Spedning more time walking than fighting. Forced to spec all HP?

tunepunk

I've only tried PVP couple of times and I can't say it's really enjoyable. Mainly because you are kind of forced to respec your PvE build to go for as much HP as you can to even stand a chance of surviving a couple of hits.

Even with as much HP as you can get, you need to have lightning fast reactions for self heals, potions, etc to survive.

In PvE my character is specced for quite high mana and stamina since my plan is not to get hit so often using a bow. I have around 1500HP and survive well in most PvE VR content. Jumping in to Cyrodiil i die, die die die, and end up running back to the fight instead of fighting...

Sometimes i get sniped and dead in 1-2-3 shots before i have time to react. Even missing one heal in the middle of a battle I die. Being targeted by several players and there's not even a chance of surviving unless i go all in for Health.

I want to be able to keep a build/spec/gear setup that i'm comfortable when switching from PvE to PvP. I'm comfortable with that playstyle, i do well PvE so i should be doing quite well in PvP as well, but no. It's not enjoyable at all. I woudn't mind to die a lot if i didn't have to walk that far though. It's not enjoyable at all.

Here are some possible suggestions solutions to the problem.

* Grant everyone in Cyrodiil increased HP/Armor, and/or Health Regen. Fights would last longer, but would be more fun. You would actually stand a chance to react, even if you didn't spend all your attribute points in Health. Even when getting hit by several players or skills at once (wich happens a lot) you should be able to at least stand a chance to escape, or self heal. Even escaping doesn't always help, since all projectiles are heat seeking and will find you no matter what direction you go. This would probably promote more build variations and tactics in PvP. People with more Health and armor would still have an edge and could take more damage.

* Add a rez counter. Instead of walking. walking, endless walking back to fight. Please add a counter. 60-90-120 Seconds penalty then you could rez yourself? Why not add a passive in "alliance war" skill line wich would decrease the counter? Hell I'd even sacrifice one of the skills in my build for a "possible to rez if equipped skill". I would even sacrifice my Ultimate to be able to rez on the spot if dead instead of walking, or waiting for a rez.

* Add bonuses or penalties based on how many players in the combat area.
Maybe a Positive bonus could be some kind of adrenaline rush. 1 on 1 would have no effect. 2 on one the effect would increase based on the number number of PvP opponents close to you. Not to make you overpowered but to give you a slightly greater chance of surviving when facing more than one opponent.
Maybe also a penalty that will apply to large groups of players clumped together at the same spot. It would promote people to spread out a bit, or give more tactical advantage to opponents facing a group of people trying to go through a narrow passage.

Anyway. In it's current state it's not enjoyable at all. If i feel to play some PvP i have to respec, change all my gear and all my skills, only to do it again when i want to return to PvE. I don't mind to die easily, that's a tradeoff of a certain build, but to be forced to go all in for HP for PvP battles is not fun, and ruins the whole idea of personal enjoyable builds that you like playing. Or at least make a rez counter.

Thanks. this would make me play a lot more PvP if i could play my usual build.

Roechacca

Etaniel

erm there is already a system that increases your stats when you enter Cyrodil, if you have 1500 hp in PvP, make sure the "battle level" (i think that's what it's called) is activated.

As for the build you can't really expect to have a pve build work perfectly for pvp? You aren't fighting the same enemy, so you should have to adapt a little bit. I sure as hell can't be efficient in trials with my pvp spec, it's the same thing the other way.

You definitely don't have to put all your attribute points in hp though, consider making a different gear set that you put on when you enter Cyrodil, that has dedicated stats for your pvp sessions. Consider getting the wykkyd addon if you find yourself spending too much time changing skills/gear.

If you're walking too much (get a horse^^) then that means you're dying too much. Simply don't wander off alone and have friends nearby to rez you until you are an experienced enough player to be able to play a bit more risky.

Da Sandman

A couple things I noticed....

Add a rez counter.... So your telling me after wiping your group I have camp your body waiting for you to rez yourself? Heck. No.

Add bonuses depending on how much you are outnumber.... Do want to see more crazy 1vX videos? I could only IMAGINE the QQ if they added this in...

PvP and PvE are completely different beasts. The learning curve in cyrodiil is much larger then most would probably imagine. Please please please just find a good group to help you with your build and teach you all sorts of tactics. I know you want to be able to dominate both sides of the coin with one build, but that is simply not realistic. You have PvE builds and you have PvP builds... and that just the way it isssssssssss

Karamis_Vimardon

tunepunk wrote: »

* Grant everyone in Cyrodiil increased HP/Armor, and/or Health Regen.

* Add a rez counter. Instead of walking. walking, endless walking back to fight. Please add a counter. 60-90-120 Seconds penalty then you could rez yourself?

* Add bonuses or penalties based on how many players in the combat area.

1. There's already a buff when you enter Cyrodil.
2. HELL NO! People could just die in keeps, wait for timer, and then they're up again. Endless fights...yay...
3. This already exists (Though it shouldn't, but that's a different can of worms) in the form of the AoE cap. Any more than 6 people in an AoE, only 6 get hit! Great for defense, s**t for offense (Excluding siege, no AoE cap there).

As much as ZOS wants to use the line "Play how you want to", playing how you want to does not mean it will work in every scenario. There are many players in the same boat as you however that do not spec all att points into health and they do fine.

This is not because they are godly players or implying you're crap, just that they have invested hour upon hour in Cyrodil figuring out what works best. Just throw yourself in there, find a PvP guild (With VoIP preferably), talk with other PvPers about what works best for your build. Every player started off not knowing what the hell to do, even the current big names (Crystalized, W'R'X, Annah) started somewhere.

Don't give up so soon, Cyrodil is a magical place filled with dashing streakers, headstrong leapers, falling suns, and I can't think of anything for nightblades.

Come join us, we have sweetrolls

Pathfinder

My V3 Goblin Shaman (Orc/Sorc) has 0 points in health and runs 0 impen. I do get killed with burst damage every once in a while (Lethal Arrow, Venom Arrow, Light Attack, Venom Arrow) mostly while on a horse. I am not sure what your build is, but PvE and PvP builds are not compatible, especially in regards to armor sets and traits.

Best survival mechanism is to run with a group and/or run 4+ pieces of impen if you are not a tanky build. My main defense mechanism is BE and roll/dodge especially when I hear the drums.

ETA: I also run 7 pieces of medium on this toon.

tunepunk

I know that my skill setup works well in PvP, when i do survive. I'm just saying that damage output is too high in PvP compared to players actual health. I also love sniping people from time to time, but it's way to easy to kill someone in 2-3 hits of high damage skills, and also to get killed. Takes out the fun of it.

To die is not the issue, and tactics or skills should help you survive better, but 2-3 hits? in a span of couple of seconds not even give you a chance to heal?

I'm just promoting i slightly higher survivability rate. Even if you miss a heal.

Da Sandman wrote: »

Add a rez counter.... So your telling me after wiping your group I have camp your body waiting for you to rez yourself? Heck. No.

Well if the force is too great and your team wipes that means you should go try another keep. Rezzing wont help you win, only make you wipe again, especially if you're waiting for people to rez. It will take away the boring part of running. Especially when I'm exploring a bit by myself in cyrodiil, doing quests and dungeons.

Da Sandman wrote: »

Add bonuses depending on how much you are outnumber.... Do want to see more crazy 1vX videos? I could only IMAGINE the QQ if they added this in...

I'm just saying a slight increase. Not to make you overpowered, but to give you a few milliseconds more of reaction time. Enough to escape when outmanned instead of insta death.

Ghostbane

tunepunk wrote: »

I'm just saying a slight increase. Not to make you overpowered, but to give you a few milliseconds more of reaction time. Enough to escape when outmanned instead of insta death.

You mean, if outnumbered, get a latency buff? Count me in!

Etaniel

tunepunk wrote: »

I

To die is not the issue, and tactics or skills should help you survive better, but 2-3 hits? in a span of couple of seconds not even give you a chance to heal?

I totally agree that snipe has a ridiculous burst from stealth, and kills ways too fast.

I actually think that all dmg and healing should be toned down as a whole. We shouldn't be able to 2-3 hit even 5-6 hit people, nor should we able to heal from 20 to 90% in 2 seconds.

Thevorpal1

tunepunk wrote: »

I know that my skill setup works well in PvP, when i do survive. I'm just saying that damage output is too high in PvP compared to players actual health. I also love sniping people from time to time, but it's way to easy to kill someone in 2-3 hits of high damage skills, and also to get killed. Takes out the fun of it.

To die is not the issue, and tactics or skills should help you survive better, but 2-3 hits? in a span of couple of seconds not even give you a chance to heal?

I'm just promoting i slightly higher survivability rate. Even if you miss a heal.

They already have something in place that assists with this. Armor traits. Use impenetrable it will help you not get 2-3 shotted, along with running with 1500 health in pvp is not recommended.

On my NB I run over 3k+ health, 1400+ magic, and 2000+ stamina and have no problem surviving. I die to a good gank, and to a zerg, but my survivability is in my favor because I prepaired for it to be in my favor.

I have the good pvp traits on my armor, I use food buffs, I adapt to scenerios, and dieing does not *** me off, it makes me more determined to not make the same mistake I made to die in the first place barring any game bug that is outside of my control. (And even in that scenerio I adapt, invisible pots, shadowy desguise (buggy but ok), vamp mist form, hiding behind a tree (lol)

I do whatever it takes.

Things that help me deliniate my pvp gear, and skills from my pve gear and skills is Wykkids outfitter for ease of equipping and unequipping skills and gear for different scenerios (pve/pvp)

tunepunk

markgd88nrb18_ESO wrote: »

[*] HELL NO! People could just die in keeps, wait for timer, and then they're up again. Endless fights...yay...

Well they could just port you away a little bit. Have a few spawning points a bit closer, maybe at some nearby landmarks? Fairly close to the keep you are attacking. Most of the time if I die i just think... to myself... whatever...I'm not running all the way again, and leave my team to their fate and let them "have all the fun".

Either way... the fighting/walking ratio is way off during sieges at least, and not fun, the need to figure out some solution to that problem... I don't mind to die often as long as i don't have to walk. So far, that's not my cup of tea. I rather be playing other content then engage in PvP.

Like i said earlier. I could easily sacrifice a skill slot (maybe ultimate) for the possibility to rez in PvP. Some people would probably not want to waste that precious skill slot, but I would. At least the option is there..

Roechacca

Buy a horse . Feed it everyday . Come pvp next month .

Pathfinder

tunepunk wrote: »

markgd88nrb18_ESO wrote: »

[*] HELL NO! People could just die in keeps, wait for timer, and then they're up again. Endless fights...yay...

Well they could just port you away a little bit. Have a few spawning points a bit closer, maybe at some nearby landmarks? Fairly close to the keep you are attacking. Most of the time if I die i just think... to myself... whatever...I'm not running all the way again, and leave my team to their fate and let them "have all the fun".

Either way... the fighting/walking ratio is way off during sieges at least, and not fun, the need to figure out some solution to that problem... I don't mind to die often as long as i don't have to walk. So far, that's not my cup of tea. I rather be playing other content then engage in PvP.

Like i said earlier. I could easily sacrifice a skill slot (maybe ultimate) for the possibility to rez in PvP. Some people would probably not want to waste that precious skill slot, but I would. At least the option is there..

What is your current build? Race/Class/Armor/Level etc.

Etaniel

tunepunk wrote: »

Well they could just port you away a little bit. Have a few spawning points a bit closer, maybe at some nearby landmarks? Fairly close to the keep you are attacking.

No. If i kill someone attacking or defending a keep, i expect to actually achieve something and make some progress in the siege/defense. If everyone is back 30 seconds later then what's the point in killing them? That's also why i'm against bringing back camps.

Getting killed and having to ride back generates frustration. Frustration is good, it makes you strive to avoid your previous mistakes, improve yourself, and the satisfaction you get from achieving victory is far superior

Lorkhan

i agree that spending more time walking than fighting is really boring. thats why i miss the foward camps.

Jahosefat

To OP, there is a reason they call builds like yours "glass cannons". Blocking/roll dodging are much more important to your survival in PVP than PVE. Also learning the "territory" helps; ex. where gankers are likely to be with the current arrangement of the map etc. that just takes time to learn.

tunepunk

Thevorpal1 wrote: »

They already have something in place that assists with this. Armor traits. Use impenetrable it will help you not get 2-3 shotted, along with running with 1500 health in pvp is not recommended.

Well right now I'm using Divines traits for other bonuses. It feels like I'm forced to use that trait in order to survive? so all of the PvP players will end up using a handful of gear, and a handful of builds, because all other setups are useless in PvP?

Also turnes out my main source of self heal (Critical surge) not very usable in PvP since most people are forced to wear impenetrable to survive?

Like i said, all classes are using similar builds, similar gear. Everyone use the most PvP efficient skills, because the designers intended it to be that way? I don't think so. I don't think the designers was thinking... Hey... let's make only a couple of skills/builds and gears usable in PvP. Let's just leave everyone who doesn't follow the most PvP efficient builds/gear to die in 2-3 hits...

I doubt it is intended. That's probably just community ended up that way.

Let's say they introduced a skill that bypassed the impenetrable trait, if slotted. Everyone would be using it. And impenetrable would suddenly become a useless trait in PvP. I don't mind optimizing builds but there's not enough counters. Let's hope future "Spellmaking" will resolve some of that, because there's not much counters.

Would be great to create my owns spells like. Bypass impentrable, reduce healing. Immune to reflect. you would see a lot more "roles". Maybe someone would be specialized in shutting down healers, taking down snipers, draining magicka from casters, etc etc. You could find a role on the battlefield homing in on specific targets, rather than using the most PvP efficient gear and builds because otherwize you die.

tunepunk

Pathfinder wrote: »

What is your current build? Race/Class/Armor/Level etc.

V10 Kajit Sorcerer using mainly Bow.
Main build for PvP

1st. magnum shot, streak, bombard/poison arrow, critical surge, inner light. Flawless dawnbreaker. (used for 1on1)

2nd. snipe, streak, lightning flood, critical surge, inner light. Flawless Dawnbreaker (used in groups/seiges)

Wearing 2 piece light, 5 piece medium. Divines trait with crit dmg mundus stone.

Around 2000 Magicka, 1600Hp, 1600 Stamina. Unbuffed from food etc.

Usually heals from critical surge will suffice, if not... potions or stay close to healer.

Pretty solid DPS/Survivability build in PVE. should be working well i PvP i suppose.

Agrippa_Invisus

tunepunk wrote: »

Pathfinder wrote: »

What is your current build? Race/Class/Armor/Level etc.

Wearing 2 piece light, 5 piece medium. Divines trait with crit dmg mundus stone.

Around 2000 Magicka, 1600Hp, 1600 Stamina. Unbuffed from food etc.

I think I found your problem.

tunepunk

Etaniel wrote: »

Getting killed and having to ride back generates frustration. Frustration is good, it makes you strive to avoid your previous mistakes, improve yourself, and the satisfaction you get from achieving victory is far superior

It would also be very frustrating meeting a too powerful force wiping over and over even if you have to respawn closely. Eventually you would give up, if you don't manage to get enough people to join the fight.

And also. Persistance, and longer fights are fun. I'd rather have playing a 2-3 hour seige for 1 keep, die countless of times than spend my whole eveneing running from keep to keep.

Thevorpal1

tunepunk wrote: »

Thevorpal1 wrote: »

They already have something in place that assists with this. Armor traits. Use impenetrable it will help you not get 2-3 shotted, along with running with 1500 health in pvp is not recommended.

Well right now I'm using Divines traits for other bonuses. It feels like I'm forced to use that trait in order to survive? so all of the PvP players will end up using a handful of gear, and a handful of builds, because all other setups are useless in PvP?

Also turnes out my main source of self heal (Critical surge) not very usable in PvP since most people are forced to wear impenetrable to survive?

Like i said, all classes are using similar builds, similar gear. Everyone use the most PvP efficient skills, because the designers intended it to be that way? I don't think so. I don't think the designers was thinking... Hey... let's make only a couple of skills/builds and gears usable in PvP. Let's just leave everyone who doesn't follow the most PvP efficient builds/gear to die in 2-3 hits...

I doubt it is intended. That's probably just community ended up that way.

Let's say they introduced a skill that bypassed the impenetrable trait, if slotted. Everyone would be using it. And impenetrable would suddenly become a useless trait in PvP. I don't mind optimizing builds but there's not enough counters. Let's hope future "Spellmaking" will resolve some of that, because there's not much counters.

Would be great to create my owns spells like. Bypass impentrable, reduce healing. Immune to reflect. you would see a lot more "roles". Maybe someone would be specialized in shutting down healers, taking down snipers, draining magicka from casters, etc etc. You could find a role on the battlefield homing in on specific targets, rather than using the most PvP efficient gear and builds because otherwize you die.

I was giving you advice on how to survive with the current pvp meta. If you don't want to heed any advice and get stomped in pvp, that's your call.

This went from true game advice to theory crafting.

Good luck.

Roechacca

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

tunepunk wrote: »

Pathfinder wrote: »

What is your current build? Race/Class/Armor/Level etc.

Wearing 2 piece light, 5 piece medium. Divines trait with crit dmg mundus stone.

Around 2000 Magicka, 1600Hp, 1600 Stamina. Unbuffed from food etc.

I think I found your problem.

Ya that's pretty low .

tunepunk

roechacca wrote: »

Ya that's pretty low .

Maybe as someone said I didn't klick the battle level? I have to check later.

MiyaTheUnbroken

Depending on buffs I run around 2k health, sometimes as low as 1.5. I have no health glyphs and no points in health. I die super fast when I'm spotted and often my death recap only shows 2 or 3 hits. Despite this I still usually have a good time in Cyrodiil.

You just need to learn how to play your build. If you have low health, you need to understand you are a target. They can see your health and anything below 2.5 is like a walking billboard saying "Please snipe me." This means you need to go unseen. Stay in stealth as much as possible, stand on top of other players, hide in the landscape.

Also remember if you're getting sniped for insane amounts of damage, that sniper probably has very little health as well. Kill him. Close the gap and slaughter him. Also remember snipers run on stamina; drain that ***.

I know it seems like you have to follow a certain pattern or build in Cyrodiil, but you really don't. Most people do, because they are boring and lame, but you don't have to. There are always people doing whatever they want and finding a way to make it work.

Finally, keep in mind that everything will be changing in 1.6. What's hip today, might become passe.

Da Sandman

tunepunk wrote: »

I know that my skill setup works well in PvP, when i do survive. I'm just saying that damage output is too high in PvP compared to players actual health. I also love sniping people from time to time, but it's way to easy to kill someone in 2-3 hits of high damage skills, and also to get killed. Takes out the fun of it.

To die is not the issue, and tactics or skills should help you survive better, but 2-3 hits? in a span of couple of seconds not even give you a chance to heal?

I'm just promoting i slightly higher survivability rate. Even if you miss a heal.

Da Sandman wrote: »

Add a rez counter.... So your telling me after wiping your group I have camp your body waiting for you to rez yourself? Heck. No.

Well if the force is too great and your team wipes that means you should go try another keep. Rezzing wont help you win, only make you wipe again, especially if you're waiting for people to rez. It will take away the boring part of running. Especially when I'm exploring a bit by myself in cyrodiil, doing quests and dungeons.

Da Sandman wrote: »

Add bonuses depending on how much you are outnumber.... Do want to see more crazy 1vX videos? I could only IMAGINE the QQ if they added this in...

I'm just saying a slight increase. Not to make you overpowered, but to give you a few milliseconds more of reaction time. Enough to escape when outmanned instead of insta death.

-Don't get me wrong, I get nuked by those bows on the reg. But they better one shot me, cause when if I get my shields up GG. I know people complain about bows doing too much damage, but lets be real with some of the weapon power specs these guys are running they SHOULD be hitting for atleast 2k on dresses. They are in pure nuke mode. Pure nuke mode makes em pretty squishy.

-I won't rez and go to another keep, if my full raid died on the flags we would wait to rez ourselves up and do that dance again. Want to fight all night on fare's flags? Cause this is how you would fight all night on fare's flags. It would be terrible.

-I just saw @blakestaton 1v12 some nubs last night and murder them all. I can only imagine how much more he is going to get reported for being OP if buffs scaled like this somehow. Sounds like you just want a surefire way to not die when you are outnumbered. Instead of completely rewriting the game, how about you find a good group and learn? People have hundreds probably even thousands of hours in cyrodiil perfectly their builds and tactics.... to work in a buff like that so anyone can get away is a smack in the face to the homies who have put the time in.

Sorry if I came off as rude just trying to enlighten some peeps.

Scamandros

tunepunk wrote: »

Thevorpal1 wrote: »

They already have something in place that assists with this. Armor traits. Use impenetrable it will help you not get 2-3 shotted, along with running with 1500 health in pvp is not recommended.

Well right now I'm using Divines traits for other bonuses. It feels like I'm forced to use that trait in order to survive? so all of the PvP players will end up using a handful of gear, and a handful of builds, because all other setups are useless in PvP?

Also turnes out my main source of self heal (Critical surge) not very usable in PvP since most people are forced to wear impenetrable to survive?

Like i said, all classes are using similar builds, similar gear. Everyone use the most PvP efficient skills, because the designers intended it to be that way? I don't think so. I don't think the designers was thinking... Hey... let's make only a couple of skills/builds and gears usable in PvP. Let's just leave everyone who doesn't follow the most PvP efficient builds/gear to die in 2-3 hits...

I doubt it is intended. That's probably just community ended up that way.

Let's say they introduced a skill that bypassed the impenetrable trait, if slotted. Everyone would be using it. And impenetrable would suddenly become a useless trait in PvP. I don't mind optimizing builds but there's not enough counters. Let's hope future "Spellmaking" will resolve some of that, because there's not much counters.

Would be great to create my owns spells like. Bypass impentrable, reduce healing. Immune to reflect. you would see a lot more "roles". Maybe someone would be specialized in shutting down healers, taking down snipers, draining magicka from casters, etc etc. You could find a role on the battlefield homing in on specific targets, rather than using the most PvP efficient gear and builds because otherwize you die.

Well you can look at it the other way. Why are you forced to run divines? Are those buffs so important that you cant possibly take a couple off for impen? Sounds like your pve build is whats restricting you, not other people's builds

Subtomik

All your points in health is a great way to be useless. You might as well just be a 4k HP punching bag.

TheBull

Cyrodiil is a lot faster the pve content OP. In fact it's so fast you MUST be able to anticipate. Learning how to anticipate comes with practice.

As far as HP 3k is a good starting point.. You'll meet some very skilled players running with less than 2500.

Tripwyr

TheBull wrote: »

As far as HP 3k is a good starting point.. You'll meet some very skilled players running with less than 2500.

This. Many/most of Alacrity runs ~3.1-3.5k, some of us run as low as 2500 (Pixy was a prime example before he quit). Generally 3.2k, 500 impenetrable is your safe spot until you become more comfortable with your class/playstyle/build.

GorraShatan

A few small things:

- the impenetrable trait helps a lot (this will matter less after 1.6)

- try to join a group, ideally one with TS. Decent groups are good at resurrecting each other.

- don't charge in too far ahead. People can't resurrect you if they can't get to you.

- food is your friend. Blue food for either HP/stam or HP/magicka appropriate to your level is a must. HP/stam is preferable.

- when in doubt, hold down block.

- "bash" your way out of stuns

- get a horse and feed it an apple every day. If ZOS was smart they'd let you buy a horse with AP, but yeah...

-make sure you have some skills on your bars for survivability. Damage shields, self heals, and skills to help you escape. Sometimes you don't need to win a fight, just survive long enough for your friends to show up, or at least get your body into a spot where they can res it.

Hope that helps.

KaneK899ub17_ESO

I definitely can't do PvE with my PvP build. Not enough DPS. PvP is primarily focused around utility, CC and survivability. PvE is primarily focused around DPS, HPS and effective health. These things clash. With over 300 skill points, though, I easily have enough for my full PvE and PvP builds and just use a different set of gear when I have to PvE. In PvP you need Impenetrable, while Infused/Divines works better in PvE and you can easily stack HP enchants on your PvP set while maintaining your high resource pools.

Res timers would make for infinite fights as people just die in/near a keep then res and continue the attack. Even dying at a milegate and ressing to continue the push and already being halfway to a keep you're trying to take or defend would be an issue, though. Can't see this working out.

Some people here can 1v5 and take down a person or two, sometimes even a half a zerg WITHOUT an outnumbered buff. This would only induce rage. Fights can also be lengthy as it is, even outnumbered. I can't imagine what a 1v3 would look like if my HP shot up to 4k and I was basically a mini-emp every time I go solo.

PvP is harder than PvE. That's a given. You're fighting thinking, min/maxing players instead of predictable, scripted events. The key? Practice. Just like your PvE rotation, you have to practice surviving and killing in PvP. It helps to build for the situation, too. You can't expect to run a PvE-focused build and be an awesome PvPer.