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The Markarth DLC and Update 28 base game patch are now available to test on the PTS! Read the full patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/pts/
Paid Beta is over now....can we please have a refund?
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Except you can't tell them what to do with your money, it's an investment in hopes they do what you want, not a promise they are going to fulfill your desires. You aren't buying a part of the company. What they player envisions is only the hopes of what we want to see, we can't force them to do anything, it's their product to do with as they envision. If that doesn't match up with your vision, you unsub and find a different company that matches your vision, or start your own company.
Ever heard the saying "consumer is always right"? Most companies adhere to that, because it is the honest things to do.And linking a forum post about negative feedback doesn't prove anything, as a gamer you should know the loudest voices are the angry ones.
So you really expect majority (or even a significant part) of consumers to want B2P/F2P (it's not like they even asked us), and then wave away all evidence to the contrary?
I think this is what might be happening:
Well considering how many MMOs changed their model, and now their revenue actually increased, says that apparently the consumer is right, they don't want subscription models. And yes, going by forums is a bad idea, not reliable at all. What is more reliable is real world examples, and considering that it is obvious that the subscription model is dying, only being held up by a comparatively few outliers, we can see that the consumer does prefer a non subscription model.
So this kind of dishonest practice has become so commonplace now that it is acceptable? Not in my world.
Also, saying the subscription model is dying is ludicrous, considering the most played MMO out there still has it.
As for what kind of consumers those are that prefer B2P/F2P games...
I could use words cheap & toxic quite a lot. These are the same people that bashed on ESO, on how it "wasn't good enough" to warrant a subscription fee.
Also, I could mention that most people are idiots that don't understand basic concepts (don't be surprised, according to studies human intelligence in general has been on a decline for a while now)
Subscription MMOs tend to draw in smarter (although sometimes when browsing forums I might be inclined to disagree), more dedicated people that understand the benefits of the model.
These are the consumers, not those simple-minded folks that demand free stuff & benefits.Edited by DDuke on January 22, 2015 12:44AM -
Elridge✭✭✭Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a major fan of B2P or F2P games, if it were fully F2P I myself might go find something else to play. However I know I got what I payed for, and they didn't lie to me. I remember that instance of what you said, the dev saying they would rather it burn then go F2PExcept you can't tell them what to do with your money, it's an investment in hopes they do what you want, not a promise they are going to fulfill your desires. You aren't buying a part of the company. What they player envisions is only the hopes of what we want to see, we can't force them to do anything, it's their product to do with as they envision. If that doesn't match up with your vision, you unsub and find a different company that matches your vision, or start your own company.
Ever heard the saying "consumer is always right"? Most companies adhere to that, because it is the honest things to do.And linking a forum post about negative feedback doesn't prove anything, as a gamer you should know the loudest voices are the angry ones.
So you really expect majority (or even a significant part) of consumers to want B2P/F2P (it's not like they even asked us), and then wave away all evidence to the contrary?
I think this is what might be happening:
Ever work in retail? Most customers that quote that are just entitled punks and "think" they are always right because of that saying, when in fact they are wrong, however that's how you are suppose to "treat" your customers, it's not some magical force that automatically makes customers right. I dunno what"the customer is always right" even has to do with honesty? I think you just mean good business.... Note this all started because you called it a scam... which was already proven that it wasn't.... now are you changing the debate saying it's bad business? Because I could agree to that. Hell I would have agreed to that from the get go. Never said it was good business.. just said it wasn't illegal, nor do you deserve your money back.
I never claimed to know what they want, I only claimed you couldn't possibly know based on a thread, and no childish picture will change that. I also said it doesn't matter what they wanted because it is not their intellectual property. However yea, it would be great if they listened a bit more.Edited by Elridge on January 22, 2015 12:48AMAccount Name:@Elridge
"Be kind and generous to the people of Tamriel. Protect the weak, heal the sick, and give to the needy." -Stendarr "Ten Commands of the Nine Divines" -
eisberg✭✭✭Except you can't tell them what to do with your money, it's an investment in hopes they do what you want, not a promise they are going to fulfill your desires. You aren't buying a part of the company. What they player envisions is only the hopes of what we want to see, we can't force them to do anything, it's their product to do with as they envision. If that doesn't match up with your vision, you unsub and find a different company that matches your vision, or start your own company.
Ever heard the saying "consumer is always right"? Most companies adhere to that, because it is the honest things to do.And linking a forum post about negative feedback doesn't prove anything, as a gamer you should know the loudest voices are the angry ones.
So you really expect majority (or even a significant part) of consumers to want B2P/F2P (it's not like they even asked us), and then wave away all evidence to the contrary?
I think this is what might be happening:
Well considering how many MMOs changed their model, and now their revenue actually increased, says that apparently the consumer is right, they don't want subscription models. And yes, going by forums is a bad idea, not reliable at all. What is more reliable is real world examples, and considering that it is obvious that the subscription model is dying, only being held up by a comparatively few outliers, we can see that the consumer does prefer a non subscription model.
So this kind of dishonest practice has become so commonplace now that it is acceptable? Not in my world.
Also, saying the subscription model is dying is ludicrous, considering the most played MMO out there still has it.
As for what kind of consumers those are that prefer B2P/F2P games...
I could use words cheap & toxic quite a lot. These are the same people that bashed on ESO, on how it "wasn't good enough" to warrant a subscription fee.
Also, I could mention that most people are idiots that don't understand basic concepts (don't be surprised, according to studies human intelligence in general has been on a decline for a while now)
Subscription MMOs tend to draw in smarter (although sometimes when browsing forums I might be inclined to disagree), more dedicated people that understand the benefits of the model.
These are the consumers, not those simple-minded folks that demand free stuff & benefits.
I'll come back to comment more, but dinner is ready. But I'll say this, there are 628 Million MMO players world wide, WoW got to 10 million when Draenor (7.4 Million prior) released. They have 1.5% of the MMO player base. I'll let you think about that for a minute.
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a major fan of B2P or F2P games, if it were fully F2P I myself might go find something else to play. However I know I got what I payed for, and they didn't lie to me. I remember that instance of what you said, the dev saying they would rather it burn then go F2PExcept you can't tell them what to do with your money, it's an investment in hopes they do what you want, not a promise they are going to fulfill your desires. You aren't buying a part of the company. What they player envisions is only the hopes of what we want to see, we can't force them to do anything, it's their product to do with as they envision. If that doesn't match up with your vision, you unsub and find a different company that matches your vision, or start your own company.
Ever heard the saying "consumer is always right"? Most companies adhere to that, because it is the honest things to do.And linking a forum post about negative feedback doesn't prove anything, as a gamer you should know the loudest voices are the angry ones.
So you really expect majority (or even a significant part) of consumers to want B2P/F2P (it's not like they even asked us), and then wave away all evidence to the contrary?
I think this is what might be happening:
Ever work in retail? Most customers that quote that are just entitled punks and "think" they are always right because of that saying, when in fact they are wrong, however that's how you are suppose to "treat" your customers, it's not some magical force that automatically makes customers right. I dunno what"the customer is always right" even has to do with honesty? I think you just mean good business.... Note this all started because you called it a scam... which was already proven that it wasn't.... now are you changing the debate saying it's bad business? Because I could agree to that. Hell I would have agreed to that from the get go. Never said it was good business.. just said it wasn't illegal, nor do you deserve your money back.
I never claimed to know what they want, I only claimed you couldn't possibly know based on a thread, and no childish picture will change that. I also said it doesn't matter what they wanted because it is not their intellectual property. However yea, it would be great if they listened a bit more.
Whoa, let's not get all defensive there
I never said it was a scam, nor that I should get my money back (I wouldn't object to that though). What I said was that some people could consider it a scam.
It is a borderline case however (just like other bad practices in gaming industry, such as pre-order bonuses & day-1DLC).
I think we can (perhaps) agree that it is not a scam, but atleast dishonest practice? (Not doing what your consumers want, with the money they have invested)
What I'm curious is, whether you think it should exist in the gaming industry.
I think my opinion is clear (not that anyone cares about it)
Edited by DDuke on January 22, 2015 12:56AM -
Elridge✭✭✭So this kind of dishonest practice has become so commonplace now that it is acceptable? Not in my world.
Also, saying the subscription model is dying is ludicrous, considering the most played MMO out there still has it.
As for what kind of consumers those are that prefer B2P/F2P games...
I could use words cheap & toxic quite a lot. These are the same people that bashed on ESO, on how it "wasn't good enough" to warrant a subscription fee.
Also, I could mention that most people are idiots that don't understand basic concepts (don't be surprised, according to studies human intelligence in general has been on a decline for a while now)
Subscription MMOs tend to draw in smarter (although sometimes when browsing forums I might be inclined to disagree), more dedicated people that understand the benefits of the model.
These are the consumers, not those simple-minded folks that demand free stuff & benefits.
How is changing your business model dishonest? they never said they wouldn't do that. Now if they told us since the get go "no everyone we'll never go b2p/f2p" yea... that would be a lie, and therefore dishonest
the most played MMO that was created a decade ago, their costumers are use to it. The new generation is not. The subscription model is in fact dying, no "new" games can fight against the 10 year old game with an already well established player base, that it got it's grips on a decade ago.
can't debate you with the toxic b2p f2p players or the understanding of basic concepts, those are what scare me with b2p f2p games haha
completely agree with the subscription model drawing in a smarter crowed (however that part about browsing forums is exactly what I was talking about when you cited it)
the op was demanding the money back while already benefiting from a year of playing
Account Name:@Elridge
"Be kind and generous to the people of Tamriel. Protect the weak, heal the sick, and give to the needy." -Stendarr "Ten Commands of the Nine Divines" -
Elridge✭✭✭Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a major fan of B2P or F2P games, if it were fully F2P I myself might go find something else to play. However I know I got what I payed for, and they didn't lie to me. I remember that instance of what you said, the dev saying they would rather it burn then go F2PExcept you can't tell them what to do with your money, it's an investment in hopes they do what you want, not a promise they are going to fulfill your desires. You aren't buying a part of the company. What they player envisions is only the hopes of what we want to see, we can't force them to do anything, it's their product to do with as they envision. If that doesn't match up with your vision, you unsub and find a different company that matches your vision, or start your own company.
Ever heard the saying "consumer is always right"? Most companies adhere to that, because it is the honest things to do.And linking a forum post about negative feedback doesn't prove anything, as a gamer you should know the loudest voices are the angry ones.
So you really expect majority (or even a significant part) of consumers to want B2P/F2P (it's not like they even asked us), and then wave away all evidence to the contrary?
I think this is what might be happening:
Ever work in retail? Most customers that quote that are just entitled punks and "think" they are always right because of that saying, when in fact they are wrong, however that's how you are suppose to "treat" your customers, it's not some magical force that automatically makes customers right. I dunno what"the customer is always right" even has to do with honesty? I think you just mean good business.... Note this all started because you called it a scam... which was already proven that it wasn't.... now are you changing the debate saying it's bad business? Because I could agree to that. Hell I would have agreed to that from the get go. Never said it was good business.. just said it wasn't illegal, nor do you deserve your money back.
I never claimed to know what they want, I only claimed you couldn't possibly know based on a thread, and no childish picture will change that. I also said it doesn't matter what they wanted because it is not their intellectual property. However yea, it would be great if they listened a bit more.
Whoa, let's not get all defensive there
I never said it was a scam, nor that I should get my money back (I wouldn't object to that though). What I said was that some people could consider it a scam.
It is a borderline case however (just like other bad practices in gaming industry, such as pre-order bonuses & day-1DLC).
I think we can (perhaps) agree that it is not a scam, but atleast dishonest practice? (Not doing what your consumers want, with the money they have invested)
What I'm curious is, whether you think it should exist in the gaming industry.
I think my opinion is clear (not that anyone cares about it)
I only got defensive when you got offensive with that picture lol
and truly sorry, I thought you were asking for your money back too, which is my fault, however if you weren't calling it a scam, what was the point in comparing to a scam like you did with the analogy?
Personally, I wouldn't call it "dishonest" so much as just plain bad business. Dishonest meaning they lied to us, which they haven't (in my opinion). However they definitely did some bad business choices, and neglected to do what is probably the majority wish. To be honest they did that from the get go... like with the imperial edition x.x I have it but I just wanted the statue hahaha. I wish they would have opened up Imperial as a playable race to everyone
whether I think what should exist? Games launching P2P then going F2P/B2P?
Edited by Elridge on January 22, 2015 1:09AMAccount Name:@Elridge
"Be kind and generous to the people of Tamriel. Protect the weak, heal the sick, and give to the needy." -Stendarr "Ten Commands of the Nine Divines" -
Korah_Eaglecry✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭So you went to watch a movie in the theater and now that some time later it's on tv for free you want the movie theater to give you your money back? Right, good luck with that.
How about going into a movie theater to see an exclusive movie that was promised never to be shown on TV, which gets shown on TV anyhow?
I'm sure people have got refunds for that kind of incidents, but yeah... ZOS isn't legally obliged to refund anyone and thus probably won't.
Still, atleast try to get your analogies right.
Except the movie theater never promised it would never appear on TV. Only that they had no intention of ever showing it on TV.
Now that Ive seen you post more Im under the impression this is your first MMO.
Welcome to the world of MMO games. Where subscriptions arent guaranteed and F2P and B2P is the only last ditch effort to keep an MMO afloat.
Dont like it? Too bad. Time to move on if you cant accept how things played out.Edited by Korah_Eaglecry on January 22, 2015 1:11AMPenniless Sellsword CompanyCaptain Paramount - Jorrhaq VhentKorith Eaglecry * Enrerion Aedihle * Laerinel Rhaev * Caius Berilius * Seylina Ithvala * H'Vak the GrimjawlTenarei Rhaev * Dazsh Ro Khar * Yynril Rothvani * Bathes-In-Coin * Anaelle Faerniil * Azjani Ma'LesAban Shahid Bakr * Kheshna gra-Gharbuk * Gallisten Bondurant * Etain Maquier * Atsu Kalame * Faulpia SeverinusWhat is better, to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? - Paarthurnax -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a major fan of B2P or F2P games, if it were fully F2P I myself might go find something else to play. However I know I got what I payed for, and they didn't lie to me. I remember that instance of what you said, the dev saying they would rather it burn then go F2PExcept you can't tell them what to do with your money, it's an investment in hopes they do what you want, not a promise they are going to fulfill your desires. You aren't buying a part of the company. What they player envisions is only the hopes of what we want to see, we can't force them to do anything, it's their product to do with as they envision. If that doesn't match up with your vision, you unsub and find a different company that matches your vision, or start your own company.
Ever heard the saying "consumer is always right"? Most companies adhere to that, because it is the honest things to do.And linking a forum post about negative feedback doesn't prove anything, as a gamer you should know the loudest voices are the angry ones.
So you really expect majority (or even a significant part) of consumers to want B2P/F2P (it's not like they even asked us), and then wave away all evidence to the contrary?
I think this is what might be happening:
Ever work in retail? Most customers that quote that are just entitled punks and "think" they are always right because of that saying, when in fact they are wrong, however that's how you are suppose to "treat" your customers, it's not some magical force that automatically makes customers right. I dunno what"the customer is always right" even has to do with honesty? I think you just mean good business.... Note this all started because you called it a scam... which was already proven that it wasn't.... now are you changing the debate saying it's bad business? Because I could agree to that. Hell I would have agreed to that from the get go. Never said it was good business.. just said it wasn't illegal, nor do you deserve your money back.
I never claimed to know what they want, I only claimed you couldn't possibly know based on a thread, and no childish picture will change that. I also said it doesn't matter what they wanted because it is not their intellectual property. However yea, it would be great if they listened a bit more.
Whoa, let's not get all defensive there
I never said it was a scam, nor that I should get my money back (I wouldn't object to that though). What I said was that some people could consider it a scam.
It is a borderline case however (just like other bad practices in gaming industry, such as pre-order bonuses & day-1DLC).
I think we can (perhaps) agree that it is not a scam, but atleast dishonest practice? (Not doing what your consumers want, with the money they have invested)
What I'm curious is, whether you think it should exist in the gaming industry.
I think my opinion is clear (not that anyone cares about it)
I only got defensive when you got offensive with that picture lol
and truly sorry, I thought you were asking for your money back too, which is my fault, however if you weren't calling it a scam, what was the point in comparing to a scam like you did with the analogy?
Personally, I wouldn't call it "dishonest" so much as just plain bad business. Dishonest meaning they lied to us, which they haven't (in my opinion). However they definitely did some bad business choices, and neglected to do what is probably the majority wish. To be honest they did that from the get go... like with the imperial edition x.x I have it but I just wanted the statue hahaha. I wish they would have opened up Imperial as a playable race to everyone
whether I think what should exist? Games launching P2P then going F2P/B2P?
I was saying some people might consider it a scam, because it is a borderline case.
And what I meant by what shouldn't exist: doing things your consumers don't want with their money. So yeah, cashing out to the F2P/B2P crowd as you put it.Edited by DDuke on January 22, 2015 1:14AM -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »So you went to watch a movie in the theater and now that some time later it's on tv for free you want the movie theater to give you your money back? Right, good luck with that.
How about going into a movie theater to see an exclusive movie that was promised never to be shown on TV, which gets shown on TV anyhow?
I'm sure people have got refunds for that kind of incidents, but yeah... ZOS isn't legally obliged to refund anyone and thus probably won't.
Still, atleast try to get your analogies right.
Except the movie theater never promised it would never appear on TV. Only that they had no intention of ever showing it on TV.
Now that Ive seen you post more Im under the impression this is your first MMO.
Welcome to the world of MMO games. Where subscriptions arent guaranteed and F2P and B2P is the only last ditch effort to keep an MMO afloat.
Dont like it? Too bad. Time to move on if you cant accept how things played out.
Nice try.
I played WoW and loved it.
Would be currently playing it (instead of ESO) if people didn't have 7 years worth of experience over me (quit it mid-TBC), and I've heard it's a rather... casual game these days
Before WoW I played Ultima Online & Tibia.
I also tried MMOs such as LOTRO, GW2, SWTOR & Archeage, but found them to be disgusting cash grabs that rewarded people with $$$ instead of people with skills & dedication.
Lastly: I will move on, once there is a decent (new) subscription MMO out there. Nothing good coming up in the close future
I wish CD Projekt Red made a MMO.
That's a company you can still trust.Edited by DDuke on January 22, 2015 1:22AM -
Elridge✭✭✭Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a major fan of B2P or F2P games, if it were fully F2P I myself might go find something else to play. However I know I got what I payed for, and they didn't lie to me. I remember that instance of what you said, the dev saying they would rather it burn then go F2PExcept you can't tell them what to do with your money, it's an investment in hopes they do what you want, not a promise they are going to fulfill your desires. You aren't buying a part of the company. What they player envisions is only the hopes of what we want to see, we can't force them to do anything, it's their product to do with as they envision. If that doesn't match up with your vision, you unsub and find a different company that matches your vision, or start your own company.
Ever heard the saying "consumer is always right"? Most companies adhere to that, because it is the honest things to do.And linking a forum post about negative feedback doesn't prove anything, as a gamer you should know the loudest voices are the angry ones.
So you really expect majority (or even a significant part) of consumers to want B2P/F2P (it's not like they even asked us), and then wave away all evidence to the contrary?
I think this is what might be happening:
Ever work in retail? Most customers that quote that are just entitled punks and "think" they are always right because of that saying, when in fact they are wrong, however that's how you are suppose to "treat" your customers, it's not some magical force that automatically makes customers right. I dunno what"the customer is always right" even has to do with honesty? I think you just mean good business.... Note this all started because you called it a scam... which was already proven that it wasn't.... now are you changing the debate saying it's bad business? Because I could agree to that. Hell I would have agreed to that from the get go. Never said it was good business.. just said it wasn't illegal, nor do you deserve your money back.
I never claimed to know what they want, I only claimed you couldn't possibly know based on a thread, and no childish picture will change that. I also said it doesn't matter what they wanted because it is not their intellectual property. However yea, it would be great if they listened a bit more.
Whoa, let's not get all defensive there
I never said it was a scam, nor that I should get my money back (I wouldn't object to that though). What I said was that some people could consider it a scam.
It is a borderline case however (just like other bad practices in gaming industry, such as pre-order bonuses & day-1DLC).
I think we can (perhaps) agree that it is not a scam, but atleast dishonest practice? (Not doing what your consumers want, with the money they have invested)
What I'm curious is, whether you think it should exist in the gaming industry.
I think my opinion is clear (not that anyone cares about it)
I only got defensive when you got offensive with that picture lol
and truly sorry, I thought you were asking for your money back too, which is my fault, however if you weren't calling it a scam, what was the point in comparing to a scam like you did with the analogy?
Personally, I wouldn't call it "dishonest" so much as just plain bad business. Dishonest meaning they lied to us, which they haven't (in my opinion). However they definitely did some bad business choices, and neglected to do what is probably the majority wish. To be honest they did that from the get go... like with the imperial edition x.x I have it but I just wanted the statue hahaha. I wish they would have opened up Imperial as a playable race to everyone
whether I think what should exist? Games launching P2P then going F2P/B2P?
I was saying some people might consider it a scam, because it is a borderline case.
And what I meant by what shouldn't exist: doing things your consumers don't want with their money. So yeah, cashing out to the F2P/B2P crowd as you put it.
ahh alright I understand
To be clear I think it shouldn't exist, however I also understand it's their property, not mine... I would just leave if they deviated completely from what I desired. I mean if they did what I wanted we would have guild/player houses by now, everyone could play any race at any time (including imperial) hahaha. Now if they told me, we're never going F2P and then did it, I'd probably be mad too, but they haven't.
as a small family business owner, I try to help all of my customers (even if that means breaking my back to do so sometimes) But sometimes they get mad, I could clearly explain things to them, and them go against what I say, and end up screwing things up, and still blaming me. Funny thing is they will say "the customer is always right" I do my best to treat them as such, but sometimes people have unrealistic expectations.
Edited by Elridge on January 22, 2015 1:23AMAccount Name:@Elridge
"Be kind and generous to the people of Tamriel. Protect the weak, heal the sick, and give to the needy." -Stendarr "Ten Commands of the Nine Divines" -
Bouvin✭✭✭✭✭
✭corpse_run wrote: »So let me make sure I get this. You believed the game was beta quality. You paid the subscription. Now they are offering a no sub higher content game with what looks like some really fun new places/aspects down the road and that's the line in the sand for you?
Just think of it this way. Nothing is changing. You pay your sub same as always. Eso is still giving you all the content you wanted to get. But now your getting an allowance and shiny objects to spend it on for free. No chores. O_O
Will there maybe be some turds, sure. But there's already some turds so at least we will also get some new people to keep the game interesting. Hopefully.
I wish I had your naivety... That would make life seem so simple and save me from many grey hair
They are not offering a "higher content game", they are offering a game with even less content updates (as is with every B2P game), just wait and see (I tend to be right about things).
Second, the interesting places they showed? Those were made by our subscriptions, and apparently left unreleased to nickle & dime them later as purchasable DLC.
Disgusting, almost like "Day 1 DLC".
I'm willing to wager Imperial City was ready half a year ago, but they didn't want to release it to reap maximum financial benefit after going B2P.
Utterly disgusting.
And lastly, you are not getting shiny objects for "free", be prepared to pay for anything from costumes to gear boxes/boosters (it will get more & more obtrusive as box sales fall), that are not included with the "subcription".
DLC is included with the subscription. If you sub, you do not pay extra for the DLC. If they change this I, and many others, will leave. But they are pretty clear that DLC is included with the sub.
Again, I have no problems with the cash shop as it stands currently. If they change it and add P2W stuff, I will leave. But it is not sounding P2W thus far.
Really, I am just thankful that it is B2P and not F2P. F2P is horrible because the cash shop is normally even more intrusive. Also, F2P ends up allowing a bunch of *** to create accounts and troll in-game with no intention of staying or contributing to the community. B2P puts a barrier on that.
Would I have rather it stayed as sub? Yeah, probably but the topic of this thread is not whether B2P, F2P or sub is better. The topic of this thread is whether or not we are entitled to refunds and we are not. Not by any stretch of the imagination.
They won't change this.
DLC will still be included with the sub.
The difference is, new content will only be released about once a year instead of every 4-6 weeks like they promised.
So you'll be getting your DLC with your sub alright. But it won't be released very often.
The cash shop on the other hand will have new stuff every couple of weeks.
I'd be surprised if they don't start in with the 50% sales right off the bat.
Already been through this with LoTRO. -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a major fan of B2P or F2P games, if it were fully F2P I myself might go find something else to play. However I know I got what I payed for, and they didn't lie to me. I remember that instance of what you said, the dev saying they would rather it burn then go F2PExcept you can't tell them what to do with your money, it's an investment in hopes they do what you want, not a promise they are going to fulfill your desires. You aren't buying a part of the company. What they player envisions is only the hopes of what we want to see, we can't force them to do anything, it's their product to do with as they envision. If that doesn't match up with your vision, you unsub and find a different company that matches your vision, or start your own company.
Ever heard the saying "consumer is always right"? Most companies adhere to that, because it is the honest things to do.And linking a forum post about negative feedback doesn't prove anything, as a gamer you should know the loudest voices are the angry ones.
So you really expect majority (or even a significant part) of consumers to want B2P/F2P (it's not like they even asked us), and then wave away all evidence to the contrary?
I think this is what might be happening:
Ever work in retail? Most customers that quote that are just entitled punks and "think" they are always right because of that saying, when in fact they are wrong, however that's how you are suppose to "treat" your customers, it's not some magical force that automatically makes customers right. I dunno what"the customer is always right" even has to do with honesty? I think you just mean good business.... Note this all started because you called it a scam... which was already proven that it wasn't.... now are you changing the debate saying it's bad business? Because I could agree to that. Hell I would have agreed to that from the get go. Never said it was good business.. just said it wasn't illegal, nor do you deserve your money back.
I never claimed to know what they want, I only claimed you couldn't possibly know based on a thread, and no childish picture will change that. I also said it doesn't matter what they wanted because it is not their intellectual property. However yea, it would be great if they listened a bit more.
Whoa, let's not get all defensive there
I never said it was a scam, nor that I should get my money back (I wouldn't object to that though). What I said was that some people could consider it a scam.
It is a borderline case however (just like other bad practices in gaming industry, such as pre-order bonuses & day-1DLC).
I think we can (perhaps) agree that it is not a scam, but atleast dishonest practice? (Not doing what your consumers want, with the money they have invested)
What I'm curious is, whether you think it should exist in the gaming industry.
I think my opinion is clear (not that anyone cares about it)
I only got defensive when you got offensive with that picture lol
and truly sorry, I thought you were asking for your money back too, which is my fault, however if you weren't calling it a scam, what was the point in comparing to a scam like you did with the analogy?
Personally, I wouldn't call it "dishonest" so much as just plain bad business. Dishonest meaning they lied to us, which they haven't (in my opinion). However they definitely did some bad business choices, and neglected to do what is probably the majority wish. To be honest they did that from the get go... like with the imperial edition x.x I have it but I just wanted the statue hahaha. I wish they would have opened up Imperial as a playable race to everyone
whether I think what should exist? Games launching P2P then going F2P/B2P?
I was saying some people might consider it a scam, because it is a borderline case.
And what I meant by what shouldn't exist: doing things your consumers don't want with their money. So yeah, cashing out to the F2P/B2P crowd as you put it.
ahh alright I understand
To be clear I think it shouldn't exist, however I also understand it's their property, not mine... I would just leave if they deviated completely from what I desired. I mean if they did what I wanted we would have guild/player houses by now, everyone could play any race at any time (including imperial) hahaha. Now if they told me, we're never going F2P and then did it, I'd probably be mad too, but they haven't.
as a small family business owner, I try to help all of my customers (even if that means breaking my back to do so sometimes) But sometimes they get mad, I could clearly explain things to them, and them go against what I say, and end up screwing things up, and still blaming me. Funny thing is they will say "the customer is always right" I do my best to treat them as such, but sometimes people have unrealistic expectations.
You don't have to tolerate these bad practices by companies, even if it is their property (financed by you).
The tolerance of the people is the only reason they still exist.
Also, this is not about customers being mad at you for no reason, this is about customers being mad at ZOS, because they're doing something they don't want and which is something ZOS doesn't have to do (but still does, because of greed).
People will always have unrealistic expectations, it is up to the service provider to fulfill them as well as possible (instead of the total opposite). -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Bioware? EA happened. I wasn't really surprised
For Zenimax Media Inc (Bethesda Softworks, ZOS, id Software etc), it kind of came out of the bushes (although I was fairly certain this was going to happen after they pulled 6-month subscriptions). -
Djem✭✭✭Scarletblaze wrote: »Without our consent
I wasn't aware ZOS broke into your house and took your money.Glarthir is crazy. Maybe harmless crazy, maybe not.
Dunmer Nightblade, Ebonheart Pact, EU PC Megaserver. -
Elridge✭✭✭@DDuke no I don't have to, I agree, but personally I don't mind B2P "as much"... if it went F2P I might jump ship haha. Show me a better MMO, and I'll check it out lol. The market for them right now, and player base isn't that great. Plus Zenimax still is better then most of the companies out there making MMOs right now.
Heard of H1Z1? The new zombie MMO? The day before it went into beta "Don't worry it wont be pay to win, the items you can buy are just cosmetic".. game launches (in beta) people start getting over powered guns from real cash lol. I can tell you if they don't fix that soon, they will flop. Pretty sure people actually got refunds on that because they straight lied.
yea I was just saying a case where, I did my best, and did everything the customer asked from me. However when my end of the bargain was fulfilled, they were still pissed, quoting "the customer is always right"
Edited by Elridge on January 22, 2015 1:44AMAccount Name:@Elridge
"Be kind and generous to the people of Tamriel. Protect the weak, heal the sick, and give to the needy." -Stendarr "Ten Commands of the Nine Divines" -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@DDuke no I don't have to, I agree, but personally I don't mind B2P "as much"... if it went F2P I might jump ship haha. Show me a better MMO, and I'll check it out lol. The market for them right now, and player base isn't that great. Plus Zenimax still is better then most of the companies out there making MMOs right now.
Heard of H1Z1? The new zombie MMO? The day before it went into beta "Don't worry it wont be pay to win, the items you can buy are just cosmetic".. game launches (in beta) people start getting over powered guns from real cash lol. I can tell you if they don't fix that soon, they will flop. Pretty sure people actually got refunds on that because they straight lied.
yea I was just saying a case where, I did my best, and did everything the customer asked from me. However when my end of the bargain was done fulfilled, they were still pissed, quoting "the customer is always right"
That is kind of exactly why I'm still around here and in the forums: there are no good fresh subscription MMOs out there where I could move to.
It's actually quite conflicting, based on principles & past experiences of B2P/F2P MMOs (essentially the same thing in the end), I'd like to leave right away, but then what would I do with no game to play? First world problems
As or H1Z1, I was keeping an eye on that game (it being something fresh & all), but quickly stopped due to the above mentioned issues...
F2P & B2P models keep ruining so many games that could've been great. -
Lordstarfox✭✭I was actually expecting B2P model eventually, so i bought the game on steam sale couple weeks back. Now i just need to wait and see how cashshop will turn out, it can work if done right or it can fail miserably,so far it sounds good.
Can i have your stuff?Member Since May 28, 2014
No,seriously,i just started the game and could use some gold for bag upgrades (damn they are expensive). Lordstarfox on US server.
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Exstazik✭✭✭✭Sadly...but you can't receive refund due to their policy.We pay money for the game time.All promise about skills/content/etc. not uncluded to license agreement.
P.S>Made topic "What to do to make the game has not passed from b2p to f2p" about my thoughts what is happened and what we will see.
