1.6 balance issue - damage looks out of control

Derra

DeLindsay wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

58k magicka O.o how the......

Necropetence set is the easiest way. Also current Emperor gets what, +100% Stamina/Magicka/Health via the Emperor Passive? I made a Template Sorc on PTS and could easily reach 30K as a non-Emp in Template gear while still having over 18K Health (non-Emp, standing in Cyro). Didn't you and I have this conversation Gorthax about how OP Necro gear might be without soft caps?

In terms of damage the Necropotence set is not the end all be all set. Some skills scale better with magica some better with spellpower. However necropotence puts you at a disadvantage if you want to play without those clunky pets (you can´t).
Destruction Mastery and Martial Knowledge offer equal Damage output without the requirement of a pet (yeah i´ve tested).Martial is a little more potent on the offense while Destruction will provides slightly higher shields.

The problem most people do not realize by now is that a stamina build min-maxed in a similar fashion will ravage a magica build even with shields (wait for a 2h build with 2800 weapon dmg). Its not even close most of the time. Arguably this works best with Nightblades and DKs. Templars seem to be lacking in that regard.

DeLindsay

Derra wrote: »

In terms of damage the Necropotence set is not the end all be all set. Some skills scale better with magica some better with spellpower. However necropotence puts you at a disadvantage if you want to play without those clunky pets (you can´t).
Destruction Mastery and Martial Knowledge offer equal Damage output without the requirement of a pet (yeah i´ve tested).Martial is a little more potent on the offense while Destruction will provides slightly higher shields.

I made no comment on how viable a Necro build is, only that it is one way in which to reach absurd Magicka pool numbers, and to also be Emperor. Ofc Necro gear is crap if you want high DPS, but that wasn't why I replied, @Gorthax asked how someone reached 58K Magicka.

Derra

Nacario wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Nacario wrote: »

Damage is high but so is the shield stacking, and currently it > damage.

Tell me more about this Shield Stacking for NB.
Don´t suggest Healing Ward, it´s too late if you reach 30%.

Yeah Im having the same issues on my NB bow. Any competent player negates my 2nd or 3rd lethal arrow and just shield stacks from there. My damage is high, but negated by shield stacking.

And what do you suggest people in light armor do instead of casting shields? Eat two leathal arrows die and give you those juicy ap?

Exstazik

Want to see Sorc_emperator dmg with 2800+ spell dmg.

Soulac

Derra wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Nacario wrote: »

Damage is high but so is the shield stacking, and currently it > damage.

Tell me more about this Shield Stacking for NB.
Don´t suggest Healing Ward, it´s too late if you reach 30%.

@Soulac Maybe ask a good nb for help.
The builds giving you trouble should not be magica based but some guy with a 2h heavy attacking for 10k dmg - thats where nb has absolutely no defense.

Also 6k noncrit for EDIT: Veiled Strike (hidden blade was not was i meant) seems fine from my perspective.

I don't think you understood what I meant.
NB is not able to shield stack at all, especially not against Stamina Builds.
A 2handed destroys ward with a single attack and ignores Harness, my only defense is healing and movement.

Every other class got an additional Shield which absorbs every kind of dmg.

And that's why I asked to tell me more about NB Shield stacking

I don't need any help with NB, but you probably know it better.

Derra

Soulac wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Nacario wrote: »

Damage is high but so is the shield stacking, and currently it > damage.

Tell me more about this Shield Stacking for NB.
Don´t suggest Healing Ward, it´s too late if you reach 30%.

@Soulac Maybe ask a good nb for help.
The builds giving you trouble should not be magica based but some guy with a 2h heavy attacking for 10k dmg - thats where nb has absolutely no defense.

Also 6k noncrit for EDIT: Veiled Strike (hidden blade was not was i meant) seems fine from my perspective.

I don't think you understood what I meant.
NB is not able to shield stack at all, especially not against Stamina Builds.
A 2handed destroys ward with a single attack and ignores Harness, my only defense is healing and movement.

Every other class got an additional Shield which absorbs every kind of dmg.

I don't need any help with NB, but you probably know it better.

Yeah i see you all the time running around complaining how overpowered shield stacking sorcs are.
Yet the build that kill you are (or should be) 2h stam users.
So everything is op but magica nbs?

Soulac

Derra wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Nacario wrote: »

Damage is high but so is the shield stacking, and currently it > damage.

Tell me more about this Shield Stacking for NB.
Don´t suggest Healing Ward, it´s too late if you reach 30%.

@Soulac Maybe ask a good nb for help.
The builds giving you trouble should not be magica based but some guy with a 2h heavy attacking for 10k dmg - thats where nb has absolutely no defense.

Also 6k noncrit for EDIT: Veiled Strike (hidden blade was not was i meant) seems fine from my perspective.

I don't think you understood what I meant.
NB is not able to shield stack at all, especially not against Stamina Builds.
A 2handed destroys ward with a single attack and ignores Harness, my only defense is healing and movement.

Every other class got an additional Shield which absorbs every kind of dmg.

I don't need any help with NB, but you probably know it better.

Yeah i see you all the time running around complaining how overpowered shield stacking sorcs are.
Yet the build that kill you are (or should be) 2h stam users.
So everything is op but magica nbs?

I don't remember anything about me getting killed by stam users.
Also I complained at Shield stacking at all, not only your poor sorc.
The only problems with 1.6 are this kind of shieldstacking and the missing advantage for going Magicka Melee, just my opinion about it.

Solanum

This thread made me chuckle, I had a WTF moment as well after poking Nerfsorc. (before realizing it's an emperor)

That said, Sorcerers do seem in a better state then the other classes.

Derra

Soulac wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Nacario wrote: »

Damage is high but so is the shield stacking, and currently it > damage.

Tell me more about this Shield Stacking for NB.
Don´t suggest Healing Ward, it´s too late if you reach 30%.

@Soulac Maybe ask a good nb for help.
The builds giving you trouble should not be magica based but some guy with a 2h heavy attacking for 10k dmg - thats where nb has absolutely no defense.

Also 6k noncrit for EDIT: Veiled Strike (hidden blade was not was i meant) seems fine from my perspective.

I don't think you understood what I meant.
NB is not able to shield stack at all, especially not against Stamina Builds.
A 2handed destroys ward with a single attack and ignores Harness, my only defense is healing and movement.

Every other class got an additional Shield which absorbs every kind of dmg.

I don't need any help with NB, but you probably know it better.

Yeah i see you all the time running around complaining how overpowered shield stacking sorcs are.
Yet the build that kill you are (or should be) 2h stam users.
So everything is op but magica nbs?

I don't remember anything about me getting killed by stam users.
Also I complained at Shield stacking at all, not only your poor sorc.
The only problems with 1.6 are this kind of shieldstacking and the missing advantage for going Magicka Melee, just my opinion about it.

Well with the dmg currently in the game shields and dodgeroll are the only things keeping you alive as a dps. Are you looking for an instagib fest?

Magica melee is kind of competetive if build right (apart from NB against stam users). I don´t think there should be an inherent advantage by choosing a spec.

Soulac

Derra wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Nacario wrote: »

Damage is high but so is the shield stacking, and currently it > damage.

Tell me more about this Shield Stacking for NB.
Don´t suggest Healing Ward, it´s too late if you reach 30%.

@Soulac Maybe ask a good nb for help.
The builds giving you trouble should not be magica based but some guy with a 2h heavy attacking for 10k dmg - thats where nb has absolutely no defense.

Also 6k noncrit for EDIT: Veiled Strike (hidden blade was not was i meant) seems fine from my perspective.

I don't think you understood what I meant.
NB is not able to shield stack at all, especially not against Stamina Builds.
A 2handed destroys ward with a single attack and ignores Harness, my only defense is healing and movement.

Every other class got an additional Shield which absorbs every kind of dmg.

I don't need any help with NB, but you probably know it better.

Yeah i see you all the time running around complaining how overpowered shield stacking sorcs are.
Yet the build that kill you are (or should be) 2h stam users.
So everything is op but magica nbs?

I don't remember anything about me getting killed by stam users.
Also I complained at Shield stacking at all, not only your poor sorc.
The only problems with 1.6 are this kind of shieldstacking and the missing advantage for going Magicka Melee, just my opinion about it.

Well with the dmg currently in the game shields and dodgeroll are the only things keeping you alive as a dps. Are you looking for an instagib fest?

Magica melee is kind of competetive if build right (apart from NB against stam users). I don´t think there should be an inherent advantage by choosing a spec.

You deal the same dmg on range, why should anyone go to melee then? The incoming dmg in melee is much bigger compared to range, it's not balanced.
Of course you can still kill ppl with a melee build, but a range build does the exact same thing and is 'easier' to play.

Gargragrond

Derra wrote: »

Magica melee is kind of competetive if build right (apart from NB against stam users). I don´t think there should be an inherent advantage by choosing a spec.

I'm not sure how - maybe someone has some ideas? I tried magicka melee as a dk, but it fails badly as the DOT's do not seem to affect shields anymore, and they are the main source of damage.
Burning through a single shield with a flame whip (the heaviest single hitter that does around 3k/hit) burns over half of the magicka pool. If someone is careful enough to have resources to cast shield once in ~10 seconds or so, there's nothing i can do.

Derra

Soulac wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Nacario wrote: »

Damage is high but so is the shield stacking, and currently it > damage.

Tell me more about this Shield Stacking for NB.
Don´t suggest Healing Ward, it´s too late if you reach 30%.

@Soulac Maybe ask a good nb for help.
The builds giving you trouble should not be magica based but some guy with a 2h heavy attacking for 10k dmg - thats where nb has absolutely no defense.

Also 6k noncrit for EDIT: Veiled Strike (hidden blade was not was i meant) seems fine from my perspective.

I don't think you understood what I meant.
NB is not able to shield stack at all, especially not against Stamina Builds.
A 2handed destroys ward with a single attack and ignores Harness, my only defense is healing and movement.

Every other class got an additional Shield which absorbs every kind of dmg.

I don't need any help with NB, but you probably know it better.

Yeah i see you all the time running around complaining how overpowered shield stacking sorcs are.
Yet the build that kill you are (or should be) 2h stam users.
So everything is op but magica nbs?

I don't remember anything about me getting killed by stam users.
Also I complained at Shield stacking at all, not only your poor sorc.
The only problems with 1.6 are this kind of shieldstacking and the missing advantage for going Magicka Melee, just my opinion about it.

Well with the dmg currently in the game shields and dodgeroll are the only things keeping you alive as a dps. Are you looking for an instagib fest?

Magica melee is kind of competetive if build right (apart from NB against stam users). I don´t think there should be an inherent advantage by choosing a spec.

You deal the same dmg on range, why should anyone go to melee then? The incoming dmg in melee is much bigger compared to range, it's not balanced.
Of course you can still kill ppl with a melee build, but a range build does the exact same thing and is 'easier' to play.

Thats the eternal range vs melee war fought in every mmo. Its only a problem in zergs or group fights with low numbers of melee players because the dmg does not spread.
No way to balance that without overpowering melee on other situations.

Gargragrond wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Magica melee is kind of competetive if build right (apart from NB against stam users). I don´t think there should be an inherent advantage by choosing a spec.

I'm not sure how - maybe someone has some ideas? I tried magicka melee as a dk, but it fails badly as the DOT's do not seem to affect shields anymore, and they are the main source of damage.
Burning through a single shield with a flame whip (the heaviest single hitter that does around 3k/hit) burns over half of the magicka pool. If someone is careful enough to have resources to cast shield once in ~10 seconds or so, there's nothing i can do.

I will whisper you on pts later.

Tankqull

Soulac wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Nacario wrote: »

Damage is high but so is the shield stacking, and currently it > damage.

Tell me more about this Shield Stacking for NB.
Don´t suggest Healing Ward, it´s too late if you reach 30%.

@Soulac Maybe ask a good nb for help.
The builds giving you trouble should not be magica based but some guy with a 2h heavy attacking for 10k dmg - thats where nb has absolutely no defense.

Also 6k noncrit for EDIT: Veiled Strike (hidden blade was not was i meant) seems fine from my perspective.

I don't think you understood what I meant.
NB is not able to shield stack at all, especially not against Stamina Builds.
A 2handed destroys ward with a single attack and ignores Harness, my only defense is healing and movement.

Every other class got an additional Shield which absorbs every kind of dmg.

And that's why I asked to tell me more about NB Shield stacking

I don't need any help with NB, but you probably know it better.

you too its called "dampen magic". against the tooltip it does absorb stamina attacks. if CLS is trust worthy.

Gargragrond wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Magica melee is kind of competetive if build right (apart from NB against stam users). I don´t think there should be an inherent advantage by choosing a spec.

I'm not sure how - maybe someone has some ideas? I tried magicka melee as a dk, but it fails badly as the DOT's do not seem to affect shields anymore, and they are the main source of damage.
Burning through a single shield with a flame whip (the heaviest single hitter that does around 3k/hit) burns over half of the magicka pool. If someone is careful enough to have resources to cast shield once in ~10 seconds or so, there's nothing i can do.

some DK dot morphs are stmina based now just as a hint...

but the dmg is out of controll globaly 50% reduction alongside a efficency reduction of shields would do great to the game.

Gorthax

DeLindsay wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

58k magicka O.o how the......

Necropetence set is the easiest way. Also current Emperor gets what, +100% Stamina/Magicka/Health via the Emperor Passive? I made a Template Sorc on PTS and could easily reach 30K as a non-Emp in Template gear while still having over 18K Health (non-Emp, standing in Cyro). Didn't you and I have this conversation Gorthax about how OP Necro gear might be without soft caps?

I think we did my good sir. Actually I am pretty sure we did.

Gorthax

For anyone complaining about shield stacking.....let me help you out by giving you a HUGE secret when it comes to fighting them.

CC! There is a HUGE disadvantage for going full on glass cannon and using shields. Stamina. It is the one weakness. To make a shield stack build work for a sorc you need to have 3 glyphs of spell cost reduction (this is how they make it work for so long).

ANY! build can fight a shield stack build. Just run a CC. Keep the pressure on them, keep CC on them. A couple well timed CC and they are out of stamina. What happens when you run out of stamina and then get CC? You die. If you cant break the shields (that mind you they cant cast while cc'd) then you need to reevaluate your build. Otherwise your damage output is not enough.

So many times I have won doing the shield stack method(via stacking, fleeing, and going ranged spells). Yet more times I die. When the pressure is on a shield stacker has ZERO opportunity of attack if they are forced to constantly reapply the shield. Toss in CC and its GG for us.

It really is THAT simple.......melee characters DESTROY shields so fast. If you are fighting a shield stacker and see harness magicka go up. That is your que to STOP using magicka attacks. If you continue to do so it is your fault he keeps his shields up for a long time.

Hope this helped

trimsic_ESO

@Gorthax‌
You are right, albeit this is not that easy against a pet build sorcerer

Gorthax

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

@Gorthax‌
You are right, albeit this is not that easy against a pet build sorcerer

@trimsic_ESO‌

Well the pets can be a issue, the flying one dies in one hit (usually) and has a long cast time. The tank one can be dealt with easily with CC as well. CC it then run for the summoner. Once the pressure is on they wont have time to summon the pet. If they do you just repeat the cycle.

Easier said then done, but after a good amount of losses due to using pets I decided to not run them anymore as they are more of a liability than anything. They make it really easy to catch the summoner via charge leaping.

Dracane

'Nerfsorc' is an Emperor. Which means, her Magicka is twice the amount as ours and she's full Magicka) So she has like 60 000 Magicka or even more.

So it's natural, that her damage is so high. With that being said: You can't complain about an Emperor damage is fine for normal mortals. 11 000 damage for an EMPEROR with 60 000 Magicka is too low. Damage should be increased

Dracane

Soulac wrote: »

Nacario wrote: »

Damage is high but so is the shield stacking, and currently it > damage.

Tell me more about this Shield Stacking for NB.
Don´t suggest Healing Ward, it´s too late if you reach 30%.

Lol^^ NB shield stacking is so strong. They stack Harness Magicka and Healing ward (using healing ward at 30% health would be very clever, because the shield gets so strong)

I've been fighting Sypher with his Nightblade yesterday. He eats up more damage than a Sorcerer with 3 shields. He has even survived Overload spam until I was out of Ultimate, from 1000 to 0. O.o Shield stack is Overpowered Nightblades seem to have no problem.

Solanum

Magicka is still superior to stamina thanks to the ability to create shields and land proper heals. I do feel the stamina heal in the PVP skill-line helps a little bit with this issue, but for those like me whom don't have access to it yet a magicka build is guaranteed to win if the other person knows how to play.

It's also quite difficult to keep pressure on a sorcerer as a stamina/melee char, sure we hit like a truck if we finally get close, but with the teleport we get CC-ed, there are mines, and I don't seem to last long enough to wear down a good sorcerer. Again, this might have to do with a serious lack of shielding/self healing.

Ezareth

Sharee wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

I don't think a Sorc Emperor is really all *that* much more powerful as the bonus to overload damage is offset quite a bit by the limited ultimate generation. As Emperor prior to 1.6 I could overload almost nonstop....now since Overload attacks themselves don't generate ult (even though they are "light/heavy" attacks) and kills generate far less ult even as emperor you can't overload as much as you could pre-1.5.

I tested this on my baby v7 sorcerer copy.

Casting a single light overload attack cost him 22 ultimate. The same light overload attack triggered ultimate regeneration buff that restored 24 ultimate.

In other words, if you limit your overload light attacks to one per 8 seconds, you are actually gaining ultimate from doing so.

You're not going to kill anyone by overloading once every 8 seconds and remaining in Overload mode drops your survivability drastically as you can't use your resto shield, and you have no physical shield equipped. Currently overload generates no ult when they hit shields, I didn't notice the buff increase since most of my fighting is against shields.

DeLindsay wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

He's not using pets and "easily" reach 30K magicka is with every single point in magicka, high elf/breton, and legendary gear all enchanted with magicka and VR14 epic rings/neck with magicka and VR10 epic food. Not everyone will be rocking all of that on live.

The 58K is an Emperor. What's half of 58K Magicka, 29K, VERY easily achievable in 1.6 while still having 35-38K Health as Emp. That said ~40K is about the upper limit for non-Emps and it does seriously gimp you for Stamina although Health can still be reasonable in Cyro at ~18K, especially if that Sorc is spamming Shields. There's no reason at all for Emps in 1.6 to put ANY points/Glyphs/set bonuses into Health.

I know who the Emp is, he's killed me several times now. I was speaking about the fact that reaching 30K Magicka isn't all as easy as it is made out to be and it comes with sacrifices.

There is little reason pre 1.6 for Emps to put bonuses into health due to the way soft-caps work, it is no different in 1.6.

One thing to note: Being emp doesn't double your non-emp health and magicka and stam, it doubles your *base adjusted* stats which is something a bit less for many of them. All your percentage modifiers including emp are added together not multipled separately.

Ezareth

Derra wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Nacario wrote: »

Damage is high but so is the shield stacking, and currently it > damage.

Tell me more about this Shield Stacking for NB.
Don´t suggest Healing Ward, it´s too late if you reach 30%.

@Soulac Maybe ask a good nb for help.
The builds giving you trouble should not be magica based but some guy with a 2h heavy attacking for 10k dmg - thats where nb has absolutely no defense.

Also 6k noncrit for EDIT: Veiled Strike (hidden blade was not was i meant) seems fine from my perspective.

I lost a couple times to a nightblade last night. I think the time for making rash judgements isn't now...we *all* need to continue testing the PTS and learn more before making judgements.

DeLindsay

Exstazik wrote: »

Want to see Sorc_emperator dmg with 2800+ spell dmg.

I don't think 2800 Spell Damage is possible. Right now for PTS the upper limit of Spell Damage is ~2160 + 20% (Major buff) for something like ~2592 (for the duration of the SD buff), give or take a few points. As a NB I hit just over 2100 with some tweaked Gear choices but I use 1 Glyph for Fire Resistance so I lose out on a single Spell Dmg Glyph. If ZoS would ever add a SD Glyph for Weapons like we already have for Weapon Power that'd get us a little closer.

BTW, what's an emperator? Just curious

Fatalyis

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

I lost a couple times to a nightblade last night. I think the time for making rash judgements isn't now...we *all* need to continue testing the PTS and learn more before making judgements.

Agreed.

I beat a few different Sorcs a handful of times a couple nights back with my NB caster, and was feeling pretty good about it....until I got wrecked by a Templar over and over.

My first instinct was to blame the game, ZOS, imbalance (Radiant Oppression hit me for 18k!), etc...but after a few minutes and looking over the abilities that I had been using and some of the mistakes I had made, I realized there were quite a few things I could have done differently.

Lesson learned, and just like always, I must adapt.

olsborg

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

the TTK of players in PTS right now is far too short. We really need to bring back the bonus HP.

Bring back bonus hp, and bring back a lessened version of softcaps, like 25% instead of the 50% currently on live now. TTK is ridiculous, its not even fun winning fights because some people dont even get a chance to fight back.

olsborg

Derra wrote: »

DeLindsay wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

58k magicka O.o how the......

Necropetence set is the easiest way. Also current Emperor gets what, +100% Stamina/Magicka/Health via the Emperor Passive? I made a Template Sorc on PTS and could easily reach 30K as a non-Emp in Template gear while still having over 18K Health (non-Emp, standing in Cyro). Didn't you and I have this conversation Gorthax about how OP Necro gear might be without soft caps?

The problem most people do not realize by now is that a stamina build min-maxed in a similar fashion will ravage a magica build even with shields (wait for a 2h build with 2800 weapon dmg). Its not even close most of the time. Arguably this works best with Nightblades and DKs. Templars seem to be lacking in that regard.

Yea, been testing abit on PTS and 2h builds are insane. It really needs to be tuned down or brought back to the drawing board completely and balanced for everyone.

Fatalyis

olsborg wrote: »

Yea, been testing abit on PTS and 2h builds are insane. It really needs to be tuned down or brought back to the drawing board completely and balanced for everyone.

Someone told me that Wrecking Blow was changed from Live, in the sense that on Live you get the damage bonus to next attack but it doesn't apply to Wrecking Blow, but that in 1.6 that's been removed so that the damage bonus applies to Wrecking Blow.....effectively making it worthwhile to spam it. Know if this is true?

I don't play Stamina builds so I haven't tested it out, but it hits me like a Mack truck and I've had several people attempt to spam it over and over on me.

Also, the fact that Momentums 20% damage bonus applies to all weapon abilities and not just 2H needs to be reverted.

Snit

Part of this may be people overstacking Magicka/ Stamina. With the soft caps gone, we're all having fun maxxing out our DPS. But I wonder how many are still plugging 20+ points into Health.

DeLindsay

Snit wrote: »

Part of this may be people overstacking Magicka/ Stamina. With the soft caps gone, we're all having fun maxxing out our DPS. But I wonder how many are still plugging 20+ points into Health.

For PvP who knows, for PvE I 100% guarantee you Players will realize very fast that Vet Dungeons and Trials won't be completable with 14-16K Health. Based on what we've seen so far I'm guessing for PvE 19-21K is going to be the minimum Health to survive certain unblockable Boss mechanics.

Snit

DeLindsay wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Part of this may be people overstacking Magicka/ Stamina. With the soft caps gone, we're all having fun maxxing out our DPS. But I wonder how many are still plugging 20+ points into Health.

For PvP who knows, for PvE I 100% guarantee you Players...

Oh, I agree... I plan to put 20 to 25 points into health, as a sorcerer. But 90% of the feedback on this forum is from people who focus solely or primarily on PvP, and that's where the "too muck damage" complaints originate.