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A lack of roleplay?
Firellight
✭✭✭
I'm talking about the entire MMORPG genre when I mean roleplay. ESO does it rather well, but only lasts so long. When an MMORPG is released, the universe is immersive for about an hour, then players are grinding for gear and endlessly killing each other. Communities that start exploring end up rushing through content, rolling the most powerful builds, and exploiting whatever possible... all to reach the highest damage output and grind to the top of a leaderboard, that imo, has very little relevance to a person's life.
MMORPGs these days are lacking initiative and agency, and overall roleplay. I go play any MMO and people are running around rushing content, meanwhile I want to be an elf, but it means nothing.
Developers attempt to entertain their audiences with neat stories, but the players are left to go treasure hunting in the corners of said story. Attention developers: try not to overincentivize your content; people are more inclined to go for the incentives and brush off the content, which is likely to be a burden to reach the players' goals.
~ First five zones + Coldharbour = Content = Burden = Grind.
~ Player accomplishes endgame.
~ Cadwell's Silver + Gold = Content = Burden = Grind + Grind.
~ Player's who want endgame are disappointed.
~ Players reach real endgame + Craglorn.
~ Players who have not reached endgame yet will follow those who already did.
~ New characters rush through same content.
~ Repeat.
If we are going to help ESO and other MMOs be more successful, it's not only going to take complaints and suggestions for more content, players are going to have to change the MMORPG mindset, and how MMORPGs are played. We need more roleplay, and developers are going to have to help reflect role gameplay.
In other words, instead of having a player play through a story, the story must play through the player. Now I'm not saying we should have an Emperor government system, I mean that the lore should evolve wherever the players take it. It would be a good start to better MMOs.
Just me rambling. Any thoughts?
Edited by Firellight on December 27, 2014 12:10AM MMORPGs these days are lacking initiative and agency, and overall roleplay. I go play any MMO and people are running around rushing content, meanwhile I want to be an elf, but it means nothing.
Developers attempt to entertain their audiences with neat stories, but the players are left to go treasure hunting in the corners of said story. Attention developers: try not to overincentivize your content; people are more inclined to go for the incentives and brush off the content, which is likely to be a burden to reach the players' goals.
~ First five zones + Coldharbour = Content = Burden = Grind.
~ Player accomplishes endgame.
~ Cadwell's Silver + Gold = Content = Burden = Grind + Grind.
~ Player's who want endgame are disappointed.
~ Players reach real endgame + Craglorn.
~ Players who have not reached endgame yet will follow those who already did.
~ New characters rush through same content.
~ Repeat.
If we are going to help ESO and other MMOs be more successful, it's not only going to take complaints and suggestions for more content, players are going to have to change the MMORPG mindset, and how MMORPGs are played. We need more roleplay, and developers are going to have to help reflect role gameplay.
In other words, instead of having a player play through a story, the story must play through the player. Now I'm not saying we should have an Emperor government system, I mean that the lore should evolve wherever the players take it. It would be a good start to better MMOs.
Just me rambling. Any thoughts?
9
-
Beowulf_McCallum✭✭✭We need more ways to develop our characters that aren't just combat based TBH.Edited by Beowulf_McCallum on December 27, 2014 1:51AM9 -
Rev Rielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭Beowulf_McCallum wrote: »We need more ways to develop our characters that aren't just combat based TBH.
Yes I largely agree with this. Just as an aside this is one issue that concerns me about the Champion System, but time will tell in that regard.
In relation to the OP though, I do not play - nor never have - like you are describing. I am aware of many people that do so though. The vast majority seem to in fact.
Honestly, the rewards should never be the reason for doing anything (It's a game after all; a bit of fun), just a nice little bonus at the end. Play the game in the proverbial 'journey not the destination' manner, as cliche as it might sound, is really is very true. One just has to do so in an honest fashion and the enjoyment is there to be had. Treat any game like a 'job' or a 'grind' and soon enough it will turn out to be just as much fun as one.Edited by Rev Rielle on December 27, 2014 3:25AMIf you can be anything, be kind.4 -
dietlime✭✭✭✭There's no time for it. When am I supposed to roleplay when playing for an entire day got me half the first VR level?Edited by dietlime on December 27, 2014 3:51AM2 -
Lynx7386✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This is something that SWG had that no other MMORPG has matched to date.
In (pre-CU/oldschool) Starwars Galaxies, there were something like two or three dozen 'professions'. There were no classes, everyone started off the same way - on a planet empty handed. The professions were not all combat based: some were combat (teras kasi, fencing, swordsman, pikeman for melee, carbineer, pistoleer, rifleman, bounty hunter, commando for ranged, so on and so forth), some were crafting based (armorsmith, weaponsmith, droidsmith, starship engineers, etc.), some were buff/RP based (dancers, musicians, etc.), some were a mix (ranger, combat medic, creature handler, etc.).
A player in SWG might spec into pistoleer for those days when they really want to fight something, but could otherwise have the majority of their points in, say, dancing - where they would spend most of their time on stage, talking to other players, and through their dancing skills add buffs to the players who wanted to go out and kill things.
The skill system wasnt the only thing that made SWG great, though. For the most part, there werent any endgame dungeons, there werent any real quests, there werent any gear sets or 'best in slot items'. Crafters made, with a few very small exceptions, every piece of gear or item you could get in the game. They made your armor, they made your weapons, they made your clothes, your speeder, your mounts, your pets, your house, your droids, and even the starship you flew. EVERYTHING was crafted and player-made. Even entire cities in the game were created by players, run by players, had their own governments and militaries, so on and so forth.
Sandbox environments create roleplay. When you give the players the ability to actually design and run their own content in the game, their creativity fuels social interaction. The problem with every other MMO on the market now is that they want you to run quests made by the developers, live in cities made by the developers, progress through content made by the developers, use items made by the developers, they want everything on literal rails so that everyone is forced into doing the exact same thing all the time and nobody can wander off. That kills social interaction and, by extension, roleplay.
In an MMO like this, you spend hours upon hours grinding some endgame raid so you can get one drop that will make you better than everyone else. In SWG, even if you found the absolute best weaponsmith on the server, and he crafted the absolute best weapon for you by some ungodly luck, you'd still only have a marginal advantage over other players in combat, and you would always have another combat style that could best you. Even the jedi had their matches with bounty hunters, teras kasi artists, and commandos. Nobody could ever be 'the best', and that limitation encouraged more people to be 'the normal everyday guy' in the game. People didnt want to be the one hero that could single handedly defeat entire armies, they wanted to be the mayor, the captain of the guard, the watchman, the dancer or musician in the cantina down the street, the master architect who designed and built homes, or hell, maybe just the smuggler trying to make some cash by selling illegal stims.
Modern gaming has become, at every turn, an e-sport, and the constantly competetive environment therein does not promote nonaggressive social interaction between players.PS4 / NA
M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank10 -
reagen_lionel✭✭✭✭This is something that SWG had that no other MMORPG has matched to date.
In (pre-CU/oldschool) Starwars Galaxies, there were something like two or three dozen 'professions'. There were no classes, everyone started off the same way - on a planet empty handed. The professions were not all combat based: some were combat (teras kasi, fencing, swordsman, pikeman for melee, carbineer, pistoleer, rifleman, bounty hunter, commando for ranged, so on and so forth), some were crafting based (armorsmith, weaponsmith, droidsmith, starship engineers, etc.), some were buff/RP based (dancers, musicians, etc.), some were a mix (ranger, combat medic, creature handler, etc.).
A player in SWG might spec into pistoleer for those days when they really want to fight something, but could otherwise have the majority of their points in, say, dancing - where they would spend most of their time on stage, talking to other players, and through their dancing skills add buffs to the players who wanted to go out and kill things.
The skill system wasnt the only thing that made SWG great, though. For the most part, there werent any endgame dungeons, there werent any real quests, there werent any gear sets or 'best in slot items'. Crafters made, with a few very small exceptions, every piece of gear or item you could get in the game. They made your armor, they made your weapons, they made your clothes, your speeder, your mounts, your pets, your house, your droids, and even the starship you flew. EVERYTHING was crafted and player-made. Even entire cities in the game were created by players, run by players, had their own governments and militaries, so on and so forth.
Sandbox environments create roleplay. When you give the players the ability to actually design and run their own content in the game, their creativity fuels social interaction. The problem with every other MMO on the market now is that they want you to run quests made by the developers, live in cities made by the developers, progress through content made by the developers, use items made by the developers, they want everything on literal rails so that everyone is forced into doing the exact same thing all the time and nobody can wander off. That kills social interaction and, by extension, roleplay.
In an MMO like this, you spend hours upon hours grinding some endgame raid so you can get one drop that will make you better than everyone else. In SWG, even if you found the absolute best weaponsmith on the server, and he crafted the absolute best weapon for you by some ungodly luck, you'd still only have a marginal advantage over other players in combat, and you would always have another combat style that could best you. Even the jedi had their matches with bounty hunters, teras kasi artists, and commandos. Nobody could ever be 'the best', and that limitation encouraged more people to be 'the normal everyday guy' in the game. People didnt want to be the one hero that could single handedly defeat entire armies, they wanted to be the mayor, the captain of the guard, the watchman, the dancer or musician in the cantina down the street, the master architect who designed and built homes, or hell, maybe just the smuggler trying to make some cash by selling illegal stims.
Modern gaming has become, at every turn, an e-sport, and the constantly competetive environment therein does not promote nonaggressive social interaction between players.
Something that I noticed and disliked about mmos and what they've mostly become for a looooong time.2 -
Harleyquincey✭✭✭I could write dozens of pages on this subject as I was a player of Ultima Online for 10 years (pretty much spot on), first on official servers and later on custom RP servers where talking OOC was a bannable offense.
Let me instead put this very simple:
It's a comatose patient. If you want to revive the experience of meaningful RP you will have to do it yourself and start it. Don't rely on others, be it developers or players, to do it for you and to do it right. Think this is impossible? Nope. Let me give you an actual example:
Ultima Online had this problem as well to some degree. RP was dying out when a large fraction of RP-interested players, some dozen oldschool RP veterans and some random supporters united in a cooperative and formed several guilds. With these they took over a city that few players usually visited and declared it RP-country. They made up a guild that focused on playing city guards for example, other guilds were nefarious evildoers, others were forming this or that (myself? I invented one of the first player-run brothels in western MMOs.. yeah I do live in the gutter and it's comfy, thanks) and in the end there was a good dozen of guilds and around 130-150 players constantly coming to the same town for RP. We even invented a system how to see if someone's RPing or taking a break - whoever was taking abreak simply put on a green robe and got ignored from there on until he removed it.
Not a single MMO I have seen, heard of or read about could match the depth of the RP in UO from what I know, it involved players letting themselves be taken captive, character deaths, crippling, heroic battles, lots and lots of tavern rp (and quite some brothel activity!) and pretty much everything else befitting its setting. The only issue it had was some Mary Sues and Marty Stus, aka the I-am-so-speshul-my-mommy-said-I-can-be-anything-so-I-became-an-attention-seeker (I'm looking at you 20% drow, 40% dwarven, 10% human, 25% orc and 5% vampire breed mixes.......but hey one can always ignore such players).
Be the change you want to see in the world.
Edited by Harleyquincey on December 28, 2014 9:40AMEU Server
Clavius Lydoris Probus - Imperial Dragonknight Tank
Co-Founder of [Black Manticore Brigade]
Proud member of [Sigma Draconis] and [House Zar]5 -
Sindala✭✭✭✭✭You'll notice most games now try to drop the 'RPG' from the MMORPG tag as it cuts out all that pesky problem and means they have a vastly reduced workload.Being First is not the prize, it just mean's everyone can stab you in the back.2 -
MornaBaine✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This is something that SWG had that no other MMORPG has matched to date.
In (pre-CU/oldschool) Starwars Galaxies, there were something like two or three dozen 'professions'. There were no classes, everyone started off the same way - on a planet empty handed. The professions were not all combat based: some were combat (teras kasi, fencing, swordsman, pikeman for melee, carbineer, pistoleer, rifleman, bounty hunter, commando for ranged, so on and so forth), some were crafting based (armorsmith, weaponsmith, droidsmith, starship engineers, etc.), some were buff/RP based (dancers, musicians, etc.), some were a mix (ranger, combat medic, creature handler, etc.).
A player in SWG might spec into pistoleer for those days when they really want to fight something, but could otherwise have the majority of their points in, say, dancing - where they would spend most of their time on stage, talking to other players, and through their dancing skills add buffs to the players who wanted to go out and kill things.
The skill system wasnt the only thing that made SWG great, though. For the most part, there werent any endgame dungeons, there werent any real quests, there werent any gear sets or 'best in slot items'. Crafters made, with a few very small exceptions, every piece of gear or item you could get in the game. They made your armor, they made your weapons, they made your clothes, your speeder, your mounts, your pets, your house, your droids, and even the starship you flew. EVERYTHING was crafted and player-made. Even entire cities in the game were created by players, run by players, had their own governments and militaries, so on and so forth.
Sandbox environments create roleplay. When you give the players the ability to actually design and run their own content in the game, their creativity fuels social interaction. The problem with every other MMO on the market now is that they want you to run quests made by the developers, live in cities made by the developers, progress through content made by the developers, use items made by the developers, they want everything on literal rails so that everyone is forced into doing the exact same thing all the time and nobody can wander off. That kills social interaction and, by extension, roleplay.
In an MMO like this, you spend hours upon hours grinding some endgame raid so you can get one drop that will make you better than everyone else. In SWG, even if you found the absolute best weaponsmith on the server, and he crafted the absolute best weapon for you by some ungodly luck, you'd still only have a marginal advantage over other players in combat, and you would always have another combat style that could best you. Even the jedi had their matches with bounty hunters, teras kasi artists, and commandos. Nobody could ever be 'the best', and that limitation encouraged more people to be 'the normal everyday guy' in the game. People didnt want to be the one hero that could single handedly defeat entire armies, they wanted to be the mayor, the captain of the guard, the watchman, the dancer or musician in the cantina down the street, the master architect who designed and built homes, or hell, maybe just the smuggler trying to make some cash by selling illegal stims.
Modern gaming has become, at every turn, an e-sport, and the constantly competetive environment therein does not promote nonaggressive social interaction between players.
I would SO love to see ESO be more like this and not just another MMO. There NEEDS to be other ways to progress than combat. There need to be professions that do not involve killing. And they need to be FUN! I want Tamriel to feel like a real world. But if all I ever do is run from point to point killing monsters and assorted baddies it's just another FPS that happens to have other people playing it at the same time. Boring!
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!4 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ooo... non-combat professions? I would looove to see that come to ESO someday... could be made like the fighters/mages guild, something people can pick for flavor enhancement... bards guild to play music (giving group buff, maybe), dancers guild for entertainment (more motivation buff?), messengers guild (giving daily "deliver mail" quests all over the world), merchants guild (would be a place to hide an auction house), prospectors/farmers/woodworkers guild (collect and refine crafting materials and stuff for a living and guild advancement), hunters guild ("bounties" on critter hunting like the fighters guild has on cyrodil bandits as well as hide farming), surveyors guild (daily missions to visit landmarks?)... I am sure there are more ideas one could think up...
...and yes, it might cost skill points that way, but I found the game has an ample supply of those, and they can always add more in coming regions (or actually give out some for doing those professions enough). I'd gladly spand some of my characters skill points on flavor if I could...3 -
RDMyers65b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭For me, I separate the game into two separate things. There is the ooc game (that is playing the game) and the IC game (the RP). While the ooc game, one of my characters is a combaty skilled templar, in the IC, she is a pacifistic priestess/scholarly type. It works for me.
But then I go to the Dregs and two of the 'inhabitants' were arguing that they both were the Vestige. *facepalm*2 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I am okay with putting more into the game for roleplayers, but I do not like the idea of removing incentives in order to convince people to roleplay. Add more for roleplayers, but do not take anything away from those that do not want to roleplay.V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)0 -
MornaBaine✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭timidobserver wrote: »I am okay with putting more into the game for roleplayers, but I do not like the idea of removing incentives in order to convince people to roleplay. Add more for roleplayers, but do not take anything away from those that do not want to roleplay.
I don't think anyone has ever asked that anything be taken away from those who simply like to "play the game" as is and are not at all interested in roleplay. What I DO see happening is that whenever anyone dares to ask for things that enhance roleplay there's a sudden avalanche of people telling them to basically shut up and that ZOS dare not "waste" resources on doing ANYTHING for roleplayers because they (non-RPers) think that will somehow deprive them of content they want.PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!4 -
Firellight✭✭✭Harleyquinceyeb17_ESO wrote: »I could write dozens of pages on this subject as I was a player of Ultima Online for 10 years (pretty much spot on), first on official servers and later on custom RP servers where talking OOC was a bannable offense.
Let me instead put this very simple:
It's a comatose patient. If you want to revive the experience of meaningful RP you will have to do it yourself and start it. Don't rely on others, be it developers or players, to do it for you and to do it right. Think this is impossible? Nope. Let me give you an actual example:
Ultima Online had this problem as well to some degree. RP was dying out when a large fraction of RP-interested players, some dozen oldschool RP veterans and some random supporters united in a cooperative and formed several guilds. With these they took over a city that few players usually visited and declared it RP-country. They made up a guild that focused on playing city guards for example, other guilds were nefarious evildoers, others were forming this or that (myself? I invented one of the first player-run brothels in western MMOs.. yeah I do live in the gutter and it's comfy, thanks) and in the end there was a good dozen of guilds and around 130-150 players constantly coming to the same town for RP. We even invented a system how to see if someone's RPing or taking a break - whoever was taking abreak simply put on a green robe and got ignored from there on until he removed it.
Not a single MMO I have seen, heard of or read about could match the depth of the RP in UO from what I know, it involved players letting themselves be taken captive, character deaths, crippling, heroic battles, lots and lots of tavern rp (and quite some brothel activity!) and pretty much everything else befitting its setting. The only issue it had was some Mary Sues and Marty Stus, aka the I-am-so-speshul-my-mommy-said-I-can-be-anything-so-I-became-an-attention-seeker (I'm looking at you 20% drow, 40% dwarven, 10% human, 25% orc and 5% vampire breed mixes.......but hey one can always ignore such players).
Be the change you want to see in the world.
You can have an RP system like this in one of the buff campaigns. Have law enforcement be in the dominant faction, passive villagers in another, and all the necromancer/daedric/thief groups and guilds in the third faction. Guards have specific uniforms, villagers wear light armour, etc. Any vampires and werewolves will be discouraged, and stuff like that.
It will be a lot better once the housing system arrives, whenever that moment happens.
Suggestion for ZoS: Allow Emperors to be able to declare player outlaws, such as daedra-worshiping people in their own faction. They can give rights to other players, who then have the power to give certain rights to lesser members.Edited by Firellight on December 28, 2014 9:06PM0 -
Morana✭✭✭This is something that SWG had that no other MMORPG has matched to date.
*snip for brevity*
Modern gaming has become, at every turn, an e-sport, and the constantly competetive environment therein does not promote nonaggressive social interaction between players.
We will likely never see another MMO like SWG again, and it really saddens me. I would love to see more that enhances the "RP" of MMORPG and encourages people to be a part of Tamriel rather than just ride the ride through it.2 -
Harleyquincey✭✭✭As I said before.. no need for it to be done by the developers and you also don't even need to do it in a PVP scenario. There is so many many little holdings and towns and villages all over the place - why not grab some fellow alliance RP enthusiasts and claim it as RP country?
Sadly many people lack the will to do this and instead rely on the, at least to me, boring and never sufficient "solution" getting it handled by devs.
No developer can ever match the intricate details of the 3 year RP campaign me and my mates are roleplaying each saturday evening on a platform elsewhere, it's simply impossible and I am well aware of it - so if I still needed a RP fix, I'd do what I did 3 years ago: find fellow roleplayers and set up a storyline and go with it.
EU Server
Clavius Lydoris Probus - Imperial Dragonknight Tank
Co-Founder of [Black Manticore Brigade]
Proud member of [Sigma Draconis] and [House Zar]0 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭MornaBaine wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »I am okay with putting more into the game for roleplayers, but I do not like the idea of removing incentives in order to convince people to roleplay. Add more for roleplayers, but do not take anything away from those that do not want to roleplay.
I don't think anyone has ever asked that anything be taken away from those who simply like to "play the game" as is and are not at all interested in roleplay. What I DO see happening is that whenever anyone dares to ask for things that enhance roleplay there's a sudden avalanche of people telling them to basically shut up and that ZOS dare not "waste" resources on doing ANYTHING for roleplayers because they (non-RPers) think that will somehow deprive them of content they want.
"Attention developers: try not to overincentivize your content; people are more inclined to go for the incentives and brush off the content, which is likely to be a burden to reach the players' goals."
^This is a quote from the original post is what I was referring to. It translates to removing or reducing incentives which is indeed asking for something to be taken away. I am all for adding mechanics that enhance roleplay, but the incentives for playing the game should remain as they are for those that have no interest in Roleplaying.Edited by timidobserver on December 28, 2014 10:19PMV16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)0 -
knightblaster✭✭✭This is the tension between the virtual world model and the "game" model.
The earliest MMOs were all virtual world. You "played" in the world, but it was not designed like a traditional "game" with a path to follow, set rewards and so on. It appealed to the early adopter crowd, which was more niche and more virtual world oriented, which of course involves a lot of roleplay. Examples of this were UO, SWG, EVE, DAoC to a lesser extent.
The other model is that of playing a competitive game in a backdropped world. That's the WoW model, and it has a huge popularity because it appeals to *gamers* rather than virtual world enthusiasts. Gamers like "gamey" designs that they can min/max, best other players, get tangible rewards if they grind and outperform others and so on. That was Blizzard's contribution to the MMO industry: bringing in all of the gamers, and displacing the virtual world fans.
At this point I don't think you can design around it. ESO is very much designed around stories, slower play, immersion. It doesn't matter, though, because the MMO playerbase is now mostly gamers, and mostly not virtual world enthusiasts. (Note: by "gamer" here, I mean people who prefer competitive games, aren't interested that much in virtual worlds other than as a backdrop when they are competing/advancing, and play games in many different genres, including in many cases console games). That is what the population of the playerbase looks like now. So even if you design a game around slower play and lore, people will still blitz through it, because they are *gamers* and as gamers they want to blitz through it and outcompete. That is not a knock on this style, by the way -- it's just what they find fun. But the issue is that they so dwarf the virtual world fans at this point that even in games that are designed more for virtual world fans, they still dominate the culture of the game. It's just a numbers issue at this point.2 -
JamilaRaj✭✭✭✭✭
✭You'll notice most games now try to drop the 'RPG' from the MMORPG tag as it cuts out all that pesky problem and means they have a vastly reduced workload.
While I did not notice, it's commendable progress if true, because absence of any RP component whatsoever was nowhere as absolute as in MMORPGs. One day, they may even go further and label it as Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shops. Theat would be awesome!Firellight wrote: »If we are going to help ESO and other MMOs be more successful, it's not only going to take complaints and suggestions for more content, players are going to have to change the MMORPG mindset...
I'd say developers need to change their mindset. If the game rewards playstyle along the lines "what is the best race for DK" or "let's check youtube how to beat that boss" and punishes actual role-play, exploration and what not, then lifeless, dull game is inevitable result.1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You'll notice most games now try to drop the 'RPG' from the MMORPG tag as it cuts out all that pesky problem and means they have a vastly reduced workload.
While I did not notice, it's commendable progress if true, because absence of any RP component whatsoever was nowhere as absolute as in MMORPGs. One day, they may even go further and label it as Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shops. Theat would be awesome!Firellight wrote: »If we are going to help ESO and other MMOs be more successful, it's not only going to take complaints and suggestions for more content, players are going to have to change the MMORPG mindset...
I'd say developers need to change their mindset. If the game rewards playstyle along the lines "what is the best race for DK" or "let's check youtube how to beat that boss" and punishes actual role-play, exploration and what not, then lifeless, dull game is inevitable result.
I have to agree, games these days are leaning more & more towards the "Action" genre, than RPG.
This is especially true with MMOs, ESO being a prime example, or would you say you're able to play a certain role with your character in PvP, when it is not only possible, but encouraged that you play all of them at the same time (healer, tank & DPS)?
Also, the Elder Scrolls series in whole is leaning more & more towards the "Action" genre, and less towards RPG.
For proof of that, you only need to look at all the removed skills, attributes, armour slots/types (clothing beneath armour), addition of level scaling etc when looking at Morrowind->Skyrim (I haven't played Arena/Daggerfall, so cant comment on those).
Personal take: I believe it has to do with lazy developers & the fact that it is much easier/faster (cheaper) to dumb down games than make them more complex (and interesting, imo) with RPG elements.2 -
JamilaRaj✭✭✭✭✭
✭This is especially true with MMOs, ESO being a prime example, or would you say you're able to play a certain role with your character in PvP, when it is not only possible, but encouraged that you play all of them at the same time (healer, tank & DPS)?
I'd say for ability to play a role is irrelevant whether game has, say, soft classes as ESO, where all it takes to change from DD to healer is to swap weapons or a a few skills on bar, or hard classes where there is no way e.g. to do any healing unless one happens to be <healer class>. Lineage 2 is example of game of the latter type where your role is determined by choice of class and and role in a group pretty much implies particular class for it as well. Despite this, the game lacks any RP elements whatsoever and revolves around boxing and cash shop.
From gameplay point of view, soft classes have advantage in that friends can (more) easily form a group to do something, no "damn, we are 4 for dungeon, but no one of us is <class>, mmkay, let's sit in town and skim through forums instead". ESO strikes me as designed to avoid precisely this.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭This is especially true with MMOs, ESO being a prime example, or would you say you're able to play a certain role with your character in PvP, when it is not only possible, but encouraged that you play all of them at the same time (healer, tank & DPS)?
I'd say for ability to play a role is irrelevant whether game has, say, soft classes as ESO, where all it takes to change from DD to healer is to swap weapons or a a few skills on bar, or hard classes where there is no way e.g. to do any healing unless one happens to be <healer class>. Lineage 2 is example of game of the latter type where your role is determined by choice of class and and role in a group pretty much implies particular class for it as well. Despite this, the game lacks any RP elements whatsoever and revolves around boxing and cash shop.
From gameplay point of view, soft classes have advantage in that friends can (more) easily form a group to do something, no "damn, we are 4 for dungeon, but no one of us is <class>, mmkay, let's sit in town and skim through forums instead". ESO strikes me as designed to avoid precisely this.
If that only was the case, that you could swap roles only by changing skills on your bar. If this was the case, then you would be able to play a role & change your role when out of combat. If.
The reality is, that people with heals & dmg shields on their bar are dealing just as much dmg as people without, and with S&B equipped are able to tank ridiculous amounts of damage for very long times.
I'm sure you've met these "tank healer dps" people in Cyrodiil, they never have to change skills on their bar or equip different weapons, since they are able to play all the three roles already with their setups.
The only time you change your skills in Cyrodiil, is if you want to slot a specific counter against a specific opponent (you still keep all the tanking/healing/dps skills though).
How you described Lineage class system is actually very RPGish, but I haven't played the game so of course it could be otherwise lacking.
I'm also not saying the ESO class system itself with more freedom is bad, but the implementation sure leaves a lot to be desired (atleast in PvP).
In short: ability to change your role when you wish = good, while ability to play all the roles (at their full potential) at the same time=bad
P.S. 75% of my day still consists of reading forums while trying to find groups for pledges / Undaunted helm farming.1 -
JamilaRaj✭✭✭✭✭
✭While there are viable hybrid builds and could be even said they are overall superior to builds designed for single task, their performance in particular areas is still limited, last but not least because number of slots is also limited.
I don't know what exactly you mean by tank/healer/dps, but standard issue DK can heal himself and that is about it.
I change skills on Cyrodiil to fit given task rather then opponent and also depending on whether I am in a group or not. Ironically, the fact one pretty much has to have shields & heals on bar further limits number of slots and how many situations or how well one can handle.
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭While there are viable hybrid builds and could be even said they are overall superior to builds designed for single task, their performance in particular areas is still limited, last but not least because number of slots is also limited.
I don't know what exactly you mean by tank/healer/dps, but standard issue DK can heal himself and that is about it.
I change skills on Cyrodiil to fit given task rather then opponent and also depending on whether I am in a group or not. Ironically, the fact one pretty much has to have shields & heals on bar further limits number of slots and how many situations or how well one can handle.
The fact that one has shields or heals on bar makes this person a healer. The S&B and ability to block forever makes him a tank. The ability to deal equal DPS to those with different setups makes this person a DPS.
No cooldowns means you need only one or two types of damaging skills & one or two types of heals/shields, since you can spam them.
Thus "tank healer dps" is the only real viable role in PvP (PvE is a different story).Edited by DDuke on December 29, 2014 1:52PM1
