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Cost reduction stacking in PvP?

  • sbanned_530978
    sbanned_530978
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    Cut cost reductions in half (more or less)
    @ezareth_ESO‌
    Missed your 2nd posts. Yes I know, regen poll is coming next. Whats the highest magicka regen you can come up with on the pts?
  • IxSTALKERxI
    IxSTALKERxI
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    Cost reduction enchants etc. are needed if you wear heavy armor. Don't nerf cost reduction unless you buff heavy armor passives. :(
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  • Ezareth
    Ezareth
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    krayiss wrote: »
    @ezareth_ESO‌
    Putting 100 points into The Tower (Magician) is all you really need. You will start with 70 -_-
    You dont need the 3600 points, but down the road we will have them and others wont and the passives + stats are so much stronger than any other passive/boost we currently have.
    40,0000 Magicka isnt even that high and you dont need it to get insane cost reduction to spam skills like this.
    What is the 12.3% penalty?

    Was tired on the DR thing, forgot to mention it applies 1st, thanks XD.
    PTS can only handle so many players and their builds are not very group oriented?
    All the solo sorcs might run ball of lightning but if your in a group, there is no point of running away because u might die away from the group.
    Wet paper triple shield stacker lol jk : p

    @krayiss‌

    You'll need 300 cp before you can put 100 into magician.

    The reason you have 40k magicka and not 30k is because you're getting stat points for all those CP.

    Ball of lightning is great in group play as well since it absorbs *all* projectiles cast at targets in its sphere of influence not just the caster. Without the ult generation of streak it is just inferior and can do more harm than good by giving large swaths of people cc immunity after a short disorient.

    The 12.3% penalty is an arbritary number that ZoS created and evidently though was a good way to Nerf every cost reduction ability passive or set bonus in the game. Basically take the sum of your cost reduction and multiply it by .877 and that is what it actually provides. It's a stealth Nerf they haven't mentioned anywhere.
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  • Suru
    Suru
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    krayiss wrote: »
    Suru wrote: »
    Last i checked with cost reduction enchants, did not give you the full reduction. Ex, legendary glyph said 22 cost reduction, i just got 16 or so and got less the more Cost reduction i put on jewelry. Def some diminishing returns. I had light and seducer when I did.

    Your post only applies to sorcs, and if all a sorc is doing is blinking, more power to them, cause its not gonna affect me at all, run away some more. Just think about what you are giving up when you run cost reduction tho. It's fine.

    Cost reduction enchs never gave full value because of passives, its always been that way since day 1 and gave DR.
    You know streak isnt just a skill to run away, its more aggressive if anything and u know it, y are u saying that?
    Again casted it 16 times in a row while not giving up anything.
    The exampled stated, I was not running reduction enchants, was not using seduc/arch, was not using potions.
    My post only applies to sorc, only 15% of it does lol.
    Suru have you been on the PTS at all? :p

    nah, i dont have the connection to download the big patch right now, too laggy atm. You say 15% but the whole purpose of the thread is because some sorc streaked too much, either way I know luvboard one true emp will kill everyone :p
    Edited by Suru on February 15, 2015 7:57AM


    Suru
  • Cinnamon_Spider
    Cinnamon_Spider
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    I love that someone that gets out of fights using mist form has an issue with bolt escape. ;)
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  • Attorneyatlawl
    Attorneyatlawl
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    They should just leave it how it is.

    Agreed. And just to note, throwing on most of the passives/sets/etc the OP listed would result in a terribly gimped build, regardless. Add in that it doesn't stack in the way he outlines, and it's a silly concern :).
    krayiss wrote: »
    Cost reduction has always felt very powerful in PvP.
    Light armor 21%
    Arch mage+seducer 16%
    Worm Cult (ally) 5%
    Expert mage passive 10%
    Unholy Knowledge passive 5%
    Magicka Mastery passive 3%
    3 jewelry enchants
    Now we are getting 15.6% cost reduction from The Tower (Magician)
    75.6% + jewelry enchants

    To go down his list... (remember, the values aren't direct... equipping a -200 magicka cost reduction glyph for example doesn't just chop 200 off of the listed cost in the tooltip, 21% from armor doesn't either, etc. anyway).
    -Light armor = horribly poor damage mitigation in 1.6 and always could be used already for the cost reduction. Thanks for the free 25%+ bonus damage against you. Glass cannons in a patch revision that changes the meta to people being able to use more skills off their bar regardless and raises overall damage output aren't going to go well generally.
    -Archmage+seducer = nice cost reduction, but you need 4 pieces of light armor minimum just to wear arch-mage since the only other piece is a necklace. See above.
    -Worm cult (ally) = Rarely seen in most PVP setups, requires another groupmate to use it for you anyway. Non-factor.
    -Expert mage passive = being changed to bonus damage for each sorc ability on your bar, in 1.6.3, so again a non-factor.
    -Unholy Knowledge passive = Standard run of the mill sorc passive, nothing new. Templars have a similar one, too.
    -Magicka mastery passive = Only works for Bretons, and is a minor bonus.
    -Jewelry enchants = Again nothing new, and not anything that's been particularly buffed in 1.6.
    -The Tower champion system 15.6% passive: That's going to be a good ways' off to grind it all out. And then you're still investing points that could be going into different passives as a tradeoff.

    The only thing that's changed in 1.6 really in any regard on these is spell costs in general being lowered some, and being able to readily access The Tower at around a listed 7% value if desired off of the points you'll have from being VR14 pre-patch (70 champion points divided across the 3 segments, you end up with 23 available in each + 1 more in one of them).

    In short... tl;dr is...

    Cm7ayDs.png

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  • Attorneyatlawl
    Attorneyatlawl
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    krayiss wrote: »
    @ezareth_ESO‌
    Putting 100 points into The Tower (Magician) is all you really need. You will start with 70 -_-

    40,0000 Magicka isnt even that high and you dont need it to get insane cost reduction to spam skills like this.

    No, you won't. You start with 23 for the third of the wheel that The Tower requires. You then would need to grind another 3x 77 points because each one you earn goes in turn (for example segment A, B, and C, you get 1 point in A, then the next is only spendable in B, the next in C, then back to A, next B, and so on).

    40,000 magicka on a Sorc is actually very, very high in 1.6. I'm not honestly sure you can reach it at all if you only use the points you'll begin with on patch day (23 in that section of the wheel which gives +max magicka). Not actually sure if you can by filling the tree with the 3600 points we're granted for testing, but I haven't checked that specifically yet. With using the 23 we'll have on live, I am topping out at around ~33k tops including using a race with the +10% magicka passive, and then throwing all 62 attribute points into magicka, built around armor to max magicka with set bonuses, full magicka glyphs including jewelry with magicka traits. At that point you will die in one or two shots tops to most players in Cyrodii in 1.6 because you end up with just shy of nothing on hitpoints, and your set bonuses aren't well-laid-out generally, not to mention sitting in cloth so you don't have any real passive mitigation against those shots :p.

    -First-Wave Closed Beta Tester of the Psijic Order, aka the 0.016 percent. =P
    Exploits suck. Don't blame just the game, blame the players abusing them!

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  • ghengis_dhan
    ghengis_dhan
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    I think we should follow Skyrim's example and allow up to 100% magicka cost reduction. That's right. Just keep pounding your favorite key until it's a bloody stump.
    "It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

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  • Panda244
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    There isn't an issue here that I can see... If someone stacks cost reduction then they don't do as much damage as someone using spell damage enchants, I for one can attest to this.

    Warlock 5 Set, Engine Guardian 2 Set, Seducer 5 Set. 2 Pieces of Medium Armor, 5 Pieces of Light.

    Jewelry enchants are as follows. Uno Stamina Cost Reduction, Uno Stamina Recovery, Uno Block Cost Reduction.

    My Flame Lash deals something like 420 damage? A Dunmer DK with 130-140 spell damage on live can hit people for 500-650, and vampires for nearly 1k.

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  • Kas
    Kas
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    other: if you stack cost reduction over everythign else, you'll be able to use an infinite amount of abilities ... that all do too little.

    i agree that cost reduction is currently incredibly strong, especially since they are not crippled by softcaps as much as regeneration/damage/etc.
    Since you mention 1.6, the easiest fix is to make other stats just as good. They will now stack beloynd waht used to be a cap
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  • xylena
    xylena
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    Cut cost reductions in half (more or less)
    on the pts i'm able to roll dodge nearly infinitely with as little as 360cp (one tree in each maxed), both as NB and DK

    imo a significant culprit is actually the reduce cost jewelry glyphs... unlike the heavily nerfed regen glyphs which scaled only 3x, the reduce cost glyphs scaled the full 10x... end result is abilities like unstable flame and swallow soul cost a fraction of your regen and have an insane damage to cost ratio... seriously i'm doing 15k damage with a single unstable flame hit+dot for like 300 stamina
    Retired until we break the Tank Meta
  • Ezareth
    Ezareth
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    xylena wrote: »
    on the pts i'm able to roll dodge nearly infinitely with as little as 360cp (one tree in each maxed), both as NB and DK

    imo a significant culprit is actually the reduce cost jewelry glyphs... unlike the heavily nerfed regen glyphs which scaled only 3x, the reduce cost glyphs scaled the full 10x... end result is abilities like unstable flame and swallow soul cost a fraction of your regen and have an insane damage to cost ratio... seriously i'm doing 15k damage with a single unstable flame hit+dot for like 300 stamina

    Yes I have a a feeling that the -200 stamina reduction glyph is going to be a must in Cyrodiil if things go live as they are....especially since Stamina cost reduction was nerfed as well.

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  • Panda244
    Panda244
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    xylena wrote: »
    on the pts i'm able to roll dodge nearly infinitely with as little as 360cp (one tree in each maxed), both as NB and DK

    imo a significant culprit is actually the reduce cost jewelry glyphs... unlike the heavily nerfed regen glyphs which scaled only 3x, the reduce cost glyphs scaled the full 10x... end result is abilities like unstable flame and swallow soul cost a fraction of your regen and have an insane damage to cost ratio... seriously i'm doing 15k damage with a single unstable flame hit+dot for like 300 stamina

    Unstable Flame is a DoT, DoTs always do insane damage if you compare them to cost, and even without cost reduction glyphs you've always been able to spam Unstable Flame, at least as a light armor wearer, and now as a stamina user you can spam it too, thanks to the morph.

    Cost Reduction isn't overpowered as it lowers your damage output or Magic Recovery because it's a different enchant, it's no different than if somebody stacks the hell out of Spell Damage with sets and enchants, and whacks you in the face with a 4k Soul Assault (On Live) sure they can do a lot of damage, and a lot of healing, but they can't do prolonged fights because they've built themselves for burst.

    Cost Reduction stackers have built themselves for prolonged fights and the ability to take on more than one opponent at a time due to their abilities being cheaper and having more time, because of the reduction, to heal. Despite their heals and damage being weaker. Cost Reduction isn't a problem, with the Champion System it might become a problem, so the simple fix would be to nerf the Champion System stats, as that's what caused the problem in the first place.

    Nerfing one enchantment because someone decided to stack it three times, and it turned out to be effective in prolonging their lifespan, despite lowering their healing, damage, recovery rate, etc. It's just... To steal someones' meme from a previous post.
    113645-choked-up-Joffrey-meme-did-you-k8Ov.png
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  • Sallington
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    People need to stop asking to nerf things.
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  • Panda244
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    Sallington wrote: »
    People need to stop asking to nerf things.

    Imperial Racials, Cost Reduction Stacking, Dragonknights, did I miss anything? @Sallington
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  • Jahosefat
    Jahosefat
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    I think people are testing things with 3600 CP and not realizing that everything is god-like with 3600 CP. It's like being an emp.
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  • Panda244
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    Jahosefat wrote: »
    I think people are testing things with 3600 CP and not realizing that everything is god-like with 3600 CP. It's like being an emp.

    Without the +100% to everything... xD
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  • ThatHappyCat
    ThatHappyCat
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    People keep parroting Seducer + Archmage like it's possible, yet AFAIK it isn't because Archmage doesn't come on rings (or weapons/shields). Am I missing something?
  • Panda244
    Panda244
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    People keep parroting Seducer + Archmage like it's possible, yet AFAIK it isn't because Archmage doesn't come on rings (or weapons/shields). Am I missing something?

    5 Set Archmage = 4 Pieces of Armor + 1 Neck
    5 Set Seducer = 3 Pieces of Armor + Sword/Board

    DKs best friend if they have the full Archmage set.
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  • dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO
    Other
    unless your healing you would be useless with your unrealistic build.
    krayiss wrote: »
    @ezareth_ESO‌
    Putting 100 points into The Tower (Magician) is all you really need. You will start with 70 -_-

    40,0000 Magicka isnt even that high and you dont need it to get insane cost reduction to spam skills like this.

    No, you won't. You start with 23 for the third of the wheel that The Tower requires. You then would need to grind another 3x 77 points because each one you earn goes in turn (for example segment A, B, and C, you get 1 point in A, then the next is only spendable in B, the next in C, then back to A, next B, and so on).

    40,000 magicka on a Sorc is actually very, very high in 1.6. I'm not honestly sure you can reach it at all if you only use the points you'll begin with on patch day (23 in that section of the wheel which gives +max magicka). Not actually sure if you can by filling the tree with the 3600 points we're granted for testing, but I haven't checked that specifically yet. With using the 23 we'll have on live, I am topping out at around ~33k tops including using a race with the +10% magicka passive, and then throwing all 62 attribute points into magicka, built around armor to max magicka with set bonuses, full magicka glyphs including jewelry with magicka traits. At that point you will die in one or two shots tops to most players in Cyrodii in 1.6 because you end up with just shy of nothing on hitpoints, and your set bonuses aren't well-laid-out generally, not to mention sitting in cloth so you don't have any real passive mitigation against those shots :p.

    pet builds can go above 40k with the right set up and an active pet, good luck keeping the pet up in a real pvp situation, so that extra 20% from passive+ necropitance isnt realistic.
    but if your not sure, and havent checked yet why are you specifically saying no you wont?
    but 40k is certainly high and going glass cannon
  • Ezareth
    Ezareth
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    unless your healing you would be useless with your unrealistic build.
    krayiss wrote: »
    @ezareth_ESO‌
    Putting 100 points into The Tower (Magician) is all you really need. You will start with 70 -_-

    40,0000 Magicka isnt even that high and you dont need it to get insane cost reduction to spam skills like this.

    No, you won't. You start with 23 for the third of the wheel that The Tower requires. You then would need to grind another 3x 77 points because each one you earn goes in turn (for example segment A, B, and C, you get 1 point in A, then the next is only spendable in B, the next in C, then back to A, next B, and so on).

    40,000 magicka on a Sorc is actually very, very high in 1.6. I'm not honestly sure you can reach it at all if you only use the points you'll begin with on patch day (23 in that section of the wheel which gives +max magicka). Not actually sure if you can by filling the tree with the 3600 points we're granted for testing, but I haven't checked that specifically yet. With using the 23 we'll have on live, I am topping out at around ~33k tops including using a race with the +10% magicka passive, and then throwing all 62 attribute points into magicka, built around armor to max magicka with set bonuses, full magicka glyphs including jewelry with magicka traits. At that point you will die in one or two shots tops to most players in Cyrodii in 1.6 because you end up with just shy of nothing on hitpoints, and your set bonuses aren't well-laid-out generally, not to mention sitting in cloth so you don't have any real passive mitigation against those shots :p.

    pet builds can go above 40k with the right set up and an active pet, good luck keeping the pet up in a real pvp situation, so that extra 20% from passive+ necropitance isnt realistic.
    but if your not sure, and havent checked yet why are you specifically saying no you wont?
    but 40k is certainly high and going glass cannon

    He was saying you wont start with the ability to put 70 CP into a single ability (it has to be split across the 3 constellations.)

    I also agree 40K magicka is unrealistic and if you're using full Necropotence you're limiting your options on cost reduction.


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  • TheLaw
    TheLaw
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    Wow, people will complain about everything these days.
    Edited by TheLaw on February 24, 2015 2:01AM
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  • Panda244
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    TheLaw wrote: »
    Wow, people will complain about everything these days.
    Yes they will Law, yes. They will.
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