Play the way you want?

Gyudan

lordrichter wrote: »

This is why I don't think players should be allowed to see the actual numbers that happen during combat.

Then how could players improve if they don't know how well they are doing?
How would they select gear if they can't decide which one is the most effective?

ers101284b14_ESO

If they exclude you get a new group. I don't run with people who worry about numbers or force others into a build.

xMovingTarget

lordrichter wrote: »

This is why I don't think players should be allowed to see the actual numbers that happen during combat.

So, because this way you just fail in trials and you dont even know why?

Zorrashi

I sympathies with those who are excluded from certain dungeons, but trails are in a league of their own and were not designed to be completed by "just anybody".

The tank/heavy armor dude could have had the best skills in the game that gave him among the highest survivability/damage rate for his build, but I don't expect most trial groups to give him the chance to prove it. I mean, the guy, if he was indeed a skilled player would practically be a rarity. Only thing is, it is hard to determine that value from looks alone. Sort of like being unable to identify a small meteorite filled with precious metal from the other useless common sediment that surrounds it. If he was asked to perform kills in front of the guild leader on the other hand...

But other than that, for regular dungeons and the like, then I all I can really say is that I feel sorry for them and perhaps a teensy bit annoyed at whoever excluded them. These feeling may not apply to the same extent for VR-mode dungeons though. I would still feel a tad bit sad and annoyed, but I understand that the difficulty requires a bit of expectations from others.

Baconfat79

Just be grateful that you can't examine other players' gear in ESO. The exclusivity would be way worse. In FFXI, for example, if you joined a good group as a pick-up player, they would all check your gear the second you arrived, and kick you if it was sub-par. At least in ESO there is a little wiggle room there. Sure, you'll get kicked for trying to DPS in 7/7 heavy and 1H+shield, but at least you won't get kicked for not having the exactly optimal jewellery set or not having that rare set that drops from Sanctum. It could be MUCH worse.

Reverb

People who use an atypical build are playing the way they want; and people who only want to group with known, role based builds are playing the way they want; and people who like to group with friends and guildies regardless of skill level are playing the way they want; and those who will only run trials with players who have already completed them and have proven that they understand the mechanics are playing the way they want...you see where I'm going with this.

The other day I was recruited as a healer for vet spindle, I didn't know when I agreed that the group was 3 dps and no tank. Not gonna lie, some parts were really tough nobody to hold aggro, and I was challenged by everybody splitting up and using range, and somebody was always out of healing range. There were more deaths than I would've been ok with in a more competitive team,but we were successful and had fun.

My point is that there will be grouping opportunities for every situation. If anybody is excluded for their build without getting a chance to prove themselves, they need to keep looking.

xMovingTarget

Zorrashi wrote: »

The tank/heavy armor dude could have had the best skills in the game that gave him among the highest survivability/damage rate for his build, but I don't expect most trial groups to give him the chance to prove it.

There´s no need to prove. The best player cant do it. You simply cant pull off decent DPS with 1h/shield in heavy armor. Its just not possible. Same person could just switch to medium armor and dualwield, then he can go DPS.

You guys need to get out of your one Role if you struggle with it. All the Tanks in my Guild or friends i do dungeons etc with have a DPS set. So they can go from tank to DPS very quick.

In this game you can be everything on 1 character. To a certain extend of course. But even DPS Templars are viable. If we have enough healers but more than enough templars, we let do damage. No big deal. We even get through Sanctum with dps temps.

Just be flexible. Helps you alot in this game with getting into content

timidobserver

So, there is nothing that ZOS can do to make players accept you. The only person that can do that is you by finding out what is expected of you to be a part of the group and learning how to fulfill that expectation.

You should really pay attention to what I am saying instead of immediately going defensive. Nothing that ZOS can do will make other players let you into their groups.

The good news is that you do not have to use a destruction staff. There are a number of very viable Dual-Wield and Two-hander medium armor builds out there depending on your class.

MissBizz

Its the players that exclude you, not the game. Find a guild, find friendlier players. We all wish it wasnt this way, but it is.

Elsonso

Gyudan wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

This is why I don't think players should be allowed to see the actual numbers that happen during combat.

Then how could players improve if they don't know how well they are doing?
How would they select gear if they can't decide which one is the most effective?

xMovingTarget wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

This is why I don't think players should be allowed to see the actual numbers that happen during combat.

So, because this way you just fail in trials and you dont even know why?

It is stupid to think that (the game is deliberately designed so that) players have to use an elite build from a small set of elite builds in order to succeed at trials. I am not certain whether that is fact because the game is out of balance, obsession with numbers on the part of players, or both. I know that things are out of balance and that the balance is constantly changing as they tweak things, but I also know that people do like to compare numbers, even when the numbers are not as important as people want them to be.

Part of me is also thinking that it should not be so easy to actually create an elite build and that the reason that this is easy is the availability of the raw numbers.

AlexDelta

The easiest solution for that is finding a guild that is also just playing for fun and not taking the game too serious. Or just try to find other players that are just playing for fun in game. Never had any problems to do this actually. Personally I have no idea what a good build is supposed to be like and I don't really care.

Drasn

Think of your gear/build like a resume for people who haven't played with you before. They don't know you or what you are capable of and when you show up to DPS in heavy armor, well, that speaks volumes. The people you are trying to group with want some assurance that they can rely on you to do your part, they don't want to strap on back-braces and carry you through an instance.

lordrichter wrote: »

This is why I don't think players should be allowed to see the actual numbers that happen during combat.

That's a cute concept, however, bads are bad and we don't need numbers to let us know that.

I really don't care about hurting someones feelings by kicking them from group, because odds are they didn't care that they were about to waste at least 3 other peoples time. There is a time and a place to run your special snowflake build and it won't be found in group content(especially with people that have no idea who you are.)

TehMagnus

DeLindsay wrote: »

I've been excluded from a couple Dungeon runs in my ESO time just for being a Vampire because the Healer "refused to heal a Vampire".

Well, that's ... just... racist...

Vahrokh

DeLindsay wrote: »

ZoS, Trion, Blizzard or any other game company cannot change this. Even if they did everything in their power to make all build/gear combos to do the exact same DPS/HPS there would still be players who refuse to allow this or that build in their group just because they don't like it.

No developer can change human's nature. Which in turn is nature's nature. That is, to continuously strive to optimize and improve and compete over it.

You'll see the same min maxing habits in a flock of ducks.


For similar reasons, there's also this other issue, where you can't get into a trial group to kill the bosses your first time, because the pre-requisite they all put is to have already killed them in the past (aka: "link achievement").

The latter is still "coming from nature" and is usually attached to defensive, herd thinking people with low self-confidence enough to believe they can't make it with 1 guy performing less than the rest of the herd.

Vahrokh

Baconfat79 wrote: »

Just be grateful that you can't examine other players' gear in ESO. The exclusivity would be way worse. In FFXI, for example, if you joined a good group as a pick-up player, they would all check your gear the second you arrived, and kick you if it was sub-par. At least in ESO there is a little wiggle room there. Sure, you'll get kicked for trying to DPS in 7/7 heavy and 1H+shield, but at least you won't get kicked for not having the exactly optimal jewellery set or not having that rare set that drops from Sanctum. It could be MUCH worse.

You forgot to add how in other games they'd would also check every single achievement of yours and kick you if you had a "suspicious" low number of high level PvE achievements.

Petros

My statement is this...

IF a group/raid isn't inviting a heavy armor s&b (tank (And I'm aware a tank doesn't have to be in heavy)) in with them...then I think the other 3-11 players might need to sharpen their own skills to dps more.

hutchinsonhatch

Lucas.interlichnrb18_ESO wrote: »

Players are being excluded from trials and dungeon parties because the way they play is not considered "optimal" by other players. For example: A player in full heavy armor and one hand and shield can't do trials because everyone requires that the same player wears light armor with a destruction staff...This is just an example. The situation is very bad right now, if ESO is all about "Play the way you want and be who you want to be" why are those players excluded for playing the way they want. This post is not to be seem as a "Rage post", this is to demonstrate the situation right now. I've have never been excluded from a group myself and I'm always welcome at trials and dungeon groups. I speak for those that are suffering right now when trying to do dungeons and trials...

Unfortunately, I have to agree with you, but this is not an ESO-exclusive phenomenom. The same bull is going on in any other MMO out there.
Of course, you don't need to wear light armor and wield a staff to get the job done.
I'm not deperate enough to deal with these folks, yet. When the time comes, I'm going to build a guild from scratch that excludes and kicks anyone even mentioning that he thought about the tank being more effective with a stick and cloth

hutchinsonhatch

lordrichter wrote: »

This is why I don't think players should be allowed to see the actual numbers that happen during combat.

I think, that was ZOS intention from the very beginning, until someone came up with an add-on to please the "other ones".

D3usEX

lordrichter wrote: »

This is why I don't think players should be allowed to see the actual numbers that happen during combat.

This is why people with such mentality never complete Trials and Dungeons(or if they do.. takes them s**t loads of time).

hutchinsonhatch

PBpsy wrote: »

There is no such thing as a Heavy armor S&B/2H dps no matter how hard people want it or try to make it work or what class are you using . What they usually get is a terrible tank that can't taunt and this it how it should be. If you try to PUG you will however see many of these usually low health DKs that think that flame whip is actually doing good damage and have tendency to just freaking chain pull as much trash out of the AOE and ultimates as possible instead of pulling it in the AOE and ultimates. There are few thing more funny and painfull then to be the DPS in group with next to one of these builds and fight Grobull , Imiril ,Praxin with V12 scaling . Can you get trough them with one in your group ? Yes but it usually requires the second dps and true tank to be excellent and the heals to be an awesome wizard,

I don't want to sound harsh, I do that often enough, but I find your statement to be amazing and interesting.
What you say is that you (general, not personal) prefer to play with people who are not good enough to excel in the intended roles and instead build their ego upon builds and characters that even a monkey could play and in the end pat their shoulders and say, "we rocked".
Think about that for a moment...

Is the game too hard in trials for the average player that these concessions have to be made?

PBpsy

pete5210b14_ESO wrote: »

My statement is this...

IF a group/raid isn't inviting a heavy armor s&b (tank (And I'm aware a tank doesn't have to be in heavy)) in with them...then I think the other 3-11 players might need to sharpen their own skills to dps more.

So let's see, you want the rest of those 11 players to go even deeper into their optimization which sometimes will mean playing builds that can be just a bit better but they might not enjoy as much compared to their already viable builds.I actual am in this position, I know how to get another 100 -200 dps on my NB but I don't like to use that build and I am already doing enough to maybe pick up some slack from another player. It's kind strange that the already viable people have to change the way they play so that they can carry one that isn't viable so that they can play the way they want.

hutchinsonhatch wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

There is no such thing as a Heavy armor S&B/2H dps no matter how hard people want it or try to make it work or what class are you using . What they usually get is a terrible tank that can't taunt and this it how it should be. If you try to PUG you will however see many of these usually low health DKs that think that flame whip is actually doing good damage and have tendency to just freaking chain pull as much trash out of the AOE and ultimates as possible instead of pulling it in the AOE and ultimates. There are few thing more funny and painfull then to be the DPS in group with next to one of these builds and fight Grobull , Imiril ,Praxin with V12 scaling . Can you get trough them with one in your group ? Yes but it usually requires the second dps and true tank to be excellent and the heals to be an awesome wizard,

I don't want to sound harsh, I do that often enough, but I find your statement to be amazing and interesting.
What you say is that you (general, not personal) prefer to play with people who are not good enough to excel in the intended roles and instead build their ego upon builds and characters that even a monkey could play and in the end pat their shoulders and say, "we rocked".
Think about that for a moment...

Is the game too hard in trials for the average player that these concessions have to be made?

Oh . Look someone who doesn't know what they are talking about but chooses to be snide and insulting. I really can't fathom how did you manage to interpret my post as you did. I am sorry but there is absolutely no difference between playing different builds.It all comes down to pressing at most 5 buttons, so any build can be played by any monkey by design (because the monkeys screamed for 5 skill tabs). The monkey holding block and pressing the flame whip button in place when it said they are going to dps most definitely is not in any way smarter then the monkey that stays mobile and uses the impulse/steel tornado when he should and change to good single target dps when he should. They are however free to feel as superior misunderstood persecuted special monkeys and continue to pat themselves in the back for being very smart and original monkeys when the have failed to complete a monkey dungeon at the first boss monkey with their intelligent monkey build that completely ignores the way that monkey group content is designed..

I am a monkey that prefers to play with monkeys that actually understand and are prepared to fill their role and for dps this game this means to have good single and AOE capabilities and to know when to change between them depending on the situation.It is even better when the monkey knows what the target priorities are and knows how to interrupt.It is actually a pleasure to DPS when you have another good dpsing monkey next to you.

Gilvoth

Lucas.interlichnrb18_ESO wrote: »

Players are being excluded from trials and dungeon parties because the way they play is not considered "optimal" by other players. For example: A player in full heavy armor and one hand and shield can't do trials because everyone requires that the same player wears light armor with a destruction staff...This is just an example. The situation is very bad right now, if ESO is all about "Play the way you want and be who you want to be" why are those players excluded for playing the way they want. This post is not to be seem as a "Rage post", this is to demonstrate the situation right now. I've have never been excluded from a group myself and I'm always welcome at trials and dungeon groups. I speak for those that are suffering right now when trying to do dungeons and trials...

this is just "One" reason i HATE pve and grouping with people. i prefer solo,
i have a full list of reasons but this one in piticular is definately noteworthy on the list and near the top.

AngryNord

Rosveen wrote: »

What in the world possessed you to queue as a dps in full heavy with a shield?

My guess is it was the wording, "Play as you want". I might be mistaken, of course.

AshySamurai

AngryNord wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

What in the world possessed you to queue as a dps in full heavy with a shield?

My guess is it was the wording, "Play as you want". I might be mistaken, of course.

IMO play as you want doesn't mean that you can do all you want (like have high dps with s&b). It means if you want to have more survivability, you can use s&b regardless of your race or class. If you want to have more dps, you can use other weapon. And you can freely switch from one role to another.

PBpsy

AshySamurai wrote: »

AngryNord wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

What in the world possessed you to queue as a dps in full heavy with a shield?

My guess is it was the wording, "Play as you want". I might be mistaken, of course.

IMO play as you want doesn't mean that you can do all you want (like have high dps with s&b). It means if you want to have more survivability, you can use s&b regardless of your race or class. If you want to have more dps, you can use other weapon. And you can freely switch from one role to another.

One of my favorite aspects of the game is how well this game actually achieves what you just said. It is amazing how easy one can move from doing different roles. The game offer a lot of flexibility but "the play the way you want" is too often interpreted you can be as stubbornly rigid as you want

mazrimtaimxpreub18_ESO

I feel the game is very much "Play as you want." You can take any class/race combination and fulfill any role you want (granted some combinations are better than others). I don't think when ZOS said "Play as you want" that they intended DPS classes to use the tools of a TANK. You wouldn't use heavy armor and shield for DPS any more than you would use them for healing. If you like the feel and appearance of heavy armor but heavy armor does not suit the role you want to play then pick one of the many costumes out there that will give you the appearance you are looking for without compromising your ability to fill your role.

Group PVE in this game is intended to be a team effort. There is a reason you can mark yourself Tank, DPS, or Healer. If you say you are going to DPS for the group... then the group is going to count on you to fulfill that role. They NEED you to fulfill that role. So take one for the team and bring the equipment you need to fill the role you claim you are going to fill.

I don't believe anybody is booting you out of a group for spite. They are booting you because they need vinegar and all you brought was sugar.

kongkim

Or being excluded from trials as you have a summon pet in your skill bar....

Many people find a build they like to play with and don't play around with 30 other skills. I do understand that you can come if you are tanky and there is need for DPS.
But many time people get excluded fore not having the build others think is the best.

And that is annoying.

kelly.medleyb14_ESO

Lucas.interlichnrb18_ESO wrote: »

Players are being excluded from trials and dungeon parties because the way they play is not considered "optimal" by other players. For example: A player in full heavy armor and one hand and shield can't do trials because everyone requires that the same player wears light armor with a destruction staff...This is just an example. The situation is very bad right now, if ESO is all about "Play the way you want and be who you want to be" why are those players excluded for playing the way they want. This post is not to be seem as a "Rage post", this is to demonstrate the situation right now. I've have never been excluded from a group myself and I'm always welcome at trials and dungeon groups. I speak for those that are suffering right now when trying to do dungeons and trials...

^ ROFL just ROFL.

WhiskyBob

Besides I don't believe players being locked out. With current state of the game AA and HRC is so bloody easy many people just get dragged through like a hooker on rohypnol.

They get their loot because few v. good dps make up for nerf-gun dps of those in lol-builds.

And then I have veteran 14 player in vet. dungeon, with some AA gear, asking me what a dodge roll is. Or vet14 in almost full trial medium armor asking me how to break free.

Magdalina

There are some elitist jerks out there for sure, but there's a difference between elitism and common sense. Your character is yours to play how you want. You can do this throughout 16 solo zones(+starter ones) and you have every right to do so. If you wanna play heavy armor with a staff just for the looks - it's your character and I'll be the last person to judge you(also, I really like the looks of heavy armor myself).

But that story changes in group instances, especially vet dungeons and Trials. You're no longer on your own and your groupmates are going to rely on you to perform a certain role(because that's how group instances work). If you cannot perform this role(well enough), it's very possible(especially in vet dungeons) your group will fail and be unable to complete the instance - or it will be insanely difficult and your teammates with more optimal builds will have to carry you through. There is a wider variety of builds than most people think, really - I know a guy who does way over 1k dps in 5 pc heavy, awesome sorc tank, absolutely OP magicka-based tank etc, but these people put a lot of effort into making these builds work. A lot of people are willing to teach if others are willing to listen, too - but more often than not it's "play the way I want or die" attitude and players that refuse to discuss their playstyle(in constructive discussion, mind you I try to be nice as long as I can) even when it's obviously lacking something to complete the instance.

In places like vet dungeons, "play the way you want" for most people includes being able to complete the place without wiping for 4 hours. If it's obvious a player isn't capable of that, well...you get what you get.

Not saying having a bigger variety of viable builds wouldn't be nice, but atm things are what they are and frankly it's a bit selfish to think other players should have to carry you through and go offended when they don't.