This forum is a foul place today

zward887_ESO

I've seen this same symptom on the Dust 514 forums as well. The lack of positivity is mostly linked to the lack of new content. In Dust they pulled a fairly similar thing, content started coming out slower and slower and the devs were communicating less and less until they announced they were working on a PC version of the game. It was clear they had pulled most of the development from the PS3 version to start working on this 'reimagined' game.

I think a lot of the negativity, even if people don't realize it specifically, is that we're all a little upset that they've held off so much content to wait and sell it piecemeal after ESO:TU releases. At this point I can almost guarantee that Wrothgar, Imperial City, Champion & Justice System, and Spellcrafting could have all been released by now, or at least by March 17th, if they hadn't made this decision. The two factors for why this content is not out yet is because, 1. They have pulled development off these things to build the cash shop and the new items in the cash shop, and 2. Once it was 95% finished they stopped it to wait and sell it instead of push it out for free.

If I was a publisher on the ESO staff I would 100% recommend to release nothing substantial that was developed between October 2014 to March 2015 and wait for the release to sell it as DLC. Why would you give it away for free if you don't have to? The reason Champ and Justice system are being released is because they are systems and would not sell well as DLC (honestly, as a min-maxer I would likely opt out of justice system and continue to loot and pillage without consequence), its also a very convenient peace offering ("look, we're not all bad, you're getting Champ and Justice systems for free!!")

This has just put everyone off I think. I've played quite a few MMOs now and I feel I can say with some confidence that how much content they've released in this game's first year is pretty light, especially for a sub based MMO. No... they've been holding out and waiting so they can sell us this content for $40 bucks a pop as they made the B2P decision right around October I would guess, probably after the 6 month subs started dropping off.

I, personally, am happy with the change to B2P as I don't believe they release enough content to justify a subscription.

SFBryan18

zward887_ESO wrote: »

I've seen this same symptom on the Dust 514 forums as well. The lack of positivity is mostly linked to the lack of new content. In Dust they pulled a fairly similar thing, content started coming out slower and slower and the devs were communicating less and less until they announced they were working on a PC version of the game. It was clear they had pulled most of the development from the PS3 version to start working on this 'reimagined' game.

I think a lot of the negativity, even if people don't realize it specifically, is that we're all a little upset that they've held off so much content to wait and sell it piecemeal after ESO:TU releases. At this point I can almost guarantee that Wrothgar, Imperial City, Champion & Justice System, and Spellcrafting could have all been released by now, or at least by March 17th, if they hadn't made this decision. The two factors for why this content is not out yet is because, 1. They have pulled development off these things to build the cash shop and the new items in the cash shop, and 2. Once it was 95% finished they stopped it to wait and sell it instead of push it out for free.

If I was a publisher on the ESO staff I would 100% recommend to release nothing substantial that was developed between October 2014 to March 2015 and wait for the release to sell it as DLC. Why would you give it away for free if you don't have to? The reason Champ and Justice system are being released is because they are systems and would not sell well as DLC (honestly, as a min-maxer I would likely opt out of justice system and continue to loot and pillage without consequence), its also a very convenient peace offering ("look, we're not all bad, you're getting Champ and Justice systems for free!!")

This has just put everyone off I think. I've played quite a few MMOs now and I feel I can say with some confidence that how much content they've released in this game's first year is pretty light, especially for a sub based MMO. No... they've been holding out and waiting so they can sell us this content for $40 bucks a pop as they made the B2P decision right around October I would guess, probably after the 6 month subs started dropping off.

I, personally, am happy with the change to B2P as I don't believe they release enough content to justify a subscription.

Dust was destined to fail from the start for many reasons. First being that it was designed to be a F2P P2W game, and after that, new consoles came out.

rynth

Fruity_Ninja wrote: »

celticstorm wrote: »

I hope 99% of you quit like you're threatening. We need more fresh and positive people in the community to make sure they keep listening to us and improving on the game we already like. No one's played their new model yet so calm down.

True story inbound.

I actually stopped playing for 2 months and came back around a month ago. I kept my sub going the whole time though. My reason- I was reading too much of this forum and the amount of whinging and childish behaviour gave me the equivalent of online ebola.

I shouldn't have let it affect me like that to be honest, but damn.

Although it is to be expected in a gaming forum, as it seems to be a very entitled generation currently in existence.

Anyway +1 OP I'm with you on this one. Fresh and positive feedback and discussions go a long way to making ESO a fun place to come to.

so very very true! this forum is a very poisonous place and anybody reading (myself included) would draw you away from a pretty good MMO.

Gidorick

You must be new. Welcome to the Internet.

rynth

Another thing to look at is the whole F2P seems to be what the "norm" is for MMO's. I'm sure company's are finding it they make more money going to F2P with option of subbing. I remember a long time ago when galaxies and WoW first came out I was put off on paying a monthly fee to play a game I already purchased.

Then paying a monthly fee became the "norm" for big named MMO's it seemed, then finally MMO's started to go F2P...guess what I'm trying to say is that F2P is maybe the trend now.

Although you still have to purchase the game, it is no different from buying an xbox game or playstation game and playing online for free(other than console online fee). We as ESO subs have all gotten our moneys worth and have had fun playing.....cause well if you have been paying a monthly fee and hate the game yet continue to pay the fee well your kind of an......

Lordstarfox

Grab popcorn and enjoy the show.

Nazon_Katts

Spottswoode wrote: »

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

Gotta love the irony of someone complaining about people complaining LOL

@Nazon_Katts You're needed here.

In all seriousness, the reaction is to be expected. I'm not quitting the game quite yet but if ZOS can't manage to navigate the treacherous path of content v.s. glitter I'll be quitting soon. I play F2P games (just check my games list) so I'll give this a chance.

I hope you don't mind that I find this a tad more fitting:


@topic it always was and was setup to be just that; a toxic dump for player thoughts. Or players. And ex-employees. Don't mind the smell, it's just the horce race track.

Feidam

BlueIllyrian wrote: »

Oh good, $150/month is also cheaper than a lot of things.

If you stop and think about that $15 a month for entertainment value you will see that it is a cheaper form of entertainment. Compare it to say going to the theater or a club. Gets expensive quickly.

Malthorne

This forum is not toxic. Are there bad apples? Sure. Do people have strong opinions? Absolutely.
If you think this place is bad now...you are likely in for a treat in a few months. For a preview if what's to come visit the Gamefaqs board

Brother_Numsie

Hey, remember when mmo's first came out and people complained about the monthly fee?

Now that I made myself feel old...

Most of the people who think this is a good thing or that they should just wait and see are not going to post on the forums within the first few days to a week after the announcement. In fact, you probably wont see most of them till the transition has happened.

My suggestion would be to skim over, or avoid the forums completely, until B2P goes live.

'Cause it's going to get even uglier in here.

BBSooner

celticstorm wrote: »

I hope 99% of you quit like you're threatening. We need more fresh and positive people in the community to make sure they keep listening to us and improving on the game we already like. No one's played their new model yet so calm down.

Sadly, if "forum morale" is important to you, you will be disappointed when the people who didn't like the game enough to sub in the first place come to criticize and complain about any and all features.

SteveCampsOut

celticstorm wrote: »

Not really complaining, just pleading for more positivity. I don't necessarily think people should NOT speak their minds... but the people that are optimistic should be heard too.

Lesson #1. Pointing out the Negativity only leads to more Negativity.
Lesson #2. Want Positive, start a positive thread. Rinse and Repeat! Flood out the negative.

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

People quit the game because they don't like the forums?

As a matter of fact yes, it's quite common for people to leave the game after coming to these forums for a question or some help, only to be inundated by the negativity around here. It sours you on the game itself when the forums leave you feeling dirty for playing.

Melian

celticstorm wrote: »

I hope 99% of you quit like you're threatening. We need more fresh and positive people in the community to make sure they keep listening to us and improving on the game we already like. No one's played their new model yet so calm down.

Why would they improve the game for people who will put up with any kind of crap and keep paying?

VictorBrav0

There is evil here that never sleeps..

mamericus

Zershar_Vemod wrote: »

Well we were given the whole spiel about how this game would stay P2P, they listen to us / our opinions mattered, etc. since day 1. Some people react more passionately when companies make a 180.

I honestly should be very pissed after a third time in a "row" of an MMO dropping P2P over the "recent" years. STO to SWTOR to TESO. At this point, I'm just disappointed that companies have 0 loyalty left to their customers.

Agreed. I think we should all move to Blizzard honestly; their game might not be great, the community there is annoying, but they are the only ones who seem to stick to their word these days.

SteveCampsOut

zward887_ESO wrote: »

This has just put everyone off I think. I've played quite a few MMOs now and I feel I can say with some confidence that how much content they've released in this game's first year is pretty light, especially for a sub based MMO.

While I understand it has been 15 years since I beta'd DAoC and it came out, but they didn't push out new content faster than once a year back then. It also took nearly a year to reach level 50, the top game level back then. I understand a lot changes in 15 years but to expect new content on a monthly basis is unrealistic. It takes time and money to develop new content, programing, art, audio etcetra. that just doesn't happen over night!

RianaTheBosmer

Razzak wrote: »

celticstorm wrote: »

I hope 99% of you quit like you're threatening. We need more fresh and positive people in the community to make sure they keep listening to us and improving on the game we already like. No one's played their new model yet so calm down.

Listening? Were they so far? I guess this conversion to B2P is a direct result of them listening to us, right? And it's not a new model, it's a model that's been out there for years and it turned bad in every single case, so far.

The Secret World is an excellent Buy to Play game.

SantieClaws

You know I'd rather a few people think this place is foul today than ZOS try to remove threads and make it look as if everything is happy and lovely.

They did that at Turbine. Say anything bad about the game and off with your head and your thread.

Everything is not lovely and not everyone is happy. First six pages of this forum show that pretty clearly.

While I am mad as a bag of spanners at ZOS for the change in payment model and everything that goes with it I am at least glad that we can still speak our minds here.

mamericus

Ashtaris wrote: »

I'm really having a hard time understanding the rage going on. For me, I'm still having fun playing ESO. For $15/month, it's certainly cheap entertainment that's usually far more enjoyable than watching most TV shows today, that's for sure. As long as ZOS keeps making it enjoyable by adding new content and other features, then I'll just keep paying my subscription. Nothings changed, move along

The problem is this: for people like me and SCORES of other gamers out there, this announcement means the game will no longer be $15/month, it will cost so much more than that. First they will throw these cool mounts, pets and cosmetics that we will all absolutely want to have, and will have to pay on top of our subscriptions for them (for stuff that should have already been in the game in the first place on an earn it through play basis). A few months down the line, it will be items that give you a competitive edge in the game that you will absolutely must have to remain competitive, especially if you hope to become emperor one day. This changes everything. A lot of people seem to think that we're trying to make a case against them making stuff free; it's the absolute opposite. This model means they will be trying to milk you for every dime you have, and I will be surprised if any of you paying a subscription end up paying only $15/month after a year or so. I don't have a problem with them charging more, I would be happy to pay a $50/month subscription if it meant not having this model... I have a problem with 1) paying an uncertain amount, and 2) paying for stuff I should be earning with gameplay. I don't know if you have been on other MMO's with this model before, and I can understand if you don't believe what we're saying. I hope, for all your sakes that I'm wrong. I agree that the game may still remain enjoyable after this, but we're fighting this because we want to see it evolve for the better, not the worse.

mamericus

SFBryan18 wrote: »

I won't try to argue about their intent, but I do believe this company had a right to change their mind after running into problems with console subscriptions. They probably wanted to make more money with a subscription fee, but they had no choice. That's just business, and if anyone is to blame, it's probably Sony, and more likely, Microsoft.

They absolutely had a right to change their mind. It's the way they went about it what really angers most of us. Also, they were never going to make more money with a subscription fee. F2P models are more profitable. It is known.

SteveCampsOut

mamericus wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

I won't try to argue about their intent, but I do believe this company had a right to change their mind after running into problems with console subscriptions. They probably wanted to make more money with a subscription fee, but they had no choice. That's just business, and if anyone is to blame, it's probably Sony, and more likely, Microsoft.

They absolutely had a right to change their mind. It's the way they went about it what really angers most of us. Also, they were never going to make more money with a subscription fee. F2P models are more profitable. It is known.

You obviously have no idea how a business must conduct itself to keep from placing themselves in a position where they can harm their negotiations by announcing things they can't legally announce.

Nazon_Katts

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

mamericus wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

I won't try to argue about their intent, but I do believe this company had a right to change their mind after running into problems with console subscriptions. They probably wanted to make more money with a subscription fee, but they had no choice. That's just business, and if anyone is to blame, it's probably Sony, and more likely, Microsoft.

They absolutely had a right to change their mind. It's the way they went about it what really angers most of us. Also, they were never going to make more money with a subscription fee. F2P models are more profitable. It is known.

You obviously have no idea how a business must conduct itself to keep from placing themselves in a position where they can harm their negotiations by announcing things they can't legally announce.

Oh, I think he has. I believe everybody has. We just don't like it and do not wish to accept this kind of behavior anymore.

SteveCampsOut

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

mamericus wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

I won't try to argue about their intent, but I do believe this company had a right to change their mind after running into problems with console subscriptions. They probably wanted to make more money with a subscription fee, but they had no choice. That's just business, and if anyone is to blame, it's probably Sony, and more likely, Microsoft.

They absolutely had a right to change their mind. It's the way they went about it what really angers most of us. Also, they were never going to make more money with a subscription fee. F2P models are more profitable. It is known.

You obviously have no idea how a business must conduct itself to keep from placing themselves in a position where they can harm their negotiations by announcing things they can't legally announce.

Oh, I think he has. I believe everybody has. We just don't like it and do not wish to accept this kind of behavior anymore.

What "Behaviour" would that be? Doing business according to all legal standards and keeping negotiations private as they are required to be by business law? It was obvious to enough of us, when they stopped talking about or answering questions about F2P or B2P that they couldn't talk about it for legal reasons. The rest of you just refused to listen. They were under negotiations trying to get the big Console players to work with their subscription models and failing.

burningcrow

You think it is foul now? Just wait... oh you just wait.

SteveCampsOut

burningcrow wrote: »

You think it is foul now? Just wait... oh you just wait.

Ooo scary threats now....

daneyulebub17_ESO

Ashtaris wrote: »

I'm really having a hard time understanding the rage going on. For me, I'm still having fun playing ESO. For $15/month, it's certainly cheap entertainment that's usually far more enjoyable than watching most TV shows today, that's for sure. As long as ZOS keeps making it enjoyable by adding new content and other features, then I'll just keep paying my subscription. Nothings changed, move along

When something's been explained, clearly, over and over, and you still "have a hard time understanding it", it's nothing to brag about. "Nothings changed"??? Are you serious? Have you read anything at all on the subject of F2P and what it does to games, or are you just skipping posts that don't agree with your head-in-the-sand outlook?

jcasini222ub17_ESO

Think its more an emotional thing. I mean I've seen friends get bent out of shape over breaking a coffee mug that they have had an emotional attachment to, or a scratch on a car, a dvd not working and the like.

To me the more emotionally attached someone is the more emotional their response whether positive our negative. Add the anonymity that the internet brings and well, rabid emotional responses become the norm.