Will ESO become too casual?

SteveCampsOut

xMovingTarget wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Yes they should ignore the people who skipped all the content they worked months and months to create simply to reach this mythical end game beast that doesn't exist. You're not playing the game they made, why should they cater to you?

I never read more BS in this forum. I play since headstart, did ALL the quests, all the content in the game. And i am a hardcore end game player. I did skip nothing.


[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

New reply: I obviously wasn't referring to you if you aren't "the people who skipped all the content"!

xMovingTarget

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Yes they should ignore the people who skipped all the content they worked months and months to create simply to reach this mythical end game beast that doesn't exist. You're not playing the game they made, why should they cater to you?

I never read more BS in this forum. I play since headstart, did ALL the quests, all the content in the game. And i am a hardcore end game player. I did skip nothing.


[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

New reply: I obviously wasn't referring to you if you aren't "the people who skipped all the content"!

It still doesnt matter. I might got a bit harsh there. It just shouldnt be your concern about how someone else plays the game

RazielSR

ESO has been always casual. With the freemium model and the coming p2w shop,of course the game will be even more casual. Thats good for zos,not for many of us.

SteveCampsOut

xMovingTarget wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Yes they should ignore the people who skipped all the content they worked months and months to create simply to reach this mythical end game beast that doesn't exist. You're not playing the game they made, why should they cater to you?

I never read more BS in this forum. I play since headstart, did ALL the quests, all the content in the game. And i am a hardcore end game player. I did skip nothing.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

New reply: I obviously wasn't referring to you if you aren't "the people who skipped all the content"!

It still doesnt matter. I might got a bit harsh there. It just shouldnt be your concern about how someone else plays the game

Well obviously it concerns me as much as it does you. We're both lucky or blessed that the other doesn't get to decide what concerns us now aren't we? I wasn't talking about you since you have played the content. I don't see how much clearer I can be about that point. I do think they should ignore the people who are not playing the game that they created. If they don't like what's been given to them to play, why should they be treated more special than those of us who have enjoyed what's been presented to us and have played it? Again, this obviously is not YOU that I'm referring to here.

eliisra

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

Pandering to hardcore PvE and PvP players and ignoring casuals will cause this game to bleed even more subs and cash shop spenders and kill it just as fast.

Please don't ignore that fact that loads of "casuals" also wants endgame PvE content and PvP. Difference is we dont run the highest tier content with detailed builds and spec's to beat some stupid leaderboard record to brag about, but we still want to raid and dungeon crawl.

So tired of people assuming "casual" is some introvert player that only wants to solo PvE with a pet or some dysfunctional build from The Battle Masters Corner. Having real life obligations and limited playtime, doesn't mean I cant appreciate good endgame content or challenges with fun company.

I've seen my fair share of games taking a bad turn and later being pretty much extinct. Always started with the argument that catering to "casuals" or "majority" was necessary. Thing is, it really meant something else. That the game was lacking financial resources to develop quality content, upgrade servers and so on. About to downscale on staff. Only thing they still had money for was crapping out cheap solo quest-lines or re-scaling a dungeon. Established and money making MMO's will never ignore PvP and endgame PvE, for a good reason.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

I think dungeon scaling has helped, there are a lot of players who at v14 just are not good enough to beat vet CoH with challenge, but they can always find a lower player to join and scale it down. It seems they have things in place to make content that is a real challenge which casuals can scale down and complete to experience the content. Will they implement new content with this in mind? who knows.

nerevarine1138

RazielSR wrote: »

ESO has been always casual. With the freemium model and the coming p2w shop,of course the game will be even more casual. Thats good for zos,not for many of us.

Who's "us"?

The hardcore, uber-leet spreadsheet champions only represent a very small fraction of the playerbase. The rest of us have jobs, lives, significant others, etc. that prevent us from playing games full time. And we like having a game that doesn't cater to the elite, as they don't represent a majority of the players.

This doesn't mean that casuals don't want hard content: we do. It doesn't mean that we don't want new endgame content: we do. We just don't want the type of exclusionary play that elitist "hardcore" players favor to overtake the game.

Grapdjan

Eso is the most casual game I've played.

itsBishop

Yeah, the game is already pretty casual. 1.6 and the projected future content schedule suggests it will only become more so with time. I'm taking casual to mean a preference for relatively easily completed solo/small group content rather than purposefully challenging, mechanic driven raid content.

LtCrunch

This thread entertains me. I love seeing these pathetically shallow and closed minded sweeping generalizations about "casual" and "hardcore" players. Too busy trying to insult the other type of player to have any real discussion.

DDuke

Tandor wrote: »

rsiloliveiraub17_ESO wrote: »

Do you guys think the game may become too casual?
For example, instead of releasing a new set of Trials, harder than the ones we have, they would rather release a new zone, with new quests, delves...

As an MMO player, more than a Elder Scrolls player to say this concerns me. I play since launch, I level up fast to get to end game and if there is nothing there, then I have no interest anymore.

What do you guys think? I wanna see perspectives of more casual and more hardcore players.

Players who obsess about rushing to endgame in MMOs should have realised by now that their reward will inevitably be disappointment at the lack of lasting content when they get there. Developers can never release more content in time for them

Vanilla WoW did this, and probably many other less known MMOs.

Less than 3% of player base ever set foot in Naxxramas, and they released BWL before majority of players had cleared MC. You never ran out of things to do (even the top end guilds spent a long time farming for gear after clear).

They did all that, while also adding tons to all other aspects of the game.


ESO's problem?

Instead of 8-10 hour long epic, challenging raids, we get a 5-30 min instance scaled up for 12 players and are expected to farm that for what seems to be atleast a year before more is released.

Valnas

this game is casual city. any content would be better theme park eso.

tplink3r1

To me it is already "too casual".

NukeAllTheThings

Make no mistake, the majority of this game is casual and became even more casual with the large nerf to Vet content in early summer. After that, it was entirely possible for moderately skilled and well geared players to solo every bit of content outside of group dungeons and Trials so let's not pretend the game is going to get dumbed down much more because the bar is already low enough. It is a realistic concern that the challenging content gets dumbed down but there wont be any new content for a loooong time.

Bloodfang

DDuke wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

rsiloliveiraub17_ESO wrote: »

Do you guys think the game may become too casual?
For example, instead of releasing a new set of Trials, harder than the ones we have, they would rather release a new zone, with new quests, delves...

As an MMO player, more than a Elder Scrolls player to say this concerns me. I play since launch, I level up fast to get to end game and if there is nothing there, then I have no interest anymore.

What do you guys think? I wanna see perspectives of more casual and more hardcore players.

Players who obsess about rushing to endgame in MMOs should have realised by now that their reward will inevitably be disappointment at the lack of lasting content when they get there. Developers can never release more content in time for them

Vanilla WoW did this, and probably many other less known MMOs.

Less than 3% of player base ever set foot in Naxxramas, and they released BWL before majority of players had cleared MC. You never ran out of things to do (even the top end guilds spent a long time farming for gear after clear).

They did all that, while also adding tons to all other aspects of the game.


ESO's problem?

Instead of 8-10 hour long epic, challenging raids, we get a 5-30 min instance scaled up for 12 players and are expected to farm that for what seems to be atleast a year before more is released.

Vanilla WoW was actually so broken it wasn't even funny anymore..
They managed to fix most of the issues somewhere at the start of BC expansion (after ~2 years). Oh and MC was bugged like hell for months.

I don't know about how many players stepped into Naxxramas. But 3% seems like a huge number, considering back then there was only 1 difficulty. Supposedly much harder than today.

Right now in Warlords of Draenor you have Highmaul Raid.
WoW has 3 difficulties -> Normal, Heroic, Mythic.
If they really have 10mil players numbers are like this:

• Normal -> Completed by ~675.000 Characters (~6.75% of Playerbase)

• Heroic -> Completed by ~236.000 Characters (~2.36% of Playerbase)

• Mythic -> Completed by 8.760 Characters (~0.09% of Playerbase)

Note: The numbers are probably much lower as they are counting all the characters instead of players. So I'll go ahead and say that about 4-5% of their total playerbase bothers Raiding. Bothers as in they ever step inside a Raid. There can be only 2 explanations about that.

1. Either WoW lost a lot of Subs since November.
2. Or Raid Progression System is dying.

You pick it.

Edit: Fixed Typo.

sagitter

I hope they can satisfy all kind of players, adding new group contents and new solo contents, that is the best thing to do for a major players base.
Happy players = $.

technohic

Is all this senseless everlasting VR levels and soon champion point grind considered casual? I guess I figured casual meant less time in game and not liking a mindless grind. Guess I am hard core since I hate that and would rather be doing challenging end game stuff rather than chase getting there.

Soulshine

"Will" ?? I am pretty sure this game is about as casual as it can get already. If the content delivery continues to be even slower as ZoS has said it coudl be, then I think it is pretty clear what the answer is to the OP...

Joejudas

Trying to please both camps is the best thing....but 1.6 clearly picks one of those camps of people....and drops an avalanche of nerfs on the other one. Lol

JoffyToffy69

From another perspective,
If content is too difficult, players can and will give up. Especially if the completion of X quest, delve etc doesn't produce something of value, such as gear or lack of. The content needs to be 'do-able'. Some games, *cough Destiny* make certain things pretty much impossible.
When the best gear is needed for X dungeon, but it is near impossible to get X gear, *cough Destiny*, end game does become way to difficult, time consuming and unfulfilled for the casual gamer. It is no longer enjoyable.
Thankfully ESO isn't quite that demanding. I can still do vet dungeons without needing gold armor. I can do fine in purple blue or green. I can mix and match different sets and traits.

It's about getting the right balance, which is the difficult task as you can never please everyone.

To add;
When content becomes nearly impossible is when crown shop items might come into play, "assisting" people. Nobody wants that.

JoffyToffy69

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

RazielSR wrote: »

ESO has been always casual. With the freemium model and the coming p2w shop,of course the game will be even more casual. Thats good for zos,not for many of us.

Who's "us"?

The hardcore, uber-leet spreadsheet champions only represent a very small fraction of the playerbase. The rest of us have jobs, lives, significant others, etc. that prevent us from playing games full time. And we like having a game that doesn't cater to the elite, as they don't represent a majority of the players.

This doesn't mean that casuals don't want hard content: we do. It doesn't mean that we don't want new endgame content: we do. We just don't want the type of exclusionary play that elitist "hardcore" players favor to overtake the game.

Hahaha, story of my life! damn relationships!

DDuke wrote: »

ESO's problem?

Instead of 8-10 hour long epic, challenging raids, we get a 5-30 min instance scaled up for 12 players and are expected to farm that for what seems to be atleast a year before more is released.

8 - 10 hours long! That's crazy! That is pretty much an entire workshift. Let alone trying to organize a group for that! So many people would be excluded.
24hr day
-8hr shift (not including travel times)
-8hr dungeon
=8hours reaming.
What about sleep and food!?

I can understand a weekend binge, but I'm sure people would like to play more than once each weekend. Then include other commitments, might be only able to do a weekend every fortnight or even once a month.
That is a real quick way to kill of any interest or commitment.

Robo_Hobo

I would much rather they release new zones with new storylines :P

Ninnghizhidda

ESO is not really like any other MMO out there, maybe this fact makes it "unique". And why so?

I would say quite simply because it offers plenty and good enough content that anyone can enjoy, if they so wish, content that spans all the levels to "end game" (granted, the "Vet levels" do have the problems we all know, but still it is content).

In ESO it is mostly the journey that matters, and not only the destination. Of course, as always, there is that percentage of players who will only ever care about the destination. If you ask me... looking at the single tree and ignoring the whole forest.

ESO doesn't have a real "gear grind", and personally I believe this is a good thing, and I hope it doesn't change. Most MMOs that have "gear grind" more or less force you to just get to the end asap and at all costs, so you can start... grinding. Any leveling before that is just a chore, the story doesn't matter, your character doesn't matter, any gear you get in the process doesn't matter. You might have to go through 50 or 100 levels, and it just doesn't matter. Not when you have to get to level 50-100-10000 so you can start grinding those 2-3-4 dungeons / raids to acquire that flashy gear.

And when you do, and after you have spent a few months doing so, running those places 500 times, and farming resources 1000 hours to better that oh-so-shiny gear... know what? In comes an "update" that renders all that shiny stuff utter garbage. And sets the "new goal" ahead: more grind for the next X months, for the next shinies!

Is that what you wish for ESO? Even so, there will still be hundreds of thousands happy and oblivious "casuals" who will enjoy being level 20 or 30 or whatnot for as long as it takes, because... ESO actually has good content there. Thankfully not all are required to rush with a mighty fire on their rear to "end game" to do what... Trials and whatnot, run them 500 times?

Those who just enjoy doing just that, jolly good stuff indeed. They are also oblivious that they probably represent that glorious 1% of ESO's playerbase. But they do scream louder than the other 99%.

In one thing ZoS are right. We all think we know better than them, and maybe we do in certain areas, but they are running a business for profit. Ask them how well they would do if they don't cater for that "irrelevant" 99%. How would any of us do in any business ignoring the 99% of the customers (or potential customers) to make happy and keep happy that awesome other 1%.

And, in fact, it looks to me that "end gamers" have received quite a lot of content since launch, considering ESO is not a "gear grind" fest, as mentioned earlier. The "useless casuals" have received next to nothing, waiting for small improvements in game play for months and months or anything that would actually affect them in a positive way. But I haven't seen them moaning all day. Maybe because they are too busy enjoying that content that is available to them.

Anyways, those "pro folks" that are too anxious and loud about what the next uber Trial is going to be... I am sure ESO will have something in store. Or... be bold, and try a "classic" Asian grinder or ... that other dinosaur MMO, and you can forget all about levels, lore, immersion and such irrelevant trivialities.

Kragorn

rsiloliveiraub17_ESO wrote: »

After reading a lot of stuff recently this concern started to bug me.

Lets say the console release is a success (and I think it will), we all know that console players have a more casual approach to games like this and they are likely to want different stuff than PC players.

The PS2 players in FFXI (release ONLY on the PS2 in 2002, only later the PC) and those playing FFXIV on PS3/PS4 would like a word with you about your stereotypical thinking and prejudice.

Funkopotamus

Ninnghizhidda wrote: »

And when you do, and after you have spent a few months doing so, running those places 500 times, and farming resources 1000 hours to better that oh-so-shiny gear... know what? In comes an "update" that renders all that shiny stuff utter garbage. And sets the "new goal" ahead: more grind for the next X months, for the next shinies!

.

I understand your point here, but I have to ask. Taking W0W for example that game has survived all these years by doing that very thing you speak of as most if not all major MMO's do..

What then would you throw at customers to keep them playing? What then would be the point of adding DLC if it did not offer new gear and ways to improve your character? Why would anyone buy said DLC? What would keep the masses logged into "Your" game if they reached a peak and had nothing left to work for to make the player feel he is "Getting somewhere"?

There has to be a "Grind" So to speak for the players to feel the connection to their characters and the gaming world..

What would you like in the game instead of a grind? Maybe a way to select your character level and auto select the end game gear you want him to start with?

DeLindsay

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Casuals are the overwhelming majority of the playerbase. And ESO is already fighting the "rush to endgame" model of play. Hopefully, that trend continues, and if the new content is mostly scaled, it would be a step down that path.

Pretty much this. ZoS seems to be striving for a different style of MMO than the "WoW Clone". Besides what does it matter if ESO is more casual than many MMO's, there's room in the World for all varieties of games. ESO will likely end up a niche game like Eve Online is, and that'll be just fine for many of it's Player base.

Ninnghizhidda

Examples of "new content" that we have already heard about and being planned for ESO: The Imperial City, Wrothgar and the like.

I doubt these are all about "new gear" or even 1-2-3 instances (dungeons or Trials). Hopefully, these will offer a lot more than trying to get the "new shinies" or to better that freaking time by 0.01 seconds (yey!).

And, obviously, the new areas / content will be available as DLC. Again, hopefully this will still be the difference between ESO and the rest (yes, even if they have been ultra successful). Content as content, and not just a necessary chore that has to be completed and out of the way (preferably in the least amount of time) so one can get access to the "shinies".

In most other MMOs I am aware of, new content comes in, people take a deep breath and rush through the areas / levels (probably cursing the whole time too) to get to the new "end game" and start grinding the "shinies". This is how it goes... in those games. ESO has been different, and it is one its strongest features.

Mind you I have been playing games of that kind for years, I have done the "grind fest" to exhaustion, but... the actual content, levels and story mattered pretty little. The whole focus was always the "shinies". Can be fun yes, but eventually you grow tired of it. ESO has been refreshing news, because it brought all the lore and capabilities with it, to actually, for once, be able to enjoy the world and the story, not just the "shinies" found in a few instances for whatever the current "end game" might be.

I can not say if ESO will ever manage to truly cater for the "grinders" too, but I suspect the way it has been designed (including the crafting system too), it will never truly and specifically do.

Oh, and it doesn't mean the "casuals" are not remotely interested in "shinies" and "end game" by definition. Probably the contrary, the only difference being the time it takes, the priorities and focus, and perhaps the lack of "obsession" for getting everything to the max in the least amount of time, because... just because.

Audigy

rsiloliveiraub17_ESO wrote: »

After reading a lot of stuff recently this concern started to bug me.

Lets say the console release is a success (and I think it will), we all know that console players have a more casual approach to games like this and they are likely to want different stuff than PC players. That can make ZoS take console opinions over PC because it only makes sense to please their biggest public.

Do you guys think the game may become too casual?
For example, instead of releasing a new set of Trials, harder than the ones we have, they would rather release a new zone, with new quests, delves...

As an MMO player, more than a Elder Scrolls player to say this concerns me. I play since launch, I level up fast to get to end game and if there is nothing there, then I have no interest anymore.

What do you guys think? I wanna see perspectives of more casual and more hardcore players.

Since when are MMOs about Trials, Raiding and other premade stuff?

MMOs are or better put were, always a game for everyone and not just an Elite selection of gamers. I understand that WOW taught you different, that's totally cool, but if you look at Ultima then exploring, leveling new chars, competing in world events was what mattered.

In my opinion ESO is in a pretty poor state right now. We saw no real MMO content since Beta, all we got were arcade mini games such as Trials and Dungeons.

What an MMO however needs are huge zones to explore, dynamic world events and char progression independently of item grinds.

Just look at the numbers, hardly anyone does Trials or Craglorn - most people are either at Cyrodil or level their alts. Even WOW has less than 10% competing in heroic raiding +, its just not what MMO players want.


This by the way doesn't mean that Casuals don't want hard content, but hard in regards of what they have to do in that content and not hard in the matter of finding a group that allows you membership, because this is actually the hardest part about raiding these days.

Finding a group that isn't full of Elitism and understands RL needs and that gaming is just a hobby and not a job.

Kragorn

DeLindsay wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Casuals are the overwhelming majority of the playerbase. And ESO is already fighting the "rush to endgame" model of play. Hopefully, that trend continues, and if the new content is mostly scaled, it would be a step down that path.

Pretty much this. ZoS seems to be striving for a different style of MMO than the "WoW Clone". Besides what does it matter if ESO is more casual than many MMO's, there's room in the World for all varieties of games. ESO will likely end up a niche game like Eve Online is, and that'll be just fine for many of it's Player base.

Given that ZOS' first three content updates were ALL targeted at the minority who do 'raids' and the like, and that one of the delayed updates is also like that, I think ZOS are clearly trying to follow the same model as Blizzard, they just lost 12 months due to the fact that players is huge numbers said they didn't want that kind of content and left, forcing ZOS to waste valuable development and other resources on the Store.

NadiusMaximus

Once the best gear became drop only instead of craft able, like ZOS said would never happen, I thought great, now I'll have to do the same delve 150 times to get the set I want. Once that happened the game lost the ElderScrolls feel and became like any other mmo.
I wish they had kept the veteran difficulty the same as at release and just gave us better rewards for finishing quest lines. I liked the idea of choosing your reward at the end of finishing a realms main line instead I re I've crap that was sold or melted down to save space.
One guild member has done nothing else but the same trial trying to get a dropped piece, rng is against him and he is going insane doing the same crap over and over. I ran one with him and it's like, OK watch this room, it has five guys, one there two there are archers, two healers, go in and to the left, take three steps... I mean he's memorized it to the point he's a bott almost. What fun is that? Make it so we just choose our reward when completing endgame content and make it bound on pickup to stop the just selling it.

You can also kiss new content good bye. How often does Skyrim get new expansions? Once a year maybe? I think that is how it's going to be. One new zone every year, but small crown store additions every two months. They already said nothing else is going to be added once the consoles come out, until almost next year. They said long time ago that new content would come out every, what 6 weeks? All we got were bug fixes and buff/nerffs, then Craglorn. Nothing since then though. I don't think people think that fixes equal content, and shouldn't.
If I had a cafe, the meals are the content the of the menu. If I advertise new menu items, but really it's the same stuff with salt and pepper added, I'm gonna have angry customers after a while.