The cash shop will turn into Pay2Win and here's why

Bouvin · January 2015

The cash shop will turn into Pay2Win and here's why.

ZOS doesn't keep it's promises.

They are saying that he cash shop will only be fluff and convenience items. But their track record of sticking by their word is really bad.

Examples:

1. They said the'd track XP and convert it to CP. Did that happen, not really!
2. They promised new content every 4-6 weeks when hyping the game. We are lucky to even get server maintenance every 4-6 weeks let alone content updates.
3. When hyping the game before release they promised it would stay on a subscription model and said they'd rather "Shut the game down than go F2P". Now they are essentially doing that. You can argue B2P isn't F2P, but I guarantee you once they want to inflate player-base numbers the box will either drop to some minimal cost (like $5) or the "base game" will be free with restrictions.
4. They have delayed 1.6 patch notes on PTS to wait for the Tamriel Unlimited announcement, taking a vow of silence on all matters subscription or 1.6 release dates until that announcement was made.

If you think this game isn't going to turn into play-2-win. Your probably one of the people who was defending ZOS saying they'd never stray from the subscription model, and that the silence was because there was no truth in it.

ZOS. At this point you've completely destroyed the trust of your community. How do you think this is going to work out for the longevity of your game?

Morthur · January 2015

Neizir · January 2015

1. Yes, actually it did happen.
2. Would you rather get relatively small, broken, unfinished content every month than huge, complete, bug-free content every 3 months
3. EVERY P2P MMO developer has stated this, then what happened? B2P/F2P happened. Nothing new.
4. ...How exactly is this point related to pay-to-win? Be thankful you got any info at all!
5. How exactly are ANY of the above points related to pay-to-win?

Metrobius · January 2015

Bouvin wrote: »

The cash shop will turn into Pay2Win and here's why.

ZOS doesn't keep it's promises.

They are saying that he cash shop will only be fluff and convenience items. But their track record of sticking by their word is really bad.

Examples:

1. They said the'd track XP and convert it to CP. Did that happen, not really!
2. They promised new content every 4-6 weeks when hyping the game. We are lucky to even get server maintenance every 4-6 weeks let alone content updates.
3. When hyping the game before release they promised it would stay on a subscription model and said they'd rather "Shut the game down than go F2P". Now they are essentially doing that. You can argue B2P isn't F2P, but I guarantee you once they want to inflate player-base numbers the box will either drop to some minimal cost (like $5) or the "base game" will be free with restrictions.
4. They have delayed 1.6 patch notes on PTS to wait for the Tamriel Unlimited announcement, taking a vow of silence on all matters subscription or 1.6 release dates until that announcement was made.

If you think this game isn't going to turn into play-2-win. Your probably one of the people who was defending ZOS saying they'd never stray from the subscription model, and that the silence was because there was no truth in it.

ZOS. At this point you've completely destroyed the trust of your community. How do you think this is going to work out for the longevity of your game?

They told a flat out, bold faced lie when they said the removal of long term subs was because it wasn't popular. Im inclined to agree with you.

BBSooner · January 2015

I agree it will devolve in to P2W, but not because people think "ZOS lies". It's just the path that the cash shop sets the game on. Removing sub requirements puts the weight of income on a combination of subs, Box sales, and cash shop. When box sales plateau, They have to put increased emphasis on the cash shop and make it more valuable - thus including items that go from "convenient" to "required".

Bouvin · January 2015

Neizir wrote: »

1. Yes, actually it did happen.
2. Would you rather get relatively small, broken, unfinished content every month than huge, complete, bug-free content every 3 months
3. EVERY P2P MMO developer has stated this, then what happened? B2P/F2P happened. Nothing new.
4. ...How exactly is this point related to pay-to-win? Be thankful you got any info at all!
5. How exactly are ANY of the above points related to pay-to-win?

Keep defending ZOS. Just like all the people did in the F2P threads for the last 3 months.

Just like all the people did when they announced the removal of the 6-month sub and said it had nothing to do with a subscription model change.

I guess some people are just sheep and will believe whatever they are told.

Dymence · January 2015

Are you playing the game to do ZOS a favor? Or are you playing the game because you enjoy it?

What does it even matter what they say, just enjoy the ride for as long as it lasts.

Jennifur_Vultee · January 2015

Neizir wrote: »

1. Yes, actually it did happen.
2. Would you rather get relatively small, broken, unfinished content every month than huge, complete, bug-free content every 3 months
3. EVERY P2P MMO developer has stated this, then what happened? B2P/F2P happened. Nothing new.
4. ...How exactly is this point related to pay-to-win? Be thankful you got any info at all!
5. How exactly are ANY of the above points related to pay-to-win?

The point Bouvin is making is they lied to us several times before. Now they're saying the cash shop will be "convenience items", honestly I'm inclined to agree its a lie and pay to win items will creep into it in one form or another.

Can't complete the latest trials? Buy our new Life Extender Potion that grants 2 minutes of invulnerability, only $5 each!

Need to upgrade your gear to the new Orange quality level...sorry those enhancement gems are cash shop only but they only cost $5 each!

Bouvin · January 2015

Dymence wrote: »

Are you playing the game to do ZOS a favor? Or are you playing the game because you enjoy it?

What does it even matter what they say, just enjoy the ride for as long as it lasts.

But that's the problem.

I'd prefer to stick to one game. But when companies keep ruining them with choices like this, it's hard.

I've been playing MMOs since UO. Most MMO's I played last 5 years have only been around 1-2 years. Prior to that, I had been able to enjoy them for 5+ years.

But this whole new 12-month of paid beta, then make a switch to f2p to fill game company's pockets is really driving the length of enjoyment down on games.

Bouvin · January 2015

Jennifur_Vultee wrote: »

Neizir wrote: »

1. Yes, actually it did happen.
2. Would you rather get relatively small, broken, unfinished content every month than huge, complete, bug-free content every 3 months
3. EVERY P2P MMO developer has stated this, then what happened? B2P/F2P happened. Nothing new.
4. ...How exactly is this point related to pay-to-win? Be thankful you got any info at all!
5. How exactly are ANY of the above points related to pay-to-win?

The point Bouvin is making is they lied to us several times before. Now they're saying the cash shop will be "convenience items", honestly I'm inclined to agree its a lie and pay to win items will creep into it in one form or another.

Can't complete the latest trials? Buy our new Life Extender Potion that grants 2 minutes of invulnerability, only $5 each!

Need to upgrade your gear to the new Orange quality level...sorry those enhancement gems are cash shop only but they only cost $5 each!

Exactly.

As soon as the cash shop sales for fluff slow down, they'll go to the next level.

ZOS is a business. They'll do whatever it takes to make money. Wether it's in the best interest of their playerbase or not.

Mercurio · January 2015

it's a well-trod path, denying it at this point is pure desperation and ignorance.

Ackwalan · January 2015

Will there be a potion to jump the line in PVP?

Tankqull · January 2015

Neizir wrote: »

2. Would you rather get relatively small, broken, unfinished content every month than huge, complete, bug-free content every 3 months

we actually get small, broken and unfinished content every 3 months...

Bouvin · January 2015

Ackwalan wrote: »

Will there be a potion to jump the line in PVP?

I will be banking my "crowns", or as I like to call them "dumb enough to keep paying a monthly fee to those liars points" in hopes of this.

phairdon · January 2015

None of know what items might become available in the cash shop.

Could be items like:
Change hair style kits
Change characters features
New mounts
Buy bank tab slots
Special armor & weapon skins
New classes
buy dlc if a non subscriber
Dye packs
Change faction
Character slots
New horse armors
Player housing

Who knows....

stabswithjello · January 2015

Bouvin

But this whole new 12-month of paid beta, then make a switch to f2p to fill game company's pockets is really driving the length of enjoyment down on games.[/quote]

Can you link where they announce F2P? i read the B2P/P2P notes but must have missed the rest.

Samadhi · January 2015

BBSooner wrote: »

I agree it will devolve in to P2W, but not because people think "ZOS lies". It's just the path that the cash shop sets the game on. Removing sub requirements puts the weight of income on a combination of subs, Box sales, and cash shop. When box sales plateau, They have to put increased emphasis on the cash shop and make it more valuable - thus including items that go from "convenient" to "required".

Yup.
The decision between cash shop and sub is one of figuring out which method will draw more revenue.
The decision between using the cash shop for small sources of revenue or large sources of revenue is simply a matter of acknowledging where the cash flow is.

Yasha · January 2015

Jennifur_Vultee wrote: »

Neizir wrote: »

1. Yes, actually it did happen.
2. Would you rather get relatively small, broken, unfinished content every month than huge, complete, bug-free content every 3 months
3. EVERY P2P MMO developer has stated this, then what happened? B2P/F2P happened. Nothing new.
4. ...How exactly is this point related to pay-to-win? Be thankful you got any info at all!
5. How exactly are ANY of the above points related to pay-to-win?

The point Bouvin is making is they lied to us several times before. Now they're saying the cash shop will be "convenience items", honestly I'm inclined to agree its a lie and pay to win items will creep into it in one form or another.

Can't complete the latest trials? Buy our new Life Extender Potion that grants 2 minutes of invulnerability, only $5 each!

Need to upgrade your gear to the new Orange quality level...sorry those enhancement gems are cash shop only but they only cost $5 each!

The point Neizir is making is that none of the OP's points have anything to do with p2w, and that some of them are just plain wrong or misguided.

timidobserver · January 2015

Im not worried about what is going to happen in 2018. If it isn't P2W when 1.6 hits I'll be fine. When it goes P2W I'll leave then rather than worrying about that possibility now.

Bouvin · January 2015

stabswithjello wrote: »

Can you link where they announce F2P? i read the B2P/P2P notes but must have missed the rest.

As soon as B2P sales drop off and cash shop sales start to approach subscription revenue, they will announce F2P.

Just wait and watch.

Tanis-Stormbinder · January 2015

I'm sure there will be cash shop class and race changes sooner or later

firstdecan · January 2015

It's already a pay to win model. People who keep their subs will earn Champion Points faster, and will have stronger characters in the game. They will also need incentives for people to play the DLC they create, so the DLC will offer opportunities or equipment not available elsewhere.

They already know many players are not interested in the "Questing Treadmill," so offering more quests will not provide an incentive for a large portion of their player base to buy DLC. That leaves special equipment only available in DLC zones, or possibly "grinding areas" for people who just want to fight lots of mobs. If you don't pay for that access, you're behind in the game.

clocksstoppe · January 2015

Truth is p2w is the final and sad stage of "the f2p cancer". It is unavoidable. The only thing you an do is hope it comes later rather than sooner

eisberg · January 2015

BBSooner wrote: »

I agree it will devolve in to P2W, but not because people think "ZOS lies". It's just the path that the cash shop sets the game on. Removing sub requirements puts the weight of income on a combination of subs, Box sales, and cash shop. When box sales plateau, They have to put increased emphasis on the cash shop and make it more valuable - thus including items that go from "convenient" to "required".

Guild Wars 2, 28 months later, still nothing in there that is required, or pay to win. They average about $11 Milllion a month in revenue from Guild Wars 2, that is equivalent to about 733,000 subscribers paying $15 a month.

Bouvin · January 2015

eisberg wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

I agree it will devolve in to P2W, but not because people think "ZOS lies". It's just the path that the cash shop sets the game on. Removing sub requirements puts the weight of income on a combination of subs, Box sales, and cash shop. When box sales plateau, They have to put increased emphasis on the cash shop and make it more valuable - thus including items that go from "convenient" to "required".

Guild Wars 2, 28 months later, still nothing in there that is required, or pay to win. They average about $11 Milllion a month in revenue from Guild Wars 2, that is equivalent to about 733,000 subscribers paying $15 a month.

Also a game that started as B2P and didn't lie to their player base for a year.

Here's a couple of quotes from ESO's producers:

Matt Firor, "Charging a flat monthly (or subscription) fee means that we will offer players the game we set out to make, and the one that fans want to play. Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren’t willing to make.”

“Our fans are our biggest inspiration, and we’ve listened to their feedback on the entertainment experience they want,” said Matt Firor

stabswithjello · January 2015

Bouvin wrote: »

stabswithjello wrote: »

Can you link where they announce F2P? i read the B2P/P2P notes but must have missed the rest.

As soon as B2P sales drop off and cash shop sales start to approach subscription revenue, they will announce F2P.

Just wait and watch.

It might, it might not i personally am waiting for the 2012 Mayan doomsday calendar to kick in but in the mean time ZOS appears to be in the business of keeping people interested in this game and i am interested in seeing how that will happen.

Korah_Eaglecry · January 2015

Neizir wrote: »

1. Yes, actually it did happen.
2. Would you rather get relatively small, broken, unfinished content every month than huge, complete, bug-free content every 3 months
3. EVERY P2P MMO developer has stated this, then what happened? B2P/F2P happened. Nothing new.
4. ...How exactly is this point related to pay-to-win? Be thankful you got any info at all!
5. How exactly are ANY of the above points related to pay-to-win?

Bug Free Content every 3 Months LOL. Youre funny.

Buck · January 2015

Bouvin wrote: »

Here's a couple of quotes from ESO's producers:

Matt Firor, "Charging a flat monthly (or subscription) fee means that we will offer players the game we set out to make, and the one that fans want to play. Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren’t willing to make.”

“Our fans are our biggest inspiration, and we’ve listened to their feedback on the entertainment experience they want,” said Matt Firor

^^^^ well done I couldn't find these quotes.

Mercurio · January 2015

eisberg wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

I agree it will devolve in to P2W, but not because people think "ZOS lies". It's just the path that the cash shop sets the game on. Removing sub requirements puts the weight of income on a combination of subs, Box sales, and cash shop. When box sales plateau, They have to put increased emphasis on the cash shop and make it more valuable - thus including items that go from "convenient" to "required".

Guild Wars 2, 28 months later, still nothing in there that is required, or pay to win. They average about $11 Milllion a month in revenue from Guild Wars 2, that is equivalent to about 733,000 subscribers paying $15 a month.

GW2 does not have (by design) any gear or anything that can be construed as P2W in the 1st place. The only "rewards" in the game *period* come from the cash shop. It's a trick and you were dumb enough to fall for it, even 2 years later when nothing has been added to the game you repeat this mantra.

eisberg · January 2015

Bouvin wrote: »

eisberg wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

I agree it will devolve in to P2W, but not because people think "ZOS lies". It's just the path that the cash shop sets the game on. Removing sub requirements puts the weight of income on a combination of subs, Box sales, and cash shop. When box sales plateau, They have to put increased emphasis on the cash shop and make it more valuable - thus including items that go from "convenient" to "required".

Guild Wars 2, 28 months later, still nothing in there that is required, or pay to win. They average about $11 Milllion a month in revenue from Guild Wars 2, that is equivalent to about 733,000 subscribers paying $15 a month.

Also a game that started as B2P and didn't lie to their player base for a year.

Here's a couple of quotes from ESO's producers:

Matt Firor, "Charging a flat monthly (or subscription) fee means that we will offer players the game we set out to make, and the one that fans want to play. Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren’t willing to make.”

“Our fans are our biggest inspiration, and we’ve listened to their feedback on the entertainment experience they want,” said Matt Firor

In order to be a lie, they needed to say that knowing they would be going Buy to Play in the future. That is what they wanted, but reality bit them in the bum and they had to make changes. Did you think that perhaps the subscription revenue they were getting was not enough to make the game game they set out to make, that they were going to have to start making even greater sacrifices if they stayed with the subscription model then they would have to go with this new mode?

Bloodfang · January 2015

SERIOUSLY WHAT AN OVERREACTION!

1. They are replacing P2P Model with a P2P/B2P Hybrid. Call it more like a B2P Trial if you want.

2. Cash Shop WON'T be P2W. If you are subscribed you will eventually buy everything for "FREE" with the crowns you will be getting monthly anyway.

3. Cash Shop WILL be more like a FEATURE than an ANNOYANCE. You will have all those awesome Costumes, Mounts and Pets there. Like I already said, if you stay subscribed you will be basically getting them for "FREE" anyway. It's addition to the game, and nothing annoying at all.

SUMMARY: Yes when I read the article first, I was really disappointed, however through some deep thought, I've found out that this Hybrid Model is way better than the P2P Model we used to have. It's possibly the best Payment Model ever created. Why:

- More Revenue for ZOS -> More Content for US

- NO P2W Cash Shop -> Just very good looking vanity stuff.

- A Buy to Play Trial for EVERYONE -> Playerbase is gonna increase by a lot.

- Buy To Play DLCs (Free for the subbed people) -> A great way to "force" people to sub anyway. I expect DLCs to be much more costly than a subscription.

What some of you don't understand:

- ESO wasn't doing bad, it would've kept the P2P Model on it's own just fine.

- Microsoft forced this on them, as they didn't want to drop the Xbox Live fee (Sony was prepared to drop it actually for the PS Net).

- Copies sold from Consoles will most likely jump from 200k -> 2mil+ just due to this change -> We are looking at 120+ mil revenue just from Console Sales.

PEOPLE NO NEED TO EXAGGERATE OR OVERREACT!
YOU WILL QUICKLY FIND OUT THAT UPDATES WILL STAY RIGHT ON SCHEDULE! HECK THEY'LL BE PROBABLY EVEN FASTER AND BIGGER. IT WAS A SMART BUSINESS MOVE!