Dear ZOS - your players are frustrated with 1.6, and here's why.

Seraphyel

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

You guys just dont get it. ZOS doesnt care about any of us who are already here. They only care about new people. Get the new people to come in buy a box spend a few crowns and then leave before they hit end game. Thats how pay to win b2p games work.

That's unfortunately the truth.

The PC playerbase is worthless. The PC playerbase is small and unprofitable. That's why everything is focused on the console launch - it's the last chance for Zenimax to turn the major flop that ESO is / was into something finally successful. That's why PC playerbase is left behind when it comes to content, that's why PC playerbase is left behind when it comes to all of these changes.

There is one thing Zenimax cares about and that's the console launch + console playerbases. They ruined the PC launch and the PC version and it's too late to "repair" the damage they did with launching sub-ESO as it was last April.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Seraphyel wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

You guys just dont get it. ZOS doesnt care about any of us who are already here. They only care about new people. Get the new people to come in buy a box spend a few crowns and then leave before they hit end game. Thats how pay to win b2p games work.

That's unfortunately the truth.

The PC playerbase is worthless. The PC playerbase is small and unprofitable. That's why everything is focused on the console launch - it's the last chance for Zenimax to turn the major flop that ESO is / was into something finally successful. That's why PC playerbase is left behind when it comes to content, that's why PC playerbase is left behind when it comes to all of these changes.

There is one thing Zenimax cares about and that's the console launch + console playerbases. They ruined the PC launch and the PC version and it's too late to "repair" the damage they did with launching sub-ESO as it was last April.

If the "relaunch" in March is a disaster than the PC version of this game is history.

bowmanz607

How dare ZOS try and bring new people into the game! What Jerks! Come on. Ofcourse there are problems that need to be worked out. Thats why it is on the PTS. I do get it. I dont think you get it. Again, such a fundamental change to the game is going to delay content. tamerial unlimited brings more players to the game while not ruining the experience for people who sub. Means that groups will be easier to find. Means not having to hope to get into a trial if your not in a guild (or one that runs trials all the time). Means a better economy. Means more diversity. "DOesnt care" really? How dare them incorporate a whole new system that we asked for.

bowmanz607

As for the console argument. UMMMM they delayed console for the PC user! How dare them get the game prepped for the launch on console. HEllo theis is elder scrolls console has a huge player base. They are leaving us behind. they left console behind and are trying to get it out.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

bowmanz607 wrote: »

How dare ZOS try and bring new people into the game! What Jerks! Come on. Ofcourse there are problems that need to be worked out. Thats why it is on the PTS. I do get it. I dont think you get it. Again, such a fundamental change to the game is going to delay content. tamerial unlimited brings more players to the game while not ruining the experience for people who sub. Means that groups will be easier to find. Means not having to hope to get into a trial if your not in a guild (or one that runs trials all the time). Means a better economy. Means more diversity. "DOesnt care" really? How dare them incorporate a whole new system that we asked for.

I was told this same line by people at LOTRO when it went f2p. At the time they had anywhere from 400-500k subs. Now they have less than 80k people including the free ones. The economy tanked. Noone can find groups for anything but end game content. The game turned pay to win about 1 year after the change. Now they sell end game gear in the store. "Convenience".

Fact is none of what you are saying will come true. The focus will be on people who wont bother with the game more than a couple months. You wont be able to find groups easier. The economy wont improve. There will be no more diversity. Only people who want something for nothing.

bowmanz607

"The fact is" that this is a different game and a different company. I love how people want to compare it other MMOs when saying why it will tank, but turn around and say its not like other MMOs and that why it will tank. Damn people have to make up your mind. Fact is, ZOS is trying new techniques and trying to bring innovation to the MMO world. No its not like other MMOs. No its not like other TES games. It is a new breed and will take the right combination to perfect. Whats the old saying "rome wasnt built in a day." People want to say this is the kind of mentality ZOS feeds off. Good, cause it is that type of mentality that will allow this game to flourish to what it can be. You dont think ZOS knows how other MMOs have flopped and why. Dont you think they will avoid that to all ends cause in the end making a quick buck on the front end will not be the same as the amount of money you can make in the long run. But, alas, people always need to compare things and therefore place these negative thoughts in their own heads from past experiences.

Kragorn

Fatalyis wrote: »

I like 1.6 for the most part....it just feels better....but I definitely agree that there is a LOT of work in store before this thing can go live. I'm okay with that...

The beta test taught those playing it that ZOS are prefectly capable of releasing stuff that's patently broken and then ignoring the issues for months .. don't rely on the fact they will deal with any of the issues you're alluding to here.

bowmanz607

the beta test also showed how much that ZOS does listen to the community. But of course like so many you focus in all the negatives and those negatives definitely do not outweigh the positives.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

bowmanz607 wrote: »

"The fact is" that this is a different game and a different company. I love how people want to compare it other MMOs when saying why it will tank, but turn around and say its not like other MMOs and that why it will tank. Damn people have to make up your mind. Fact is, ZOS is trying new techniques and trying to bring innovation to the MMO world. No its not like other MMOs. No its not like other TES games. It is a new breed and will take the right combination to perfect. Whats the old saying "rome wasnt built in a day." People want to say this is the kind of mentality ZOS feeds off. Good, cause it is that type of mentality that will allow this game to flourish to what it can be. You dont think ZOS knows how other MMOs have flopped and why. Dont you think they will avoid that to all ends cause in the end making a quick buck on the front end will not be the same as the amount of money you can make in the long run. But, alas, people always need to compare things and therefore place these negative thoughts in their own heads from past experiences.

Ya if someone screws you over you should never remember that and let them do it to you again. Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it or something like that eh? You are very naive if you think this game wont do the same thing as all the other pay to win b2p or f2p games.

bowmanz607

there are no lessons to be learned in history. We study history to see we are where we are. "men make their own histories, but they do not do so in circumstances o their choosing but that given and transmitted from the past."
Translation: ZOS cant help that other games tanked and left a sour taste in people mouths. However, they can change the future. Its not about forgetting history but embracing it and moveing forward. I think what is naive is the fact that ZOS is getting forced onto the same platform as others. Just cause others screwed up doesnt mean they will. With that type of mentality you might as well stop playing games. Just cause one game failed doesnt mean that others will.

Kragorn

bowmanz607 wrote: »

the beta test also showed how much that ZOS does listen to the community. But of course like so many you focus in all the negatives and those negatives definitely do not outweigh the positives.

My focus was pointing out that history tells us no matter how bad something may be pre-release ZOS have shown a willingness to ignore it, so that commenter I was replying to needs to keep a sense of reality here, things he says need a LOT of work on may well not get that work done before release.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

bowmanz607 wrote: »

there are no lessons to be learned in history. We study history to see we are where we are. "men make their own histories, but they do not do so in circumstances o their choosing but that given and transmitted from the past."
Translation: ZOS cant help that other games tanked and left a sour taste in people mouths. However, they can change the future. Its not about forgetting history but embracing it and moveing forward. I think what is naive is the fact that ZOS is getting forced onto the same platform as others. Just cause others screwed up doesnt mean they will. With that type of mentality you might as well stop playing games. Just cause one game failed doesnt mean that others will.

Failed? Those games are doing exactly what they planned. Less players. less employees. Less content. The people hopefully leave before they complete the level 1-50 content. So why put out end game stuff when your focus is on keeping people for only a couple months then letting them move on.

I dont think LOTRO would consider it a failure from the financial side. SWTOR also from a financial standpoint is doing well but I quit after it went f2p. Since ESO is going to be buy to play I might as well stick around until the f2p switch happens. It is inevitable eventually they will just give you the client to get you to try it.

When that happens then I'll leave. Until then I'll keep paying the sub.

Seraphyel

bowmanz607 wrote: »

How dare ZOS try and bring new people into the game! What Jerks!

It's not about bringing new people into the game, it's about neglecting the ones that are playing since launch.

bowmanz607 wrote: »

As for the console argument. UMMMM they delayed console for the PC user! How dare them get the game prepped for the launch on console. HEllo theis is elder scrolls console has a huge player base. They are leaving us behind. they left console behind and are trying to get it out.

Yeah, everybody thought ES PC has a huge playerbase, where is it? It's not existing.

They planned the launch last June... and the new launch is June '15 - 1 year later. Yeah, that's how things get handled.

bowmanz607

It's is not uncommon for games to delay a launch it happens. Most pc users left because they realized it wasn't wow. That this mmo is different then others. I personally believe that the console will have a larger player base cause it is a TED game

Sprinkles28

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

You guys just dont get it. ZOS doesnt care about any of us who are already here. They only care about new people. Get the new people to come in buy a box spend a few crowns and then leave before they hit end game. Thats how pay to win b2p games work.

^^^ This ^^^

They don't care about loyalty, balance, new content, or any of that. They care about money. They will sell XP boost so those that stay will pay to get CP faster and they care about selling new copies on console.

I don't see ZOS changing or "fixing" anything with this patch before it goes live. Maybe some bugs here and there and that's it. For example, there are several massive threads about the inflated numbers crap and not one response from ZOS. They don't care. Plain and simple.

Accept it and try to have fun anyway or be prepared to be disappointed.

Seraphyel

Yeah... that's what we should do.

NewBlacksmurf

There is a lot of good with 1.6 but I agree with the point about VR needing to be removed.

eventide03b14a_ESO

bowmanz607 wrote: »

"The fact is" that this is a different game and a different company. I love how people want to compare it other MMOs when saying why it will tank, but turn around and say its not like other MMOs and that why it will tank. Damn people have to make up your mind. Fact is, ZOS is trying new techniques and trying to bring innovation to the MMO world. No its not like other MMOs. No its not like other TES games. It is a new breed and will take the right combination to perfect. Whats the old saying "rome wasnt built in a day." People want to say this is the kind of mentality ZOS feeds off. Good, cause it is that type of mentality that will allow this game to flourish to what it can be. You dont think ZOS knows how other MMOs have flopped and why. Dont you think they will avoid that to all ends cause in the end making a quick buck on the front end will not be the same as the amount of money you can make in the long run. But, alas, people always need to compare things and therefore place these negative thoughts in their own heads from past experiences.

New techniques? What exactly makes this game unique?

eventide03b14a_ESO

bowmanz607 wrote: »

the beta test also showed how much that ZOS does listen to the community. But of course like so many you focus in all the negatives and those negatives definitely do not outweigh the positives.

Listen to us? By taking away the minimap? I actually like having it.

eventide03b14a_ESO

bowmanz607 wrote: »

It's is not uncommon for games to delay a launch it happens. Most pc users left because they realized it wasn't wow. That this mmo is different then others. I personally believe that the console will have a larger player base cause it is a TED game

No, most people left because they realized it wasn't an Elder Scrolls game. What do you think is going to happen when the console players also realize it's not an elder scrolls game? Skyrim sold 20,270,000 copies on Xbox alone. Those people are going to expect Skryim Online™ and they are going to be VERY disappointed.

http://www.statisticbrain.com/skyrim-the-elder-scrolls-v-statistics/

trimsic_ESO

kaer426 wrote: »

I think the OP makes many valid points, I hear the same echos in many a teamspeak.
Mainly being : no one wants to grind to get back what we already have.

In a PVP perspective, this is making no sense. Everyone is at the same level, and therefore we are not in a need to grind to get back to where we were before the CS.

In a PVE perspective, I don't know. If the trials, the pledges, or the PVE contents in general is much more difficult than it was before the CS, then I can understand the frustration. However, this issue can be solved via some fine tuning, and in that case everyone is at the same level, and there is no reason to grind either.

Xexpo

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

kaer426 wrote: »

I think the OP makes many valid points, I hear the same echos in many a teamspeak.
Mainly being : no one wants to grind to get back what we already have.

In a PVP perspective, this is making no sense. Everyone is at the same level, and therefore we are not in a need to grind to get back to where we were before the CS.

In a PVE perspective, I don't know. If the trials, the pledges, or the PVE contents in general is much more difficult than it was before the CS, then I can understand the frustration. However, this issue can be solved via some fine tuning, and in that case everyone is at the same level, and there is no reason to grind either.

from my point of view...
What we have now, and what many players enjoy, is flexibility in pvp and pve.
I can simply change gear and my skill bars, and be viable for any role or situation. That is because I played the game enough to optimize those skills and earn that gear.
1.6 takes the flexibility we earned away until we grind many, many more champion points, or constantly re-spec your small amount of CP, or grind out some role specific alts before 2.0 1.6 is launched.

C0pp3rhead

Hey folks, thanks for the responses, and I'm glad to see a lively converstation. I would like to clarify that I think there's alot to appreciate in 1.6. The justice system is awesome, Templar adjustments are mostly great, and the provisioning overhaul was much needed.

My primary gripe is this: ZOS is changing alot that they don't need to change and isn't broken. Most importantly, many of these changes come without justification. I just think its too much all at once, and they have complicated the process of testing in a controlled environment.

@bowmanz607‌
I disagree with you that this game is taking novel approaches to the MMO genre. Simplistic leveling mechanics & skill trees, CP seems very similar to WoW's talent tree imo, animation cancelling (which does exist in many MMO's), vapid NPC dialogue, and formulaic & tired quests just to name a few.
I also heartily disagree that this game isn't WoW. To be fair, WoW did alot right, it's a successful franchise, and they pioneered much of what MMORPG's are today. However, the progressively leveled zones, combat mechanics, questing, character progression, and grinding are very similar to WoW, and this is not what we wanted nor expected from an ES game. I recognize almost nothing from previous titles in this series, except the environments and some lore. I think many left and will leave from console because they found it was too much like WoW. @eventide03b14a_ESO‌ hit the nail on the head

Vordae wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

kaer426 wrote: »

I think the OP makes many valid points, I hear the same echos in many a teamspeak.
Mainly being : no one wants to grind to get back what we already have.

I don't get the "now we have to grind to get back to the same level" argument tbh. Why would that remain your frame of reference once 1.6 hits?

Ishammael wrote: »

2. The high-end PvP players are looking at an incredible CP grind. In PvP you have to have (near) best stats and gear to be competitive.

............in the current system. Again. Why keep 1.5 as a frame of reference? Especially in PvP, shouldn't all that matters be how you fare compared to other players in 1.6 rather than yourself in a past version of the game?

Don't get me wrong, there are legit doubts about 1.6 concerning the new class and skill balance, but people really need to let go of measuring everything against 1.5.

They are not talking about little tweaks in power. There are talking about not being able to do whole section of content that they previously had on farm status. It's like saying "Hey everyone! We are not going to put out new content for a while so we are just going to nerf everyone in the whole game so nobody can do the current content anymore. Then you guys can spend a few months working your way back up to the content you have already beaten a 1000 times and start doing that again. After all that time we might have new content. Have fun."

This is another of my points - I am being forced to struggle through existing (and already completed x100) content simply because ZOS doesn't intend to put out more content till June. Small tweaks to balance are awesome. CP on top of my current skills + time to adjust would be awesome.

As to why we are comparing to 1.5.8, this is a test server - meaning we should be able to test out new content/systems in a controlled setting. Many players are finding their PvE builds less effective. As things stand, it is next to impossible to figure out the cause and provide feedback. Am I less effective because I have yet to adapt to the new skills & buff system? Is the new buff system unworkable? Is my dps now lower comparatively? If so, is it a problem? Have the bosses been buffed or their stats merely inflated? If so, by how much and is it a problem?

These are the questions we're trying to ask and can't answer. I feel like there's some sleight of hand being pulled on my character's effectiveness because it is far too difficult to isolate what has changed. More importantly, I cannot provide much PvE because it is difficult to know whether the problem is adaptation or systemic imbalance.

As for PvP, some gear that was good for PvP is no longer tenable nor desirable, and the process of acquiring most gear will be significantly more difficult if not next to impossible.

Fatalyis

Kragorn wrote: »

Fatalyis wrote: »

I like 1.6 for the most part....it just feels better....but I definitely agree that there is a LOT of work in store before this thing can go live. I'm okay with that...

The beta test taught those playing it that ZOS are prefectly capable of releasing stuff that's patently broken and then ignoring the issues for months .. don't rely on the fact they will deal with any of the issues you're alluding to here.

Trust me, I know....I was part of the Psijic test team. I've had my fair share of rants and raves, and I have a total love/hate relationship with ESO. That being said, though, I'm always holding out hope. The PVP is damn enjoyable after a hard days work, and I'd like to see it continue to be enjoyable. I can adapt to damn near anything....I've had to adapt to a lot in this game...and if I need to continue to adapt, I will.

Locke_ESO

The two things that bug me most in 1.6 are the ridiculous 1X,XXX number systems for everything and adding the Champion system in when there is no new content.

People have a very valid point when they say that it makes no sense to change the end game progression system and make it require so much XP but then why are they not releasing anything new for people to xp on. What are people supposed to do exactly? Quests? We've mostly done them all and many of them provide poor xp anyway (something else that needs fixing). Grind? How many people will fit into the Spellscar area... not hundreds and someone was saying it's been nerfed anyway. PvP? How many years will that take. Trials and Dungeons? They give nowhere near enough xp per run and it's the same endgame content we've been doing for months and months and repeating day after day for Undaunted points. If they want to re-balance the content then fine but the timing is really bad with no new content coming. This isn't a single player RPG.

Everything else is something they can balance.

Garwulf

C0pp3rhead wrote: »

Former Emperors running around Cyrodiil are tired of farming AP just to remain on the leaderboards and get rewards they already have. They will not see a level playing field or a challenging end-game. They will see a grind for CP. Many will quit. There is no enjoyment in grinding along in the hopes that new content will become available in June.

Thanks for the laugh. Most Emperors have got there by Farming. You can get there largely by rebuilding Keeps. i.e. You do not become an Emperor because you are a leader but rather an AP farmer. You see all those former AP farmers running around with I am a loser (Former Emperor) above their head.
Meanwhile the highest military Rank has almost been Farmed into fruition. Red are currently AP farming to get the first person in the game to Grand Overlord.

Dracane

I am actually very happy with 1.6 .
It feels much better than 1.5 in my opinion. I like it as it is at the moment (only my opinion)

frould

I like 1.6, I'm not really care about balance or how to grind end game content. If they still develop my feeling of Elder Scrolls games.

trimsic_ESO

Dracane wrote: »

I am actually very happy with 1.6 .
It feels much better than 1.5 in my opinion. I like it as it is at the moment (only my opinion)

I'm very happy with the 1.6 too. It's much more enjoyable than the previous releases of ESO, and actually, I would have preferred if ESO had been delayed and had been released with the CS, no VR, the phasing fixed, the quests fixed, and the PVP version of the justice system in place. It would have been such a great game, and it would have met another fate.

Xsorus

There are problems with 1.6, but nothing that can't be fixed. Some of you need to quit because your whining is getting silly. If you are unhappy don't play, it's that simple