No more new end-game only (VR/level 50-only) content?

tinythinker

I apologize if I missed a pre-existing thread on this topic, but in today's "ESO Live!" it was stated that all new zones will be scalable to whatever level you or your group is at. For those wondering about other consequences of the new revenue model, here is an example.

http://www.twitch.tv/zenimaxonlinestudios/v/3711373
(relevant portion starts right at the 22:00 minute mark)

So, Mephala's Realm (presumably her plane of Olibivion, Mephala's Web), Clockwork City, Wrothgar, Murkmire, etc, will have no basic level requirement. You can enter it any time.

1. ZOS: Is this accurate for all new zones?
2. ZOS: Does this retroactively apply to Craglorn or as part of the "basic package" will it remain the same?
3. Players: Do you approve?

I am not against having some zones be open to all levels, but I also like the idea of *some* content (other than what is already out) being available exclusively to those who have reached level 50, both as a reward and a challenge.

Thoughts?

BBSooner

I was hoping for some exclusively end - game difficult solo content from Wrothgar. If it doesn't exist then I will probably be disappointed.

s7732425ub17_ESO

There needs to be an "adventure zone" (not Craglorn) that is single player exploration oriented like Skyrim. It would probably be best if this were scaled (just like Skyrim) because that means you can experience it no matter what level you are.

However, there also needs to be "endgame only" content. Giving a level 5 player access to Trials is just stupid. If they want to be able to play with the big boys and get big boy loot, they had better have played 100+ hours and leveled their character up to 50.

It's a mistake saying "all" new zones will be scaled.

technohic

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

There needs to be an "adventure zone" (not Craglorn) that is single player exploration oriented like Skyrim. It would probably be best if this were scaled (just like Skyrim) because that means you can experience it no matter what level you are.

However, there also needs to be "endgame only" content. Giving a level 5 player access to Trials is just stupid. If they want to be able to play with the big boys and get big boy loot, they had better have played 100+ hours and leveled their character up to 50.

It's a mistake saying "all" new zones will be scaled.

Well to be fair, I think they said all purchased DLC would be accessible since they want you to be able to jump right in to what you pay for. I'm not sure that means there will be no non-DLC that is just part of the game added. Does sound hard to balance that out though.

Naivefanboi

damn good point just when i thought it couldnt get worse.

MissBizz

It keeps playability up but what about when we have a guild event and there is a large level gap? How will this phase properly?

Second concern... The scaled versions are often too difficult or too easy for some people. How could this be addressed?

I like the idea of being able to go everywhere, but I also would like an area for "challenging" content, but also an area where I can stroll through feeling powerful.

ginoboehm

will there be new trials? and new really challenging content? or will it all be made quite beginner friendly so it can be accessible by every new user to the game? because scaling is more then level beginner don't usually have upgraded sets.

tinythinker

technohic wrote: »

Well to be fair, I think they said all purchased DLC would be accessible since they want you to be able to jump right in to what you pay for. I'm not sure that means there will be no non-DLC that is just part of the game added. Does sound hard to balance that out though.

That's one of my questions for ZOS. In the interview they mentioned or showed Mephala's Web, Sotha Sil's Clockwork City, and Wrothgar during the "all new zones (that you purchase) will be scalable" discussion. It is technically possible there will be new non-DLC zones that could then have higher level requirements, but this was not mentioned. Plus, new zones are going to certainly be slotted as major revenue-makers, so freebies with high-level challenges? Sounds unlikely but maybe.

I hate to tag @ZOS_GinaBruno‌ or @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ because I am sure their INBOXes are blowing up today, but, sorry, I did it anyway

Tandor

tinythinker wrote: »

Plus, new zones are going certainly slotted as major revenue-makers, so freebies with high-level challenges? Sounds unlikely but maybe.

I can't see why they wouldn't do that. The problem with a lot of expansions is that they only suit those who are at the right level for them. There are plenty I haven't bought for just that reason in a good many MMOs.

I can see the business sense, therefore, in aiming the paid-for content at all levels through scaling, while keeping the additional high-level content free. The high-level players will still buy the expansions because they'll be scaled to their level, while the expansions will also be bought by everyone else who will additionally aspire to reach the high-level content given that it's free. Win win for the players, and for the developers who sell more expansion packs.

Elsonso

This concerned me as well. It sounds like DLC will make the game fatter, but not taller. In one way, this is good, but there really do need to be more than "I paid for this" criteria in order to get content.

Shoot. They paid for the game, why are they not level 50 with 3600 CP right off to the start.


EDIT: I wonder if this means the entire game will be leveled to the player now. The Rift at level 3, etc.

tinythinker

Tandor wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Plus, new zones are going certainly slotted as major revenue-makers, so freebies with high-level challenges? Sounds unlikely but maybe.

I can't see why they wouldn't do that. The problem with a lot of expansions is that they only suit those who are at the right level for them. There are plenty I haven't bought for just that reason in a good many MMOs.

I can see the business sense, therefore, in aiming the paid-for content at all levels through scaling, while keeping the additional high-level content free. The high-level players will still buy the expansions because they'll be scaled to their level, while the expansions will also be bought by everyone else who will additionally aspire to reach the high-level content given that it's free. Win win for the players, and for the developers who sell more expansion packs.

I see where you are coming from, and if that is confirmed, that leaves open the question of the frequency of new end-game content versus DLC and which zones will be which.

technohic

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

There needs to be an "adventure zone" (not Craglorn) that is single player exploration oriented like Skyrim. It would probably be best if this were scaled (just like Skyrim) because that means you can experience it no matter what level you are.

I think I would like this but feel like if that would have been possible, all the zones through the main story and Caldwells would have been done like that. Unless you mean no other players in with you, but then why have an MMO?

I would just be happy if some enemies were not static and had a good AI to where they would be wandering around, even getting into fights with each other.

WraithAzraiel

Did someone record this and put it on youtube yet? I'm always missing these damn things and it's not like I can DVR the friggin thing.

tinythinker

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Did someone record this and put it on youtube yet? I'm always missing these damn things and it's not like I can DVR the friggin thing.

Not sure about Youtube but it can be replayed on Twitch...

tinythinker wrote: »

For those wondering about other consequences of the new revenue model, here is an example.

http://www.twitch.tv/zenimaxonlinestudios/v/3711373
(relevant portion starts right at the 22:00 minute mark)

WraithAzraiel

I'm getting a perpetual loading hourglass thinger on the twitch link.

tinythinker

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

I'm getting a perpetual loading hourglass thinger on the twitch link.

@WraithAzraiel‌, did you ever get it to work?

tinythinker

OK, on today's AMA with the folks like Firor, Sage, Konkle, et al., I asked about this same topic and got a pretty clear response:

"Certainly leveling is one clear way to provide accomplishment, but I think with the Champion System we'll be looking at other ways to provide a great feeling of accomplishment. To be blunt, however, I think the days of gating content by level are probably behind us."

Based on this and another reply to different question, it seems very straightforward that ALL new zones are DLC and all DLC will be scalable to any level.

Faulgor

tinythinker wrote: »

OK, on today's AMA with the folks like Firor, Sage, Konkle, et al., I asked about this same topic and got a pretty clear response:

"Certainly leveling is one clear way to provide accomplishment, but I think with the Champion System we'll be looking at other ways to provide a great feeling of accomplishment. To be blunt, however, I think the days of gating content by level are probably behind us."

Based on this and another reply to different question, it seems very straightforward that ALL new zones are DLC and all DLC will be scalable to any level.

Yep, and it's the player who will scale, just like Cyrodiil. Makes sense, tbh.

nerevarine1138

I actually think this could be a good change. It certainly goes along with the Champion System in making the game more Elder Scrolls-y and less linear.

Wifeaggro13

tinythinker wrote: »

I apologize if I missed a pre-existing thread on this topic, but in today's "ESO Live!" it was stated that all new zones will be scalable to whatever level you or your group is at. For those wondering about other consequences of the new revenue model, here is an example.

http://www.twitch.tv/zenimaxonlinestudios/v/3711373
(relevant portion starts right at the 22:00 minute mark)

So, Mephala's Realm (presumably her plane of Olibivion, Mephala's Web), Clockwork City, Wrothgar, Murkmire, etc, will have no basic level requirement. You can enter it any time.

1. ZOS: Is this accurate for all new zones?
2. ZOS: Does this retroactively apply to Craglorn or as part of the "basic package" will it remain the same?
3. Players: Do you approve?

I am not against having some zones be open to all levels, but I also like the idea of *some* content (other than what is already out) being available exclusively to those who have reached level 50, both as a reward and a challenge.

Thoughts?

it is a horrendous idea. its clearly a cash grab to pander to new player while screwing the end game players that played at launch. it will dilute all end game activites , challenges and most of all the rewards.

Sallington

tinythinker wrote: »

OK, on today's AMA with the folks like Firor, Sage, Konkle, et al., I asked about this same topic and got a pretty clear response:

"Certainly leveling is one clear way to provide accomplishment, but I think with the Champion System we'll be looking at other ways to provide a great feeling of accomplishment. To be blunt, however, I think the days of gating content by level are probably behind us."

Based on this and another reply to different question, it seems very straightforward that ALL new zones are DLC and all DLC will be scalable to any level.

More evidence that they are not in this for the long

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

I apologize if I missed a pre-existing thread on this topic, but in today's "ESO Live!" it was stated that all new zones will be scalable to whatever level you or your group is at. For those wondering about other consequences of the new revenue model, here is an example.

http://www.twitch.tv/zenimaxonlinestudios/v/3711373
(relevant portion starts right at the 22:00 minute mark)

So, Mephala's Realm (presumably her plane of Olibivion, Mephala's Web), Clockwork City, Wrothgar, Murkmire, etc, will have no basic level requirement. You can enter it any time.

1. ZOS: Is this accurate for all new zones?
2. ZOS: Does this retroactively apply to Craglorn or as part of the "basic package" will it remain the same?
3. Players: Do you approve?

I am not against having some zones be open to all levels, but I also like the idea of *some* content (other than what is already out) being available exclusively to those who have reached level 50, both as a reward and a challenge.

Thoughts?

it is a horrendous idea. its clearly a cash grab to pander to new player while screwing the end game players that played at launch. it will dilute all end game activites , challenges and most of all the rewards.

That's the cash shop model in a nutshell. Get users to spend as much money as possible in 2-3 months before they get bored and move on.

tinythinker

Faulgor wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

OK, on today's AMA with the folks like Firor, Sage, Konkle, et al., I asked about this same topic and got a pretty clear response:

"Certainly leveling is one clear way to provide accomplishment, but I think with the Champion System we'll be looking at other ways to provide a great feeling of accomplishment. To be blunt, however, I think the days of gating content by level are probably behind us."

Based on this and another reply to different question, it seems very straightforward that ALL new zones are DLC and all DLC will be scalable to any level.

Yep, and it's the player who will scale, just like Cyrodiil. Makes sense, tbh.

It only makes sense from the stand point that the game is going B2P. You have to be able to sell that DLC to players who just started the game.

From a progression standpoint, it removes a chunk of the anticipation-reward system that makes people want to reach end-game. From a challenge standpoint, it suggests that the content has to be as playable for a level 10 with only a few skills available as it is for a level 50 with a carefully designed and complete build.

I was hoping there might be something like one new zone a year that was level-50 gated or gated behind completing certain quest lines to reward long time players, but the answer is "no".

Faulgor

tinythinker wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

OK, on today's AMA with the folks like Firor, Sage, Konkle, et al., I asked about this same topic and got a pretty clear response:

"Certainly leveling is one clear way to provide accomplishment, but I think with the Champion System we'll be looking at other ways to provide a great feeling of accomplishment. To be blunt, however, I think the days of gating content by level are probably behind us."

Based on this and another reply to different question, it seems very straightforward that ALL new zones are DLC and all DLC will be scalable to any level.

Yep, and it's the player who will scale, just like Cyrodiil. Makes sense, tbh.

It only makes sense from the stand point that the game is going B2P. You have to be able to sell that DLC to players who just started the game.

From a progression standpoint, it removes a chunk of the anticipation-reward system that makes people want to reach end-game. From a challenge standpoint, it suggests that the content has to be as playable for a level 10 with only a few skills available as well as a level 50 with a carefully designed and complete build.

I was hoping there might be something like one new zone a year that was level-50 gated or gated behind completing certain quest lines to reward long time players, but the answer is "no".

Yeah, I meant it made sense from the point of, if you had to do scaling, that's probably how you would do it.
Everything about these changes so far sound more like a change to casual skyrim-with-friends, and away from endgame-centered MMO.

Sallington

Faulgor wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

OK, on today's AMA with the folks like Firor, Sage, Konkle, et al., I asked about this same topic and got a pretty clear response:

"Certainly leveling is one clear way to provide accomplishment, but I think with the Champion System we'll be looking at other ways to provide a great feeling of accomplishment. To be blunt, however, I think the days of gating content by level are probably behind us."

Based on this and another reply to different question, it seems very straightforward that ALL new zones are DLC and all DLC will be scalable to any level.

Yep, and it's the player who will scale, just like Cyrodiil. Makes sense, tbh.

It only makes sense from the stand point that the game is going B2P. You have to be able to sell that DLC to players who just started the game.

From a progression standpoint, it removes a chunk of the anticipation-reward system that makes people want to reach end-game. From a challenge standpoint, it suggests that the content has to be as playable for a level 10 with only a few skills available as well as a level 50 with a carefully designed and complete build.

I was hoping there might be something like one new zone a year that was level-50 gated or gated behind completing certain quest lines to reward long time players, but the answer is "no".

Yeah, I meant it made sense from the point of, if you had to do scaling, that's probably how you would do it.
Everything about these changes so far sound more like a change to casual skyrim-with-friends, and away from endgame-centered MMO.

I agree, and this makes me think that this was their plan all along, to have us pay for beta testing the console version.

Wifeaggro13

tinythinker wrote: »

OK, on today's AMA with the folks like Firor, Sage, Konkle, et al., I asked about this same topic and got a pretty clear response:

"Certainly leveling is one clear way to provide accomplishment, but I think with the Champion System we'll be looking at other ways to provide a great feeling of accomplishment. To be blunt, however, I think the days of gating content by level are probably behind us."

Based on this and another reply to different question, it seems very straightforward that ALL new zones are DLC and all DLC will be scalable to any level.

Good for you Zeni. Don' t gate the content. you think alternate advancement is going to give your game longevity? are you serious. that rudimentary Champions system? it really is rudimentary you guys realize this correct? its a passive increase, there are no unlocks for abilities, no new skill lines opened from it. its nothing. you even said you intended it to be extra but not required for content. I am completely baffled at how you expect me to feel any progress on my chr? you have offered nothing in the way of endgame in the future of this MMO. You do realize your Sub base is in the end game correct? You are rewriting the ruleset of the game we purchased and played for near a year. The removal of VR is a good idea. the champion system is a good idea if it had value to your Chr's power and progression. I maybe missing something here but you have offered really nothing new to the game but a reset that essentially leads no where but to more newbie zones.

This is what happens when bankers take over a dev team, its a damn shame . in just one short year your ready to jump ship and cash out like bioware. Even Rift lasted longer with the intention of being a true MMO. I could careless if you went B2P with a freemium option. At this point it looks like you took the life boats for yourself and let the passengers on your sinking ship

technohic

In a way; this seems very un-MMOish, but to me I think I just might like this. Always have been very casual with PvE and it is usually just a roadblock to me for PvP or maybe just a change of pace for a bit, so if they intend to get the leveling out of my way, I will be happy.

tinythinker

Faulgor wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

OK, on today's AMA with the folks like Firor, Sage, Konkle, et al., I asked about this same topic and got a pretty clear response:

"Certainly leveling is one clear way to provide accomplishment, but I think with the Champion System we'll be looking at other ways to provide a great feeling of accomplishment. To be blunt, however, I think the days of gating content by level are probably behind us."

Based on this and another reply to different question, it seems very straightforward that ALL new zones are DLC and all DLC will be scalable to any level.

Yep, and it's the player who will scale, just like Cyrodiil. Makes sense, tbh.

It only makes sense from the stand point that the game is going B2P. You have to be able to sell that DLC to players who just started the game.

From a progression standpoint, it removes a chunk of the anticipation-reward system that makes people want to reach end-game. From a challenge standpoint, it suggests that the content has to be as playable for a level 10 with only a few skills available as well as a level 50 with a carefully designed and complete build.

I was hoping there might be something like one new zone a year that was level-50 gated or gated behind completing certain quest lines to reward long time players, but the answer is "no".

Yeah, I meant it made sense from the point of, if you had to do scaling, that's probably how you would do it.
Everything about these changes so far sound more like a change to casual skyrim-with-friends, and away from endgame-centered MMO.

Right, which is what I'm concerned about. A group of new players with level 10s cannot complete Craglorn Trials or DSA (as they are now) even with difficulty scaling. They wouldn't have the skills unlocked/leveled nor the experience with the game/those particular characters needed to deal with those kinds of challenges. Which suggests that there won't be any future content of that caliber.

Faulgor

tinythinker wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

OK, on today's AMA with the folks like Firor, Sage, Konkle, et al., I asked about this same topic and got a pretty clear response:

"Certainly leveling is one clear way to provide accomplishment, but I think with the Champion System we'll be looking at other ways to provide a great feeling of accomplishment. To be blunt, however, I think the days of gating content by level are probably behind us."

Based on this and another reply to different question, it seems very straightforward that ALL new zones are DLC and all DLC will be scalable to any level.

Yep, and it's the player who will scale, just like Cyrodiil. Makes sense, tbh.

It only makes sense from the stand point that the game is going B2P. You have to be able to sell that DLC to players who just started the game.

From a progression standpoint, it removes a chunk of the anticipation-reward system that makes people want to reach end-game. From a challenge standpoint, it suggests that the content has to be as playable for a level 10 with only a few skills available as well as a level 50 with a carefully designed and complete build.

I was hoping there might be something like one new zone a year that was level-50 gated or gated behind completing certain quest lines to reward long time players, but the answer is "no".

Yeah, I meant it made sense from the point of, if you had to do scaling, that's probably how you would do it.
Everything about these changes so far sound more like a change to casual skyrim-with-friends, and away from endgame-centered MMO.

Right, which is what I'm concerned about. A group of new players with level 10s cannot complete Craglorn Trials or DSA (as they are now) even with difficulty scaling. They wouldn't have the skills unlocked/leveled nor the experience with the game/those particular characters needed to deal with those kinds of challenges. Which suggests that there won't be any future content of that caliber.

We will probably still see Murkmire, but I wouldn't expect much beyond that, correct. Unless new DLC zones like Wrothgar at least add a new dungeon with a veteran version.

tinythinker

Faulgor wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

OK, on today's AMA with the folks like Firor, Sage, Konkle, et al., I asked about this same topic and got a pretty clear response:

"Certainly leveling is one clear way to provide accomplishment, but I think with the Champion System we'll be looking at other ways to provide a great feeling of accomplishment. To be blunt, however, I think the days of gating content by level are probably behind us."

Based on this and another reply to different question, it seems very straightforward that ALL new zones are DLC and all DLC will be scalable to any level.

Yep, and it's the player who will scale, just like Cyrodiil. Makes sense, tbh.

It only makes sense from the stand point that the game is going B2P. You have to be able to sell that DLC to players who just started the game.

From a progression standpoint, it removes a chunk of the anticipation-reward system that makes people want to reach end-game. From a challenge standpoint, it suggests that the content has to be as playable for a level 10 with only a few skills available as well as a level 50 with a carefully designed and complete build.

I was hoping there might be something like one new zone a year that was level-50 gated or gated behind completing certain quest lines to reward long time players, but the answer is "no".

Yeah, I meant it made sense from the point of, if you had to do scaling, that's probably how you would do it.
Everything about these changes so far sound more like a change to casual skyrim-with-friends, and away from endgame-centered MMO.

Right, which is what I'm concerned about. A group of new players with level 10s cannot complete Craglorn Trials or DSA (as they are now) even with difficulty scaling. They wouldn't have the skills unlocked/leveled nor the experience with the game/those particular characters needed to deal with those kinds of challenges. Which suggests that there won't be any future content of that caliber.

We will probably still see Murkmire

If you mean as a level-gated/level-50-required zone, I hope so, but I really wouldn't count on that.

Kraven

The aim is that all players be equal. Whether you play 20+ hours a week on a PC or 2 hours a month on a console you get to enter new content equally.

Already confirmed content is 100% the same between console and PC. Things like SO and VDSA are just too difficult as they stand. Even PC players the past month have been complaining about the difficulty. In an attempt to make the game "Play the way you want" content has to be brought down to the skill of the highest population.

The new content released is the same with one exception it's purchased as DLC so it has to be available to anyone who purchases it. It has to be a product that doesn't appeal to the top 10% of players but to the average 50%, with accessibility to the lowest 20%. The 20% between average and top don't matter.

So despite the fact they said they were looking at adding more traditional type raiding and more end game content for group+, the likely hood of that happening falls more and more. Blatantly obvious over the past year end game players are never what they cared about, often over looking them completely.

Content designed to be sold has to appeal to the largest market. End game PvE players is not that market.

tinythinker

Kraven wrote: »

The aim is that all players be equal. Whether you play 20+ hours a week on a PC or 2 hours a month on a console you get to enter new content equally.

Already confirmed content is 100% the same between console and PC. Things like SO and VDSA are just too difficult as they stand. Even PC players the past month have been complaining about the difficulty. In an attempt to make the game "Play the way you want" content has to be brought down to the skill of the highest population.

The new content released is the same with one exception it's purchased as DLC so it has to be available to anyone who purchases it. It has to be a product that doesn't appeal to the top 10% of players but to the average 50%, with accessibility to the lowest 20%. The 20% between average and top don't matter.

So despite the fact they said they were looking at adding more traditional type raiding and more end game content for group+, the likely hood of that happening falls more and more. Blatantly obvious over the past year end game players are never what they cared about, often over looking them completely.

Content designed to be sold has to appeal to the largest market. End game PvE players is not that market.

I would agree generally in terms of marketing logic, but prior to today's confirmation I was hoping that possibly some small percent of new content would be geared toward end-game/require more complete characters and experienced players.