it to someone, it has to be laundered first. If you just want to sell it to the fence, then you don't even have to worry about it. Not sure what the problem is here. Why would you launder it first, then turn around and sell it to a normal vendor when you can just sell it to the fence for the same price w/o laundering it?

As we have said, you only want to launder something if you want to use it or sell it to another player. This is by design because the idea is that the fence uses his underworld tactics to "cover your tracks" so to speak by disguising the item so it doesn't appear to be stolen goods. If an NPC reports to the guards that her unique purple wedding dress was stolen, and you were seen wearing this unique dress around town, then it would arouse suspicion. That is the point behind getting stolen items laundered. It's basically just RP, and it makes perfect sense and adds realism to the system.

Roechacca

OP brings up a irrefutable point .

TheBull

roechacca wrote: »

OP brings up a irrefutable point .

He had a lot of help. Without the others he's squishy.

GreySix

Hopefully, we'll see a Thieves Guild fence system develop (if not already planned).

TheShadowScout

I for one am also looking forward to the justice system. And hope for lots of expansion on it... Thioeves Guild and Dark Brotherhood are kinda only a matter of time, but... I really would like to see more justice. More consequences then merely a kill on sight, then respawn, then wait and quest until bounty goes down. I want a darn prison, in stendarrs name!

Of course, I also would like the guards more reasonably powered, and just plow lawbreakers under by sheer weight of numbers. Drat... now I have this image stuck in my head, of a player character slammed to the floor, surrounded by half a dozend guards swinging their billy clubs to pummel the former hero gone bad, over and over...

Provisioning, I don't worry about. Between dwelves, bandit camps and writs, I expect I will have more then enough for my personal taste... those who cook as business may whine about how their job now got a good deal harder, but having come from a long line of TES games where the justice system always was there from the start, I always thought that kind had it far too good...

Motiv books and recipes and so on... true, those I expect will raise in price. If it gets too bad, the developers may have to think about some alternate way of learning motivs... add them to bookshelves? Drop from certain mobs? Show up in treasure chests? Have a tiny chance to drop from deconstructing? All possibilities, time will tell if something along those lines might be needed I guess...

ShadowDisciple

Personally i would rather want for a guard to call reinforcment.

Example: guards sees you..whistles and 5-6 guards spawb nearby abd wreck you

TheShadowScout

I'd like it reactive.
One guard sees you, catches you, and if you come quietly and just pay your fine, that's the end of it.
If you fight... the guard should be killable with some effort (think the patrolling Guards in Cyrodil, that level of power) but upon taking one down, your bounty goes well up and three more spawn to dogpile on the "guardkiller". And so on, three more for every guard that goes down... Until they win, no matter how much carnage it costs. (and we all know, some people WILL bring all their friends and see how many guards they can make die before they get taken down)

ShadowDisciple

TheShadowScout wrote: »

I'd like it reactive.
One guard sees you, catches you, and if you come quietly and just pay your fine, that's the end of it.
If you fight... the guard should be killable with some effort (think the patrolling Guards in Cyrodil, that level of power) but upon taking one down, your bounty goes well up and three more spawn to dogpile on the "guardkiller". And so on, three more for every guard that goes down... Until they win, no matter how much carnage it costs. (and we all know, some people WILL bring all their friends and see how many guards they can make die before they get taken down)

I like it..as long as the law always wins...preety decent strategy i must say..

Dogpiling ftw

MornaBaine

EsORising wrote: »

ShadowDisciple wrote: »

I must say i love the new justice system and im really looking forward to it.

Finally my Nightblade will able to pickpocket and steal. So far he is a thief only in my mind.

Great step forward and im looking forward to further developing the system.

But what bugs me is that a single guard bassically wrecks you...and i killed molag bal..kinda breaks immersion...BUT BUT i dont really see a different way to deal with it.

What do you guys think?

First I like to say I the justice system before i say this...

I THINK the Guard should be the one fighting molag bal. They can probably 10 shot molag bal and they wouldn't even take damage or break a sweat. Why they sending me to kill molag bal when I only have like 15k hp sheshh.

Seriously though, I think guards should be killable. Like excessive HP 20-50x that of a normal character but killable. It just seems pointless to even fight back when they don't even take damage. Where is the fun in that? Probably make the guard stickier (more aggressive) but do less damage would be great too. You know.. so people can watch the spectical of you "trying" to run away then die a bit longer.

Would be cool to see a whole clan killing guards and taking over a town. Maybe even to brag that you took the guard down by 25% or something. Just something other than the unexplainable invunerability of Justice buff that all guards seem to have.

OH ya, Something that should be fixed: One thing that bugs me with guards and npcs is you can leave a pool of dead bodies next to them and they will still flip a coin or look around like they arent standing next to 10 dead bodies.

Unkillable guards ARE annoying. I really wish they'd rethink that. Since the NPCs we need to quest, shop and bank are all unkillable (as they should be) I frankly don't have a problem with criminal gangs overruning a town. Yeah it'll happen a lot at first but as the novelty wears off it'll die down. I feel guards should scale to your level and maybe even be World Boss tough. That would make them challenging and fun. Or maybe initiating a fight with a guard will spawn adds and you'll suddenly find yourself facing a dozen guards in the case where you have murdered someone or your bounty has reached max levels.

I really hate the way guards are CONSTANTLY mouthing off to you and being super rude. I WANT to be able to just walk up and bee-atch slap a guard when they threaten me...and at least stand a CHANCE of getting away with it! C'mon dammit, I'm the hero of all Nirn and defeated Molag Bal! But guards slaughter me????

MornaBaine

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Of course, I also would like the guards more reasonably powered, and just plow lawbreakers under by sheer weight of numbers. Drat... now I have this image stuck in my head, of a player character slammed to the floor, surrounded by half a dozend guards swinging their billy clubs to pummel the former hero gone bad, over and over...

...

I submit that you may be watching too much Youtube. I go to Tamriel to escape the country I live in darn it! Of course, this would probably only happen to my Reguard characters...

ShadowDisciple

Pls ZOS i need slap Function...

Press E - slap npc (bounty 25)

Enodoc

ShadowDisciple wrote: »

Forgot to say lol...u can turn off the justice system as they stated but idk if thats correct

That was misinterpreted; "turning off" the Justice System just means you can't accidentally murder people; they would never let you turn off the system so that you could loot owned containers with no consequences.
But they perhaps do need to add in some more unowned containers.

A problem with guards spawning more guards is that this is an easy way to lag out the system. At least unkillable guards do not cause the server additional strain, as there's only a set number of them (death-stroke lag aside).