I'm sorry

Danikat

About the game going buy-to-play. It's my fault.

Well, not me alone obviously, but people like me.

I've been a fan of TES since Morrowind and when I first heard about ESO I was excited. Unsure about some aspects of course, but still excited. I signed up for the betas the first chance I got and played every one I had access to. And I did like the game. I wouldn't say it's the best game ever, or even the best MMO or TES game but still very enjoyable.

But I found the business model a major stumbling block. I can afford a subscription but for various reasons I'm not willing to pay one. And I told ZOS that, repeatedly. I think it came up in every single piece of feedback I left. I asked repeatedly for a b2p model instead and left at least one essay on why I think it's better.

Now, a year on, I'm getting exactly what I asked for. And again I'm excited and looking forward to finally playing this game. My husband and several of my friends who did buy the game and then unsubbed shortly after are also planning to come back and we've all been badgering everyone else we think might be interested to join in too.

But at the same time I feel guilty, because me and my friends getting the business model we want comes at the cost of many of you not getting the one you wanted, and had and were happy with. When I heard the news I came straight here to see how the existing fan base was taking it, and the reaction was pretty much what I'd expected. It definitely curbed my own enthusiasm to see so many hurt, angry, disappointed people (regardless of how justified you, or I or anyone else might think those reactions are).

And also because I share many of the same concerns about the introduction of a cash shop being, either overtly or gradually over time, the introduction of pay-to-win (a big part of the reason I advocated b2p over f2p is I think that makes it less likely) and I wanted to see what details had been given so far and what the likely impact would be.

As it is I'm still cautiously optimistic and I look forward to playing with my friends and those of you who are sticking around. I've heard many good things about this community and seen it myself on this forum (no, really), although I hope you'll forgive the influx of noob questions in chat.

But even so, I'm sorry.

Merrak

It's ok, we forgive you...this time...

Valymer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSM3w1v-A_Y

WraithAzraiel

<drags in two separate carts. One labeled, "Torches" the other labeled, "Pitchforks">

And now we wait.....

Roechacca

Bah I can't be mad at that much concern an honesty . Welcome to the game ... No feet on the furniture though !

Sallington

Now you are left to play in the doomed world you've created.

Seriously though, the quality of experience you'll be getting with B2P will be much less than if you had just spent $15 a month. It won't have the longevity and it won't have the content.

Stonesthrow

Good one OP… I like.

Morshire

Um, "cautiously optimistic " about meeting the "new" players and what that will mean for the game. Welcome though for you and yours. I hope you at least get the "experience" you were hoping for when you wrote all those letters.

daneyulebub17_ESO

Not as sorry as this game's going to look in 6 to 9 months.

Galathil923

Dont blame yourself ,some people do want this B2P model, I personally was happy with the sub model.I have more of a problem being lied to by Zos this whole time. I think things would have went a lot smoother had they been honest with what they were working on.

Vlakna

I doubt this was because you write an essay. More like the plan ZOS had from day one when they decided to develop for consoles.
Welcome to the game.

Jaxsun

Danikat wrote: »

About the game going buy-to-play. It's my fault.

Well, not me alone obviously, but people like me.

I've been a fan of TES since Morrowind and when I first heard about ESO I was excited. Unsure about some aspects of course, but still excited. I signed up for the betas the first chance I got and played every one I had access to. And I did like the game. I wouldn't say it's the best game ever, or even the best MMO or TES game but still very enjoyable.

But I found the business model a major stumbling block. I can afford a subscription but for various reasons I'm not willing to pay one. And I told ZOS that, repeatedly. I think it came up in every single piece of feedback I left. I asked repeatedly for a b2p model instead and left at least one essay on why I think it's better.

Now, a year on, I'm getting exactly what I asked for. And again I'm excited and looking forward to finally playing this game. My husband and several of my friends who did buy the game and then unsubbed shortly after are also planning to come back and we've all been badgering everyone else we think might be interested to join in too.

But at the same time I feel guilty, because me and my friends getting the business model we want comes at the cost of many of you not getting the one you wanted, and had and were happy with. When I heard the news I came straight here to see how the existing fan base was taking it, and the reaction was pretty much what I'd expected. It definitely curbed my own enthusiasm to see so many hurt, angry, disappointed people (regardless of how justified you, or I or anyone else might think those reactions are).

And also because I share many of the same concerns about the introduction of a cash shop being, either overtly or gradually over time, the introduction of pay-to-win (a big part of the reason I advocated b2p over f2p is I think that makes it less likely) and I wanted to see what details had been given so far and what the likely impact would be.

As it is I'm still cautiously optimistic and I look forward to playing with my friends and those of you who are sticking around. I've heard many good things about this community and seen it myself on this forum (no, really), although I hope you'll forgive the influx of noob questions in chat.

But even so, I'm sorry.

It's not your fault and may not be a bad decision by zos id they can show some restraint and not put weapons, armor or buff items that give an unfair advantage to those that by them from the store

That's a big if but its possible however unlikely.

wraith808

Galathil923 wrote: »

Dont blame yourself ,some people do want this B2P model, I personally was happy with the sub model.I have more of a problem being lied to by Zos this whole time. I think things would have went a lot smoother had they been honest with what they were working on.

Why do you assume they lied to you the whole time? Other than the last few months- and I'm assuming that the people that interacted with us were kept to confidentiality- I don't think they explicitly knew. There were several factors- many that those that communicate us probably had little control over.

• Subscription numbers
• Console release
• MS and Sony pressure
• The realities of the Console market

It was a business decision, spurred by current market conditions and platform agreements- and I can't get the whole thought process that it was against any group of people personally.

BBSooner

I hope a year down the road it will be the same game you were excited to play: one focused on fun content in an effort to retain subs and keep people happy, instead of the type of game b2p/f2p typically become: one focused on making sure their cash shop is being used enough to provide the income needed.

Again, I hope we get the same pace of content and updates that we have been used to, but other MMOs say otherwise. We'll hope together, I suppose.

Morshire

I just went back and reread the OP comment....hats off to you. That took a HUGE set of brass *** to come to the forum and write that as you re-enter the game. You had to have known that you ran the risk of not just getting flamed in the forums (forever) but that there could potentially be a large harassing mob following you around in game (not literally) and yet you still came forward with this thread. Realizing that it likely was not you who "made" this happen, you still humbly came here and asked to be forgiven. My hat is off to you and I am simply enthralled at your gumption. I don't know what kind of backbone you were born with, but my hat even goes off to your parents for good genetics/upbringing. I hope this is the defining moment for what the future of this game holds...well this and how no one in this community has actually "ripped you a new one" for even trying to claim responsibility for this fiasco.

Greycats

Welcome to the game!

Joy_Division

It's not your fault. It's Zenimax's fault for a shaky launch that did not generate the the enthusiasm and word of mouth that might have convinced you that subbing was worth seeing one less movie a month.

There was a negative reaction because Zenimax has finally dealt with many of its launch issues (bots, bugged quests, no end game pve content...though not all: see Cyrodiil lag) that made the game worth $15 a month. We are worried because ESO is in a relatively good place and the B2P is a potentially very slippery slope.

Gix

wraith808 wrote: »

Galathil923 wrote: »

Dont blame yourself ,some people do want this B2P model, I personally was happy with the sub model.I have more of a problem being lied to by Zos this whole time. I think things would have went a lot smoother had they been honest with what they were working on.

Why do you assume they lied to you the whole time? Other than the last few months- and I'm assuming that the people that interacted with us were kept to confidentiality- I don't think they explicitly knew. There were several factors- many that those that communicate us probably had little control over.

• Subscription numbers
• Console release
• MS and Sony pressure
• The realities of the Console market

It was a business decision, spurred by current market conditions and platform agreements- and I can't get the whole thought process that it was against any group of people personally.

I think I can answer on his behalf:

Subscription fees for MMOs are supposed to cover the cost of server maintenance (not a big issue these days) and building future content. We've been playing for practically a year now and the content that we've paid for (and still have no received save for Craglorn) will be available for free on release. That's not counting the countless problems this game had outside of the content.

The reason we kept playing/paying is for them to give us new and better things in the game. We're getting that, sure enough, but we might as well have waited instead. Waited for the undaunted XP change, the champion system, etc. All these things happening back to back leaves a sour taste to those who actually backed the game.

Doing a 180 on a design and marketing choice that was originally set and publicized seems a tad too early for a 1year old MMO. Thus, it feels like we've been paying a Beta test and, while I don't personally believe that, I won't blame anyone who thinks so.

Love it or hate it, subscription numbers are low due to the state of the game. Changing the business model to get more money despite our contribution is a slap to the face. I'm okay with the game as it is but if they really needed more subscribers to keep the subscription model going, they should've done a better/smarter job in their initial design.

VirtualElizabeth

Welcome to ESO, @Danikat!

wraith808

Gix wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

Why do you assume they lied to you the whole time? Other than the last few months- and I'm assuming that the people that interacted with us were kept to confidentiality- I don't think they explicitly knew. There were several factors- many that those that communicate us probably had little control over.

• Subscription numbers
• Console release
• MS and Sony pressure
• The realities of the Console market

It was a business decision, spurred by current market conditions and platform agreements- and I can't get the whole thought process that it was against any group of people personally.

I think I can answer on his behalf:

Subscription fees for MMOs are supposed to cover the cost of server maintenance (not a big issue these days) and building future content. We've been playing for practically a year now and the content that we've paid for (and still have no received save for Craglorn) will be available for free on release. That's not counting the countless problems this game had outside of the content.

The reason we kept playing/paying is for them to give us new and better things in the game. We're getting that, sure enough, but we might as well have waited instead. Waited for the undaunted XP change, the champion system, etc. All these things happening back to back leaves a sour taste to those who actually backed the game.

Doing a 180 on a design and marketing choice that was originally set and publicized seems a tad too early for a 1year old MMO. Thus, it feels like we've been paying a Beta test and, while I don't personally believe that, I won't blame anyone who thinks so.

Love it or hate it, subscription numbers are low due to the state of the game. Changing the business model to get more money despite our contribution is a slap to the face. I'm okay with the game as it is but if they really needed more subscribers to keep the subscription model going, they should've done a better/smarter job in their initial design.

That... answers none of what I actually asked. Why do you think it was against *you* personally. There are a variety of reasons that this decision was made... and none of them were *personal*. I think it was because of the reality of the MMO landscape on consoles... and how critical that money is. I also think it's short-sighted, but that will depend on the market for crowns and how they handle it. But no matter what happens, I won't take it personally, which is what a lot of people, including the OP, seem to be doing.

Elridge

It's ok @Danikat‌ , I'm ready to help answer the "influx of noob questions" as you put it, and welcome more people into Tamriel with a friendly face. Might not be exactly what a fair amount of us wanted, but we'll deal, hopefully the veterans are nice enough not to be rude to our new citizens of Tamriel.

Muizer

@‌Danikat

I don't have problems with people who prefer B2P. It's purely the cash-shops and in particular the fact that right off the bat ZoS make clear they're not above selling things like xp-boosters.

And that's coming from a subscriber who, as things stand, would benefit from this particular perk.

To me that really feels like the kind of bribe that's intended to make someone complicit in some dodgy scheme.

Edit: Have to add that I'm apparently quite alone in seeing it that way.

Melian

Um, I hope you enjoy getting the hard sell from the cash shop every time you play?
Although you shouldn't give yourself so much credit. Zeni hasn't shown much concern for feedback from players, one way or another, although they might use it as an excuse when they mess things up (starting zones, veteran content, and Doshia, anybody? And now this...)

shadowmilb14_ESO

I'm getting off this ship before it sinks. I defended the game for the past months against the rage of Internet hate. Explaining how things are are different now. How yes, launch was rocky, but thing have and are continuing to improve.

But I can't defend this move they are making. They are completely alienating those of us that have been here the whole time. Who have stuck with it though thick and thin.

The main reason I got into the game, was the promise of a sub-only game. And now that is gone.

This is the only thing I can think of to sum up how I feel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_YozYt8l-g

Gix

wraith808 wrote: »

Gix wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

Why do you assume they lied to you the whole time? Other than the last few months- and I'm assuming that the people that interacted with us were kept to confidentiality- I don't think they explicitly knew. There were several factors- many that those that communicate us probably had little control over.

• Subscription numbers
• Console release
• MS and Sony pressure
• The realities of the Console market

It was a business decision, spurred by current market conditions and platform agreements- and I can't get the whole thought process that it was against any group of people personally.

I think I can answer on his behalf:

Subscription fees for MMOs are supposed to cover the cost of server maintenance (not a big issue these days) and building future content. We've been playing for practically a year now and the content that we've paid for (and still have no received save for Craglorn) will be available for free on release. That's not counting the countless problems this game had outside of the content.

The reason we kept playing/paying is for them to give us new and better things in the game. We're getting that, sure enough, but we might as well have waited instead. Waited for the undaunted XP change, the champion system, etc. All these things happening back to back leaves a sour taste to those who actually backed the game.

Doing a 180 on a design and marketing choice that was originally set and publicized seems a tad too early for a 1year old MMO. Thus, it feels like we've been paying a Beta test and, while I don't personally believe that, I won't blame anyone who thinks so.

Love it or hate it, subscription numbers are low due to the state of the game. Changing the business model to get more money despite our contribution is a slap to the face. I'm okay with the game as it is but if they really needed more subscribers to keep the subscription model going, they should've done a better/smarter job in their initial design.

That... answers none of what I actually asked. Why do you think it was against *you* personally. There are a variety of reasons that this decision was made... and none of them were *personal*. I think it was because of the reality of the MMO landscape on consoles... and how critical that money is. I also think it's short-sighted, but that will depend on the market for crowns and how they handle it. But no matter what happens, I won't take it personally, which is what a lot of people, including the OP, seem to be doing.

You asked why some believed they were lied to. They didn't come to knock on my door to personally slap my money across my face but the explanation is simple: because people who spend money expect something of value in return. If you pay for something and you're not satisfied the product and you, then, find out that what you've been paying for will be repackaged for free, you'd be pissed as well.

That's not counting the countless PR that, if you read them now, are completely FALSE... on a 1 year old MMO.

I'm not a doomsayer but I'll side with the devil's advocate on this one:
Worse case scenario is that the money people have been investing in the game has been going into the development of the online store; something that grants ZOS even more money for absolutely no benefit to the current paying customers what-so-ever. How long did it take them to set up this store, I wonder... on a 1 year old MMO.

Where is my money going into?

That is excessively insulting especially considering the wording of the PR.

MornaBaine

wraith808 wrote: »

Galathil923 wrote: »

Dont blame yourself ,some people do want this B2P model, I personally was happy with the sub model.I have more of a problem being lied to by Zos this whole time. I think things would have went a lot smoother had they been honest with what they were working on.

Why do you assume they lied to you the whole time? Other than the last few months- and I'm assuming that the people that interacted with us were kept to confidentiality- I don't think they explicitly knew. There were several factors- many that those that communicate us probably had little control over.

• Subscription numbers
• Console release
• MS and Sony pressure
• The realities of the Console market

It was a business decision, spurred by current market conditions and platform agreements- and I can't get the whole thought process that it was against any group of people personally.

When I look at all the goodies they've already got cooked up for the cash shop, pets, mounts, costumes...I KNOW in my bones those things were created quite some time ago but held back FOR THE CASH SHOP. The fact that we got not a single scrap of "fluff" for nearly a full year tells me they knew darn well where they were going.

Danikat

Well it's nice to see this has stayed civil, even when people disagree. That's what I meant about the great community here.

As I said I'm wary of the cash shop too. I've been on the fence about DLC ever since horse armour was added to Oblivion. Although strangely enough I was never as worried about expansions and add-on packs back in ye olde days when they were sold on disks. Maybe I assumed it had to be good to justify the cost and effort of making and shipping the packs, maybe I was a naïve kid (most likely a bit of both).

But I play GW2 and I'm ok with what they've done with the cash shop so far. Yes they sell boosters but the difference they make is so minor I'm sceptical anyone actually buys them. Hopefully it will be the same here.

Although I have no experience with VR levels and champion ranks and things, beyond what I've picked up lurking on the forum so I'm not sure how that might affect it.

mamericus

This is the kind of honesty and openness that we expected from Zenimax, which is, I think, the main reason a lot of us are so angry. Thank you for your sympathy, no hard feelings here and I hope you enjoy the game thoroughly.

novusprimeb14_ESO

Sallington wrote: »

Now you are left to play in the doomed world you've created.

Seriously though, the quality of experience you'll be getting with B2P will be much less than if you had just spent $15 a month. It won't have the longevity and it won't have the content.

Correct

Gix

Danikat wrote: »

Well it's nice to see this has stayed civil, even when people disagree. That's what I meant about the great community here.

As I said I'm wary of the cash shop too. I've been on the fence about DLC ever since horse armour was added to Oblivion. Although strangely enough I was never as worried about expansions and add-on packs back in ye olde days when they were sold on disks. Maybe I assumed it had to be good to justify the cost and effort of making and shipping the packs, maybe I was a naïve kid (most likely a bit of both).

But I play GW2 and I'm ok with what they've done with the cash shop so far. Yes they sell boosters but the difference they make is so minor I'm sceptical anyone actually buys them. Hopefully it will be the same here.

Although I have no experience with VR levels and champion ranks and things, beyond what I've picked up lurking on the forum so I'm not sure how that might affect it.

I forgot to welcome you to the forums; I sincerely hope you enjoy your stay.

I enjoyed GuildWars 2 and the first experience with "added content" when it was released was awesome. My overall experience was somewhat tainted with the introduction of the smaller living-story chapters and the idea that I much prefer the original GuildWars' business model.

The Gem store honestly annoyed me but, at least, most of it could be ignored. The problem I find isn't necessarily the idea that they could shove a store in my face, but the idea that their budgeting will be severely dampened if they relied too much on it.

The good news for us is that, now, we have a choice:
1) Pay for free and deal with whatever you get.
2) Play for free and buy vanity items from the store.
3) Play for free and use a business model akin to GW1: pay for whatever content you want as they are released.
4) Continue to pay a subscription and get the content like nothing changed.
5) Any combination of #1-to-3.

What I'm worried about is that, due to this change, #3 and #4 are the only reliable revenues for ZOS to develop worthwhile content and a large significant portion of the already subscribed player-base will go for #1 or #2. Sure, they'll get a sizable amount of money from the vanity store but you can't budget game development projects properly with that money.

It's not the end of the world and the game isn't really about to fall dead but the change really wasn't what the players wanted (we throw money so they can fix bugs and add content, that's all we want from ZOS) and the transition (or at least how they shared the information) was sloppy and a slap to the face.

I'm debating whenever or not I'm going with #3 or #4...

mamericus

Muizer wrote: »

@‌Danikat

I don't have problems with people who prefer B2P. It's purely the cash-shops and in particular the fact that right off the bat ZoS make clear they're not above selling things like xp-boosters.

And that's coming from a subscriber who, as things stand, would benefit from this particular perk.

To me that really feels like the kind of bribe that's intended to make someone complicit in some dodgy scheme.

Edit: Have to add that I'm apparently quite alone in seeing it that way.

Nope. I agree with you entirely. This is another well documented problem in F2P world; as soon as a game goes F2P, boosters of all sorts (crafting, xp, reputation) are up and available in the cash shops, and everything just starts getting easier. It's what @ZOS_MattFiror‌ called "convenience" in that live stream.